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Featured Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    For Baha'is the events recorded in the story of Genesis are mostly thought not entirely allegorical. So God through His Prophet warns humanity to turn towards His Laws and Teachings. Humanity in its perplexity and perversity ignores the messge. As predicted the catastrophe comes. Those who held firm to Gods Laws and Teachings (remained within the Covenant symbolisd by the Ark) were saved. Those who turned away were overcome by trials and tribulations. Its important to note the warning happens before the tribulation.

    For Baha'is Christ has already come in te Glory of the Father, the apocalypse has come (began 1914) and to a certain extent continues. Through the Returned Messiah or Christ the new Jerusalem has descended, God's kingdom on earth is being established. For JWs the apocalypse is yet to happen and they are awaiting events to unford based on a very literal interpretation of the book of revelation.

    That wasn't too hard. I've saved you reading pages and pages of this thread. :D
     
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  2. ManSinha

    ManSinha Well-Known Member

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    That is not a signature line :)

    A quote from the compositions of the 10th Master

    And it is just one line taken out from an entire hymn - nonetheless

    If they do not realize the Lord - then they don't - if you are looking for consequences - I do not believe any is specifically mentioned
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Interesting! We believe that date is significant, too!

    Regarding the events of Genesis being allegorical...do you believe Noah was, too?
     
  4. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    We believe Noah was a real person and Prophet as with Adam, but the stories about each character are much more theological than historic. So no worldwide flood or serpent tempting Eve.
     
  5. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    With respect to the thread's theme of 'Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?' , I would say that every religion has truth in it, and has the potential to bring peace to the world.

    However, unfortunately, this potential has been aborted by egoistic interpretation of the truths contained in the religion by conflict prone men. Religion has unfortunately been dominated by men for long, who had disempowered women and their role in religion in the process for egoistic purposes. All Hindu priests, Christian popes and bishops, Jewish Rabbis and Muslim Imam's and Ayatollah's till now have been male.

    Women have natural instincts for peace and deep patience, as they have been designed by nature to be so, for nurturing helpless infants or babies till adulthood. It is unfortunate that while all religions sing the praise of women, they have relegated women to trivial positions in religion.

    I would say that when female priests, popes and bishops, Rabbis , Imam's and Ayatollah's emerge in considerable numbers, then the potential in each religion for peace and harmony would have a realistic chance for materialisation.

    The Prajapita Brahmakumaris is the only spiritual organization in the world led, administered and taught by women, and they have set a positive example to other religions and the world, that women can take on successfully roles of religious leadership, bringing peace and harmony.
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It amazes me when those who profess an entirely different belief system want to tell me what my scriptures mean. [​IMG]

    Jews and Muslims have always been enemies, right from the days of Ishmael mocking his brother (as I showed you from the scriptures.) Christians and Muslims have always been at odds and Christians and Jews do not have much respect for each other.....yet here is Baha'i telling us that all three can be harmoniously joined together in unity along with any other faith that might exist in the world [​IMG] .....do you see that becoming a reality any time soon? Did your prophet somehow make all those hatreds just disappear?

    Can I ask you how your prophet was appointed and who appointed him? How do you know that he was not just another false "Christ" as Jesus predicted? (Matthew 24:4-5)

    My goodness...that is certainly a really good spin on scripture.....but nothing close to the truth.
    Again, this is taking scripture completely out of context and leaving history out of the picture.

    Isaiah 44 is addressed to whom?.....

    “Now listen, O Jacob my servant,
    And you, O Israel, whom I have chosen.

    2 This is what Jehovah says,

    Your Maker and the One who formed you,
    Who has helped you from the womb:

    ‘Do not be afraid, my servant Jacob"

    When speaking of the one who would release Israel from exile in Babylon Isaiah says....

    "I am frustrating the signs of the empty talkers,
    And I am the One who makes diviners act like fools;
    The One confounding the wise men

    And turning their knowledge into foolishness;"

    The Babylonians were boasters who relied on their superior knowledge and diviners to guide their actions.

