Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

[TransmutingSoul]

When a Hindu has a different view, he \ she gives valid reasons. Absurd views are not accepted. Only the ignorant and gullible accept that. We have a whole 'darshana' (philosophy) devoted to 'nyāya' to check views.

"Nyāya, literally means "rules", "method" or "judgment". It is also the name of one of the six orthodox (astika) schools of Hinduism. This school's most significant contributions to Indian philosophy was systematic development of the theory of logic, methodology, and its treatises on epistemology."

To assume a view is Absurd, one must think they have a superior view? Are you suggesting now, that some Hindu thoughts are more valid than others?

Are you not supporting what is in offer, as valid reasons are given, that one does not agree with the valid reasons does not mean they are not valid.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Really! I thought Bahaullah said that Jesus is not the Son of Allah. In that case who was the spouse of Allah -Mary? But Mary was not married at that time and I think she was just 16 years of age. Did Allah then commit child rape?
But Quran says Allah has no spouse.
Did Bahaullah say that he was Allah? Al-Badi'? The creator?
I just cant understand Bahais. Such weird statements!

Well you’ve totally deserved your winner status with that post. The Baha’i Faith agrees with Christianity that Jesus was the ‘Son of God’ yet the Quran clearly states He wasn’t at all. Then we have the absence of a consort and the implications of a Heavenly Father impregnating an innocent child and a virgin too. Then Bahá’u’lláh contradicts Himself by claiming to be a mere man one moment and God Himself the next.

Hold on a minute, isn’t one of the Avatars of Vishnu a fish!? Don’t Hindus believe in many gods yet you believe in none. Go figure!

 

[Terry Sampson]

It is already well answered in Quran authored by Allah/G-d:

Does Allah have a short memory? Or did he say but Muhammad forgot?

• Deuteronomy Chapter 14:
  • You are children of the LORD your God.
• 2 Samuel, Chapter 7:
  • 8 "Further, say thus to My servant David: Thus said the LORD of Hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the flock, to be ruler of My people Israel,
  • 9 and I have been with you wherever you went, ...
  • 12 When your days are done and you lie with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue, and I will establish his kingship.
  • 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish his royal throne forever.
  • 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me.
• Psalm, Chapter 2:
  • 7 Let me tell of the decree:t he LORD said to me, "You are My son, I have fathered you this day.

Or perhaps, as I believe, Allah, who has no name, and Judaism and Christianity's God, who has a name, are not the same?

• Psalm, Chapter 72:
  • 4 Sing to God, chant hymns to His name; extol Him who rides the clouds; the LORD is His name. Exult in His presence, the father of orphans, the champion of widows, God, in His holy habitation.
• Wisdom of Solomon
  • Chapter 1:
    • 16 But the ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away and made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his company.
  • Chapter 2:
    • 1 For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, ...
      
    • 12 ‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
    • 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
    • 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
    • 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
    • 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
    • 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
    • 18 for if the righteous man is God’s child, He will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries
    • 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, so that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance
    • 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.’
    • 21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them,
    • 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hoped for the wages of holiness, nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;
    • 23 for God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of His own eternity,
    • 24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In regards Jesus being the Son of God from a Baha'i perspective, I posted the following on RF a while back as to how Jesus is the spiritual 'Son of God' as opposed to not being the physical 'son of God' as outlined in the Holy Quran:

The Baha'i Faith is arguably the newest of the world religions having been founded by Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) 1817-1892.

He taught that there is One God whose essence is unknowable.

Humanity is one, and all the main religions are inspired by God.

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'í Faith and the unity of religion - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah speaks of the underlying purpose of religion:

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."

And the unity of religion:

"…the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

The Challenge therefore is to appreciate what all the recognised religions have in common and better understand the apparent contradictions or inconsistencies. Shoghi Effendi, the leader of the Baha'i Faith from 1921-1957 stated in regards to Christ:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost...” Shoghi Effendi

How does the designation 'Son of God' assist us to understand the Spiritual Reality of Christ AND the underlying unity of religion?

