Who Is an Israelite?

[thomas t]

Lately, I saw in someone's signature that he claims to be an Israelite.
Without being ethnically Israelite.

To me, this comes across as identity grabbing.

Even in the New Testament, Israel is still Israel,
this is at least how I see the issue.

I see it as one big disadvantage for those Bible interpretations who like to do without a literal meaning when it is at least possible to also understand something in a literal way.

All of a sudden they end up claiming to be an "Israelite". They simply took Israel as a metaphor. This is at least how I understand them.

 

[roberto]

Lately, I saw in someone's signature that he claims to be an Israelite.
Without being ethnically Israelite.

To me, this comes across as identity grabbing.

Even in the New Testament, Israel is still Israel,
this is at least how I see the issue.

I see it as one big disadvantage for those Bible interpretations who like to do without a literal meaning when it is at least possible to also understand something in a literal way.

All of a sudden they end up claiming to be an "Israelite". They simply took Israel as a metaphor. This is at least how I understand them.

Thomas,

It has nothing to do with identity grabbing as you state/put it.

Let me explain:

If I were to apply for citizenship of Portugal or America and is granted citizenship, what do I become?

......a Portugese or an American.

So if I apply for citizenship of Israel, what do I become if granted?

......an Israelite.

If you want me to, I can show you Bionically why you are not supposed to call yourself a Christian:

Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth - called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised -
Eph 2:12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra'el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
Eph 2:13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our shalom - he has made us both one and has broken down the m'chitzah which divided us
Eph 2:15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom,
Eph 2:16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
Eph 2:17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby,
Eph 2:18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family.
Eph 2:20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself.
Eph 2:21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord.
Eph 2:22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!

Hope that helped?

 

[thomas t]

If you want me to, I can show you Bionically why you are not supposed to call yourself a Christian.

Actually I call myself a Christian.

If Israel granted you Israeli citizenship, you are an Israeli. Yes.

The moment someone claims: I am Israelite, just for following God's rules (without an ethnic link).... this is identity grabbing, though.
This is how I see it.

 

[roberto]

Actually I call myself a Christian.

If Israel granted you Israeli citizenship, you are an Israeli. Yes.

No, Thomas, the Bible granted us(me and my wife) citizenship.......Let me show you.....>

Rom 11:13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work
Rom 11:14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
Rom 11:15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
Rom 11:16 Now if the hallah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
Rom 11:19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!
Rom 11:22 So take a good look at God's kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God's kindness toward you - provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
Rom 11:23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.

Rom 9:6 But the present condition of Isra'el does not mean that the Word of God has failed. For not everyone from Isra'el is truly part of Isra'el;

 

[thomas t]

No, Thomas, the Bible granted us(me and my wife) citizenship.......Let me show you.....>

Rom 11:13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work
Rom 11:14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
Rom 11:15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
Rom 11:16 Now if the hallah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
Rom 11:19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!
Rom 11:22 So take a good look at God's kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God's kindness toward you - provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
Rom 11:23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.

that's the Olive.
When you say you are Israeli, you have to present some more evidence.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually I call myself a Christian.

If Israel granted you Israeli citizenship, you are an Israeli. Yes.

The moment someone claims: I am Israelite, just for following God's rules (without an ethnic link).... this is identity grabbing, though.
This is how I see it.

The thing is, how do you know if that's the case. Someone may say they are a Jew (because they have a Jewish mother) but take on favors of their, say, white father and do not practice Judaism. So, if the other doesn't know they are a Jew because of how they look and what they don't practice, does that mean they aren't a Jew or the genuine ignorance (lack of knowledge) of the other's background to determine if his or her conclusions are true or opinion.

I see the same thing with the use of gypsy. I used that WAY back on RF or CF one of the two and someone got offended but never asked if I were a gypsy (though that's not the appropriate term to use). I think I was asked to changed it. This was near 9 or 10 years ago.

In the general, I agree that claiming a name that is not culturally yours to claim is rude. Maybe address it to the person you're speaking about in an assertive way?

 

[roberto]

that's the Olive.
When you say you are Israeli, you have to present some more evidence.

Goodness me, do you not believe Paul, the "creator of Christianity" ?

I believe what I gave you as evidence comes right out of the Bible !