    God turned their knowledge into foolishness.

    "26 The One making the word of his servant come true

    And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers;
    The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’

    And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt,
    And I will restore her ruins’;
    27 The One saying to the deep waters, ‘Be evaporated,

    And I will dry up all your rivers’;"

    This is exactly what God said would take place. God used Cyrus to conquer Babylon and return the Jews to their homeland to restore what was laid waste....and to re-institute God's worship at his Temple.


    28 The One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,

    And he will completely carry out all my will’;
    The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’

    And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

    Do you know the background of these verses? Do you know why was Israel exiled to Babylon in the first place? It was because of their continuing unfaithfulness that God used Babylon (a foreign power with foreign deities) to punish his own people. For 70 years (the average lifespan of a human) they were in exile from their homeland, which by the time the exile was to conclude, Jerusalem had become a deserted wasteland. Babylon was not known for releasing its captives...ever. So God decided well in advance to use the Medo-Persian King Cyrus to conquer Babylon, just at the right time and free his people to return to their homeland. Not all exiles returned but as prophesied, a "remnant" did. They had to rebuild Jerusalem's walls and the Temple. It was God's will that it be done.

    You may recall that Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about a huge image that Daniel was used to interpret for him.
    Babylon was pictured by the head of Gold, and the Medes and Persians under Cyrus were pictured by the breast and arms of silver. Medo-Persia in turn was conquered by Alexander the great, followed by Rome and then Britannia, who allied herself with America at the end times pictured by the feet of clay. (Daniel ch 2)

    Cyrus was merely the ruler chosen by God in advance to facilitate the release of Israel from Babylonian captivity. True to this prophesy, Cyrus dried up the waters of the Euphrates River that protected Babylon, by rediverting them, and his men marched into the city through unlocked gates whilst the Babylonians and their King, Belshazzar partied. But 'the writing on the wall' told this King that his time was up. Babylon was a seemingly impenetrable city, but Cyrus was guided by God to fulfill the prophesy, 'making the words of his messengers come true'.

    History attests to this fact....."One famous cuneiform inscription found in 1879, the Cyrus Cylinder, records that after taking Babylon in 539 B.C.E., Cyrus applied his policy of returning captives to their homelands. Among those to benefit were the Jews. (Ezra 1:1-4) Many 19th-century scholars had questioned the authenticity of the decree quoted in the Bible. However, cuneiform documents from the Persian period, including the Cyrus Cylinder, provide convincing evidence that the Bible record is accurate."
    Ancient Cuneiform and the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Cyrus' role was fulfilled. There is nothing more said about him. His empire was conquered by Alexander the Great.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That may be your belief but it has nothing to do with the Bible or its prophesies. Christ came into the world in the flesh only once. When he was to come again, it was not going to be in the flesh, but as a mighty spirit with his angelic armies to take those of his anointed ones to heaven, and to bring the rulership of his Kingdom to this earth. How did your prophet do that if he's already come and gone?

    2 Peter 3:3-7.....
    "First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

    5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."


    If the events of Revelation have already happened then when did the events described at Revelation 21:2-4 take place?.....

    "I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

    What has "passed away"? Why is death still with us?....and why is the human race in more pain than ever before? What are Baha'is waiting for?
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is described well. Even the fact that it "was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss". (Revelation 17:8) As "The League of Nations", it "was" but with the outbreak of the Second World War it went into an abyss of inactivity...but after that it ascended out of the abyss under a new name..."The united Nations".....yet, it has always been a toothless tiger. It is a flawed "peacekeeper" with weapons...not a "peacemaker" as Jesus said his disciples would be. True peace can never come about whilst people harbor hatred in their hearts. The only way for the UN to become a force for peace, is to be given powers it has never had up until Bible prophesy is fulfilled. It is the "eighth king" of revelation. (Revelation 17:10-18) but its rulership will last only "one hour" or a short period of time.....then its demise is foretold.