Lets look at the key verses:

In Matthew 1:18-25 it is written:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ”The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”-- which means, “God with us.” When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

We know from the Baha'i writings that the virgin birth is upheld as a Divine mystery.

We also consider
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life." John 3:16

This is important to emphasise Jesus' Uniqueness and Greatness in contrast with the quote we are all sons of God.

The phrase Sons of God and Children of God are used many times through both the Old and New Testaments.

Sons of God: Genesis 6:2, Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galatians 3:26

Children of God: John 1:12, John 11:52, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:21, Romans 9:8

The significance of John 3:16 in contrast to these other verses along with the story of the virgin birth clearly sets Jesus apart from ordinary men. So the 'Son of God' designation highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.

However other religions may also have different designations such as Moses being the 'Friend of God', Muhammad being the 'Seal of the Prophets' or Baha'u'llah being the 'Glory of God'. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, morals, and even civilisations.

Therefore the 'Son of God' designation of Jesus is consistent with the underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'

 

[paarsurrey]

Does Allah have a short memory? Or did he say but Muhammad forgot?

• Deuteronomy Chapter 14:
  • You are children of the LORD your God.
• 2 Samuel, Chapter 7:
  • 8 "Further, say thus to My servant David: Thus said the LORD of Hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the flock, to be ruler of My people Israel,
  • 9 and I have been with you wherever you went, ...
  • 12 When your days are done and you lie with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue, and I will establish his kingship.
  • 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish his royal throne forever.
  • 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me.
• Psalm, Chapter 2:
  • 7 Let me tell of the decree:t he LORD said to me, "You are My son, I have fathered you this day.

Or perhaps, as I believe, Allah, who has no name, and Judaism and Christianity's God, who has a name, are not the same?

• Psalm, Chapter 72:
  • 4 Sing to God, chant hymns to His name; extol Him who rides the clouds; the LORD is His name. Exult in His presence, the father of orphans, the champion of widows, God, in His holy habitation.
• Wisdom of Solomon
  • Chapter 1:
    • 16 But the ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away and made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his company.
  • Chapter 2:
    • 1 For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, ...
      
    • 12 ‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
    • 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
    • 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
    • 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
    • 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
    • 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
    • 18 for if the righteous man is God’s child, He will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries
    • 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, so that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance
    • 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.’
    • 21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them,
    • 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hoped for the wages of holiness, nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;
    • 23 for God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of His own eternity,
    • 24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

Please quote from Quran.

Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Maybe it's time for someone to ask Allah if He has children?

So, for Bahais, Abdul Baha was the Son of Allah and Shoghi Effendi the great-grandson of Allah.

 

[Aupmanyav]

To assume a view is Absurd, one must think they have a superior view? Are you suggesting now, that some Hindu thoughts are more valid than others?

Are you not supporting what is in offer, as valid reasons are given, that one does not agree with the valid reasons does not mean they are not valid.

Some views would be patently foolish. For example, if you were to say that you are Allah and the creator without providing any evidence. Or is it what you claim! Are Bahaullah's claims any better than that! Or the 'Maid of Heaven' makes all the difference! I have seen umpteen 'Maids of Heaven' in my dreams. Does that make me a manifestation!
That is what is discussed in 'Nyaya' philosophy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, for Bahais, Abdul Baha was the Son of Allah and Shoghi Effendi the great-grandson of Allah.

Baha'u'llah is known as the 'Father'. Abdul'baha who was called by Baha'u'llah "The Mystery of God" interpreted that to mean Abdul'baha, which means 'Servant of Baha'.

All the Messengers are born of the 'Holy Spirit', they are not like us born of clay. In that station, they are all one and all born of a virgin and are all the 'Self of God' amongst us.

At the same time, they say they are and we see, but a man like us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some views would be patently foolish. For example, if you were to say that you are Allah and the creator without providing any evidence. Or is it what you claim! Are Bahaullah's claims any better than that! Or the 'Maid of Heaven' makes all the difference! I have seen umpteen 'Maids of Heaven' in my dreams. Does that make me a manifestation!
That is what is discussed in 'Nyaya' philosophy.

The question about the claims of Baha'u'llah are for you to pursue, if you choose to.