I shall not converse further with you on this topic as I only use the Bible, and if you do not believe what the Bible says about it, then sorry I can not help you further than suggesting you go and read Ruth and see how she converted from Moabite to Jew.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Yah... Reminds me of messianic judaism, which does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

People can do what they like, and it doesn't hurt anything, but when I see folks taking on cultural traditions or identities for a people group they weren't brought up in... Ehhh... It does feel like cultural appropriation.

I will say that if nothing else, it would be confusing for folks to identify as "Israelite" if they've never lived there, let alone set foot on israeli soil, or were even aware of the particular social climate that exists there right now.

 

[thomas t]

Goodness me, do you not believe Paul, the "creator of Christianity" ?

I believe what I gave you as evidence comes right out of the Bible !

I shall not converse further with you on this topic as I only use the Bible, and if you do not believe what the Bible says about it, then sorry I can not help you further than suggesting you go and read Ruth and see how she converted from Moabite to Jew.

Ruth can have converted to Judaism a hundred times. This does not necessarily mean that someone who merely follows the rules of God the Creator becomes an Israelite.

I believe the Bible 100%.
You failed to present evidence that by the Olive Bible means in fact Israel.

 

[exchemist]

Lately, I saw in someone's signature that he claims to be an Israelite.
Without being ethnically Israelite.

To me, this comes across as identity grabbing.

Even in the New Testament, Israel is still Israel,
this is at least how I see the issue.

I see it as one big disadvantage for those Bible interpretations who like to do without a literal meaning when it is at least possible to also understand something in a literal way.

All of a sudden they end up claiming to be an "Israelite". They simply took Israel as a metaphor. This is at least how I understand them.

This article seems to cover it: Israelites - Wikipedia

The Israelites were a confederation of Iron Age tribes in the ancient Near East. There are no Israelites today, any more than there are ancient Greeks today.

 

[sun rise]

Why is this a question? Israelite is defined as
noun: Israelite: a member of the ancient Hebrew nation, especially in the period from the Exodus to the Babylonian Captivity ( c. 12th to 6th centuries BC.

Or from several years ago: WHO ARE THE HEBREW ISRAELITES AND WHAT DO THEY BELIEVE? — Jude 3 Project

But to me it's a historical word.

If you want to note, as Humpty Dumpty did, that the word means what the speaker asserts they mean no matter what, sure, people misuse the definition of words all the time.

"Hacker" used to be a golf term. Then it was someone who loved computers. Then it came to mean criminals.

 

[stvdv]

Let me explain:

If I were to apply for citizenship of Portugal or America and is granted citizenship, what do I become?

......a Portugese or an American.

So if I apply for citizenship of Israel, what do I become if granted?

the Bible granted us(me and my wife) citizenship.......Let me show you.....>

I agree with this idea. Very well explained. Thanks. Nice to see this from the Bible POV, makes perfect sense to me.

 

[thomas t]

Why is this a question? Israelite is defined as
noun: Israelite: a member of the ancient Hebrew nation, especially in the period from the Exodus to the Babylonian Captivity ( c. 12th to 6th centuries BC.

Or from several years ago: WHO ARE THE HEBREW ISRAELITES AND WHAT DO THEY BELIEVE? — Jude 3 Project

But to me it's a historical word.

If you want to note, as Humpty Dumpty did, that the word means what the speaker asserts they mean no matter what, sure, people misuse the definition of words all the time.

"Hacker" used to be a golf term. Then it was someone who loved computers. Then it came to mean criminals.

why is that a question, you say?
The poster claiming to be an Israelite, without any ethnic bond that he could refer to... has shown up in this very thread.
Speaking from my experience in two major Christian message boards, there is a small minority of people claiming to be Israel - just for being obedient to God (according to them).
They usually argue that the current state of Israel is not worthy to carry this name and much more.
They sometimes do make a point.
Speaking from own memory, I remember a verse in Pauls letters where it says "we are the circumcision". There must be two circumcisions then.
Also, they often cite the verse in which it says that not every Jew is a true Jew.
However, this doesn't mean that a Christian all of a sudden transforms into being a Jew.
They sometimes go as far as to say that current Israel has no right to the land they live in - this is the point where it gets really aggressive.

 

[74x12]

Lately, I saw in someone's signature that he claims to be an Israelite.
Without being ethnically Israelite.

To me, this comes across as identity grabbing.

Even in the New Testament, Israel is still Israel,
this is at least how I see the issue.

I see it as one big disadvantage for those Bible interpretations who like to do without a literal meaning when it is at least possible to also understand something in a literal way.