    Do you think God needs humans to bring in his Kingdom when he has Christ and his angelic forces to accomplish what mere mortals cannot? Man has had more than enough time to prove that he can rule himself independently of his Maker.....up to now, he has been a total failure. God's kingdom will "come", ready or not, and crush all corrupt human rulerships out of existence. (Daniel 2:44) That is not what men say...that is what God says.

    I know what I believe and why I believe it. Every verse I have ever quoted back to you was accompanied by context.....and the misapplication of your prophet's words was demonstrated on each occasion.

    The first three centuries of Christianity demonstrated well what Jesus and his apostles foretold. Just like the Jewish faith established with Israel on Mount Sinai was corrupted by the traditions of men, so Christendom likewise followed suit. Christendom is not Christianity....it never was.

    Why are Judaism and Christendom mirror images of one another? Because the same devil took advantage of the ego-driven men who led them. (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8) Where did they lead them? Nowhere that Jesus wanted them to go. Do you honestly believe that humans will bring about peace to this earth by means of their own government? The Bible says it will never happen.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Since when did the Bible scriptures belong to any particular religion? o_O
    Adrian was once a Christian and he knows the Bible as well as any Christian. ;)
    And it is not as if the different Christians agree on what the Bible means... :rolleyes:
    So will the True Meaning of the Bible please stand up... :oops:
     
    #449 Trailblazer, Mar 10, 2019
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, it is true that all humans have a capacity for peace, but they also have a need to be led. Not many are natural born leaders.....and those who lead are then often the victims of their own power over others, and this power we know is corrupting. When corrupt individuals lead, nothing good ever comes of it.

    Disempowering women was made an art-form in many religions. But from the Christian perspective, women always had an important role.
    Going back to the Garden of Eden, we see that each gender had their own specific place in God's arrangement.

    Like a motor vehicle, a family could only have one driver with one set of controls....and a good GPS.
    Males were set as heads of their families...patriarchs...drivers. Women were the co-pilots or navigators, assisting the driver to focus on his driving whilst they add their input from the passenger seat. Both working as a team in all aspects of family life would make the family a cohesive, well functioning machine.


    Women are the nurturers, whilst men are the backbone or support system of any family. If each recognizes their assigned roles and are happy to work within the parameters that God set for them, it all functions very well.


    I disagree here. Biblically speaking, the gender roles in the administration of God's worship are specifically assigned to men. They were to be the teachers in the congregations, whilst the women were to have an active share in teaching their children at home and others in a less formal setting if they wished to study the Bible. Women were not designed to usurp a man's headship but to work side by side with them in a complementary role, rather than in a competing one.




    I had not heard of this movement, but on investigation, it appears to have spiritistic overtones as indicated by Wiki...... "Brahma Kumaris' students study the murli. This is an "oral study, read to the class early each morning in most BK centres on the world. The murlis are derived from mediumship and spirit possession."

    They seem to have adopted some extreme beliefs. I believe that God requires balance, not extremes in anything.

    Since it has nothing to do with Christianity and is involved in what the Bible condemns, it would not be a choice for myself.
    JW's have no gender role issues as all are very content with their assignments. Women actively participate in their worship with their menfolk, as well as in their families. This works because "headship" is not "dictatorship". :)
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Any good Bible student knows that scripture always explains scripture. We do not need a prophet from another belief system coming in to tell us what our scripture means. I find that offensive actually.

    The Hebrew scriptures were written for Jews.....Christ's teachings were written for Christians.
    If other belief systems wish to tamper with those scriptures to support their own prophets, then we will have something to say about that.

    What it means to be Christian is for us to figure out....what it means to be Baha'i is entirely your problem. [​IMG]
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    God is love.......God loved the world so much......trust in Jehovah.....but those only work if you don't go along with a foolish gang to mock a prophet. Because, OMG!, two bears can't catch and kill forty-two people without a miracle because it is contrary to the natural behavior of bears. So, God killed them. And, that is love?
     