It would be just action to base comments on some knowledge of what Baha'u'llah offered and not what others say He did.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. yet the Quran clearly states He wasn’t at all.

Hold on a minute, isn’t one of the Avatars of Vishnu a fish!? Don’t Hindus believe in many gods yet you believe in none. Go figure!

Then in that case why do you accept Quran as Allah's message and Mohammad as a manifestation of Allah even if it has a false message! You have some surprising convolutions of belief there.

God \ Allah or his messengers \ manifestations or philosophies are not points of conflict in Hinduism. I am an atheist. I am very comfortable with Vinayaka who is a Shaiva or Teresa who is a Vaishnava. What is important in Hinduism is 'Dharma', our duties and our action, and I concur with them on that. We do not insist on one Allah or many, even none is OK with us. We have done away with all reasons of conflict. That is what Abrahamic religions have to learn from Hinduism.

 

[Terry Sampson]

So, for Bahais, Abdul Baha was the Son of Allah and Shoghi Effendi the great-grandson of Allah.

Subject to Baha'i confirmation, I'd say "yes". But I'm pretty sure the Muslims aren't going to agree.

Baha'u'llah's conundrum: According to paarsurrey, Allah doesn't have any children, not even "spiritual" children (cf. Post #25).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Subject to Baha'i confirmation, I'd say "yes". But I'm pretty sure the Muslims aren't going to agree.

Baha'u'llah's conundrum: According to paarsurrey, Allah doesn't have any children, not even "spiritual" children (cf. Post #25).

No Terry.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Then in that case why do you accept Quran as Allah's message and Mohammad as a manifestation of Allah even if it has a false message! You have some surprising convolutions of belief there.

Please refer to my post above.

Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

Muhammad denied God had a physical son.

For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Quran 19:92

As you have correctly asserted Allah did not have a consort.

When Mary, the mother of Jesus asked how she could have a boy as she had been chaste Allah responded:

"Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.
Quran 19:20-21

Clearly Allah did not have a son in the manner you or I would have a son. Allah did not lay a hand on Mary. Thus, the distinction is made between rejection of Allah having a physical son in the Quran and the Father having a spiritual Son in the New Testament. There is no contradiction.

God \ Allah or his messengers \ manifestations are not important in Hinduism. What is important in Hinduism is 'Dharma', our duties and our action. We do not insist on one Allah or many, even none is OK with us. We have done away with all reasons of conflict. That is what Abrahamic religions have to learn from Hinduism.

As Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Avatars are not important in Islam and Christianity. But they are just names and the underlying concepts are similar.

Hinduism must be the most contradictory of the world religions with any number of gods, One God or no god being possible and beyond that almost anything being true. Anything that is except the Abrahamic Faiths.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Thus, the distinction is made between rejection of Allah having a physical son in the Quran and the Father having a spiritual Son in the New Testament. There is no contradiction.

Let's see the Baha'i try to sell that idea to the Muslims. BTW, if you can sneak the Holy Spirit past their gatekeepers, we'll have them well on their way toward Trinitarianism.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Let's see the Baha'i try to sell that idea to the Muslims. BTW, if you can sneak the Holy Spirit past their gatekeepers, we'll have them well on their way toward Trinitarianism.

For Baha'is the problem is Muslim's rejection of the Gospels that has its origins during the medieval period with Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad's writings.

Muslims believe that God revealed to Jesus a new scripture, al-Injīl (the Gospel), while also declaring the truth of the previous revelations: al-Tawrat (the Torah) and al-Zabur (the Psalms). The Quran speaks favorably of al-Injīl, which it describes as a scripture that fills the hearts of its followers with meekness and piety. Traditional Islamic exegesis claiming the biblical message to have been distorted or corrupted (tahrif), is termed ta'yin al-mubham ("resolution of ambiguity").[68] This polemic effort has its origins in the medieval period with Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad's writings.

Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia

Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad - Wikipedia

Once the Christian scripture and Quran is accepted the question of the Sonship isn't difficult to resolve. The Divinity of Christ and Trinity can be resolved too.

OTOH we're not trying to sell anything to anyone. Christians and Muslims will continue to believe as they do. I can't imagine too many Christians or Muslims taking the Baha'is seriously.