All of a sudden they end up claiming to be an "Israelite". They simply took Israel as a metaphor. This is at least how I understand them.

Yes it's both spiritual and physical. I don't go around calling myself an Israelite because it would confuse people. Israelite just means descendants of Israel. That is Jacob of course but it's also Jesus who is the head of eternal Israel of God. So yes technically whoever is born again is an Israelite through Jesus the Israel of God. But to call yourself that is confusing because people think you're claiming to be a Hebrew and as you point out in the New Testament Israel is used for the physical Hebrew nation. So there is no reason to call myself that.

 

[thomas t]

That is Jacob of course but it's also Jesus who is the head of eternal Israel of God. So yes technically whoever is born again is an Israelite through Jesus the Israel of God.

Jesus is the head, that doesn't transform you into being part of the Jewish nation, in my opinion.
If you claim it does, the onus is on you to show it using Bible proof, I think.

 

[74x12]

Jesus is the head, that doesn't transform you into being part of the Jewish nation, in my opinion.
If you claim it does, the onus is on you to show it using Bible proof, I think.

Well it doesn't make you genetically a Hebrew does it? But Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.

• If gentiles are grafted into the tree of Israel then that makes them what? (Romans 11:17)
• Romans 2:29
• Galatians 3:7 if you have the faith of Abraham you're children of Abraham.

 

[exchemist]

Thomas,

It has nothing to do with identity grabbing as you state/put it.

Let me explain:

If I were to apply for citizenship of Portugal or America and is granted citizenship, what do I become?

......a Portugese or an American.

So if I apply for citizenship of Israel, what do I become if granted?

......an Israelite.

If you want me to, I can show you Bionically why you are not supposed to call yourself a Christian:

Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth - called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised -
Eph 2:12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra'el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
Eph 2:13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our shalom - he has made us both one and has broken down the m'chitzah which divided us
Eph 2:15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom,
Eph 2:16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
Eph 2:17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby,
Eph 2:18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family.
Eph 2:20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself.
Eph 2:21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord.
Eph 2:22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!

Hope that helped?

If you are a citizen of Israel you are an Israeli. Not an Israelite.

Israelite is a purely historical term.

 

[sun rise]

They sometimes go as far as to say that current Israel has no right to the land they live in - this is the point where it gets really aggressive.

The Bible plays no part in my answer to the OP question.

But there are some ultra Orthodox Jews who assert that the state of Israel is invalid since the Messiah has not come. It sounds like you are disputing their assertion. It's not a dispute that I have particular interest in - people have their own views about such things and hold to them with extreme tenacity.

 

[thomas t]

But Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.

this does not transform you into an Israelite.

If gentiles are grafted into the tree of Israel then that makes them what? (Romans 11:17)

tree of Israel?
It does not read "tree of Israel" - don't just stick in words.
(in answering your question...) parts of the Olive.
Romans 11:17 is about the Olive.

Romans 2:29

this is about inward and outward... Jews. Jews.
Don't mix this up with Christians.
It says Jews. And Jews were meant.

Galatians 3:7 if you have the faith of Abraham you're children of Abraham.

Abraham had 8 sons. And Israel, origininally Jacob, wasn't even his son. It was his great son.
I conclude, if you are Abraham's child,... this doesn't mean you're also Israel's child.

 

[roberto]

I agree with this idea. Very well explained. Thanks. Nice to see this from the Bible POV, makes perfect sense to me.

Thank you kindly stvdv.

Let us reason together, not that the Christians here on the board love to reason out/in the "old testament"

When the Israelites left Egypt, did they leave alone or were they joined by other peoples?

Exo 12:37 The people of Isra'el traveled from Ra'amses to Sukkot, some six hundred thousand men on foot, not counting children.
Exo 12:38 A mixed crowd also went up with them, as well as livestock in large numbers, both flocks and herds.

According to strongs:> also a mixture, (or mongrel race)..>H6154

So, when Yahweh spoke to the crowd at mount Horeb, He told these of mixed blood to stand aside because He wanted to speak to the Israelites..........

Let me thus ask these very clever Christians here on the topic.........>

What were these of mixed blood named when they all entered the promised land led by Caleb, who was of mixed blood(Edomitish tribe called Kenezites) and Joshua ?

Lev 24:22 You shall have one kind of law, for the foreigner as well as the native-born: for I am the LORD your God.
Exo 12:48 When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

Gal 3:29 If you are Messiah’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.