  13. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    As said by another, the Biblical scriptures belong to us all. You can claim ownership and some special connection and understanding but it means nothing to me.

    The Jews claim ownership of the Old Testament. Are the Christians going to return it and remove it from their Bible? Such a possibility would be unimaginable. Although the Hebrew Bible came to us through the Jewish people, in truth it is God's gift to all humanity. Same deal with the New Testament.

    That is right. With the Baha'i revelation there has been a release of spiritual energies that are bringing peoples of all religions together in a spirit of peace and reconcilliation. Given you shun interfaith activities you wouldn't know first hand. You'll have to keep listening to the negative commentary of your church leaders telling you how bad the world is and how irreconciliable its peoples are. In the interim why not read about work that has been going since the nineteenth century to foster harmonious relationships between Jews, Christians and Muslims.

    Islamic–Jewish relations - Wikipedia

    The relevant prophecies that are being fulfilled through these efforts:

    Isaiah 11:1-10 and Isaiah 2:2-5

    God appointed Baha'u'llah as He did Moses, Christ and Muhamamd before Him.

    Maid of Heaven - Wikipedia

    Analogous events are Moses and the Buring Bush (Exodus 3:1-22 and Exodus 4:1-17), Christ with the descent of the Holy Spirit (Dove) when Baptised (Matthew 3:16-17) and the angel Gabriel speaking to Muhammad in the Cave of Hira.

    Muhammad's first revelation - Wikipedia

    I'm well acquainted with the verses and history.

    It was actually the Jews God made a mockery, not the Babylonians as His annointed One was a Persian King and not a Jew. It also completely discredits the belief that God can only annoint Jews. The Persian Empire was one of the greatest known through history and one of first renowned for its multiculturalism.
     
  14. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Through Baha'u'llah's revelation a new Spirit has been infused upon the entire creation. That is why there has been an unheralded reshaping of civilisation and its institutions. While your organisation and its prototype the Watchtower have been consistently missing the mark with predictions that haven't happened since the nineteenth century there is the developing of a new world order along with the breakdown of the Old. Of course its all the handiwork of Satan to the Jehovah Witnesses. The many positive social changes in the world from equality between men and women, to racial equality, the widespread establishment of democracy, abolition of slavery and development of international cooperation are undeniable signs of a new and unprecendented era in human history.

    Jesus spoke of the signs of the times (Luke 12:54-56) and how the people lacked any insight as to exactly what those signs meant. The unrelenting negativity of doomday prophets completely misses the enormous changes for better in the world.

    Wasn't it the Pharisees who knew their scriptures but had no insight into the times they were living?

    The new Jerusalem is not a literal city that is going to descend from the sky. It is a symbol for the Holy City meaning God's Holy book. For the Jews the Torah, the Christians the Gospel, the Muslims the Quran and specifically in regards Revelation 21:2-4 the Kitab-i-Aqdas revealed by Baha'u'llah while imprisoned in Akka 1873.

    Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Wikipedia

    It is a book of laws and teachings and more importantly a charter for a future world civilisation. This new civilisation will be characterised by a time of peace. There will be no more wars, famine, eradication of many diseases and we will live in harmony with the planet. Many of the problems that have characterised the Christian dispensation will pass away and be no more.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Few other than the Jehovah Witnesses and a few other Christian fundamentalists believe the United Nations to be the Beast in the bok of revelation.

    The beast in Revelations for the Baha'is represented by an Islamic Empire called Umayyads that emerged in 661 Ad or 666 years after the birth of Christ.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

    Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

    It is through men God has revealed Himself and it will be through men God will establish His Kingdom on earth.

    Christians have been highlighting fundamental errors of the Jehovah Witness approach to scripture for decades. Its not just the Baha'is you are in conflict with, but the rest of Christendom. So yes, you may feel you know the Bible, but as far as I'm concerned the Jehovah Witnesses are just another sect of Christendom.