 

[Terry Sampson]

the question of the Sonship isn't difficult to resolve.

It was never difficult to begin with. Jesus, his disciples, and the earliest Christians were Jews. The "Our Father" prayer came naturally. But with the decline of Jewish membership and the increased Gentile membership, IMO, Jesus' "sonship" became something other than what it was originally. I note that Mark and John's gospels and Paul's post-crucifixion, -resurrection, and -ascension Jesus make no mention of Jesus' fatherless birth. I suspect that Gentiles added that, being unaware of the oddity of a fatherless male human who doesn't have Y-DNA. Today's traditional Christians commonly argue that the Holy Spirit "created" the Y-DNA necessary in Jesus' conception out of nothing. Islam's Jesus apparently didn't even need Y-DNA.

paarsurrey is just one Muslim, but in spite of his sectarian difference from the Shia and the Sunni, I have difficulty imagining many devout Muslims can transition from Allah-has-no-children to Allah-has-spiritual-children but did not physically conceive a son. In the Qur'an, Allah never even proposes the possibility that the devout can be his children; he's too busy protecting his monotheistic divinity whereas HaShem encourages the belief that humans can be His children.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It was never difficult to begin with. Jesus, his disciples, and the earliest Christians were Jews. The "Our Father" prayer came naturally. But with the decline of Jewish membership and the increased Gentile membership, IMO, Jesus' "sonship" became something other than what it was originally. I note that Mark and John's gospels and Paul's post-crucifixion, -resurrection, and -ascension Jesus make no mention of Jesus' fatherless birth. I suspect that Gentiles added that, being unaware of the oddity of a fatherless male human who doesn't have Y-DNA. Today's traditional Christians commonly argue that the Holy Spirit "created" the Y-DNA necessary in Jesus' conception out of nothing. Islam's Jesus apparently didn't even need Y-DNA.

paarsurrey is just one Muslim, but in spite of his sectarian difference from the Shia and the Sunni, I have difficulty imagining many devout Muslims can transition from Allah-has-no-children to Allah-has-spiritual-children but did not physically conceive a son. In the Qur'an, Allah never even proposes the possibility that the devout can be his children; he's too busy protecting his monotheistic divinity whereas HaShem encourages the belief that humans can be His children.

As far as I can see most Muslims see no need for the New Testament. They have the Quran and Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets, the final Messenger from Allah for all time. They have no need for the Baha’is telling them any differently.

Christ’s audience had the benefit of one and a half thousand years of Mosaic law and HaShem’s guidance through His Prophets. The followers of Muhammad had no such education. They were polytheistic idol worshippers who needed their sorry a***s kicked. It wasn’t the time or place to be told Jesus loves them or they were all sons of God. It was tough love for the Muslims as it needed to be for the Israelites under Moses.

 

[Terry Sampson]

As far as I can see most Muslims see no need for the New Testament.

IMO, that opinion is mutual.

 

[Dawnofhope]

IMO, that opinion is mutual.

I can’t see there is much to be gained by Christians becoming Muslims or Muslims becoming Christians. There are those who convert from one religion to the other of course who extol how much better they are as people for the change. Good luck to them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Please refer to my post above. ..
.. Allah did not lay a hand on Mary.

.. but underlying concepts are similar.

Hinduism must be the most contradictory of the world religions with any number of gods, One God or no god being possible and beyond that almost anything being true. Anything that is except the Abrahamic Faiths.

That was very nice of Allah. But we know scripture quoting as "circular reasoning" (I am not including representative image since you might be well aware of them), since there is no evidence for what is written, in any religion, not just in Abrahamic religions.

If the underlying concepts are similar then what was the need to send messengers again and again, sometimes just after 17 years of the birth of one, Bahaullah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad! Only to increase problems in the world!

Yeah, Hinduism has no prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis. As I mentioned in Hinduism, 'dharma', duties, our actions, are Supreme; Gods \ Goddesses or philosophies are not important. We have left that to individual choice. A person who does not follow his \ her 'dharma' cannot be helped even by Gods.