    Ever since Christ walked the earth there have been Christians claiming to have the true Christian Teachings and that the Other Christians are false and heretical. The Jehovah Witnesses are simply another Christian sect repeating the same mistakes over and over again as far as I can see.

    Both the Christian and Jewish dispensations are over. That doesn't mean that Jews and Christians can't find spiritual sustainance through the Gospels and Torah. They can. It does mean their followers as a whole can no longer bring about the vision of world peace as promised in both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. The Christian Dispensation for Baha'is ended in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The Promised peace is within our grasp but requires God to raise up men of vision, excellent character and determination to make it happen. Hey, you could help us.:)
     
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  15. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    Where is it written in the bible that women ought not to be popes/bishops or religious teachers or try to attain such posts and should be content with submissiveness before men ! Could you give me some references.
     
  16. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    Mediumship and channeling is right, but spirit possession is not. The Prajapita Brahmakumaris claim direct channeling from God, also known as Shivalingam, Jehovah, Allah, Ahura Mazda in other religions.

    They are a monotheistic sect that state God to be an incorporeal point of light.

    One cannot claim channeling from God as spirit possession and the like. The Murlis derived from channeling of God talks of non-violence,non-reactivity, awareness, compassion, love and virtuous conduct, and there is nothing diabolical in them.
    Every religion has so-called 'extreme beliefs', and so do the Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims and Jews.

    I do not perceive any 'extreme beliefs' in the Prajapita Brahmakumaris. They are strictly vegetarian but vegetarianism is now a health fad all around the world, as it is linked to lesser incidence of heart disease, cancer and other diseases as per scientific research. It is also linked to lower levels of global warming .
     
  17. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Now this is really funny. Right now you are using the "few on the road to life" to somehow prove that JWs are the only true religion. However, very often JWs tout their "fantastic" growth rate to "prove" that JWs are the only true religion. This, of course, comes into play when other smaller religions are discussed that do exactly the same type of preaching work that the JWs do.

    BTW, you mentioned in one of your posts that JWs go door-to-door because of their "great love" for mankind. I wonder, however, how many JWs would still demonstrate that supposed "great love" if the WTS didn't tally up the number of hours JWs preach and if a JW didn't have to worry about being labelled as "inactive" if they don't submit that monthly report? Do you honestly believe that the majority would still be out there?

    Considering that "coffee breaks" and starting field service time by doing a close-by return visit and then driving a half hour to get to the assigned territory is pretty much de rigeur for most JWs, I would guess that there wouldn't be much door-to-door preaching being done.

    Speaking of counting time...you count YOUR time here, don't you?





    You may think that the JW religion is so very different from every other sect on earth, but it really isn't. You DO mirror Christendom in many ways, even though you believe you don't.
     
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  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Again, I can vouch for this, though I think I have heard from @Deeje that she doesn't count her time on the forum as preaching, or it was someone else.

    Oh! What a waste of precious time I often believed my field service was and the directive to record and submit a person's time was the first serious disagreement I had with the JW society.
     
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  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Except that you use the same book.
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The principle of headship is outlined in the Bible by the apostle Paul....

    "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

    There is order in all that God does. Even Christ has a "head" who is above him. So if all in the line follow the order of Jehovah, then no one will be out of place, trying to assume or usurp a role for which God himself did not design them.

    Genesis 2:18....
    "God said: “It is not good for the man to continue to be alone. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”
    The role of the woman is as a "helper"...a "compliment" of her mate. A complement is something that make something else complete. As a team, working together their complimentary roles assure them of success in marriage. Respecting the headship arrangement also maintained peace and order in the congregation.

    Paul goes further....
    "Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent." (1 Timothy 2:11-12)
    At first glance this appears to be rather misogynistic, but taking into account how headship is to be exercised, it was really showing respect for God's arrangement. Women could teach their children and other women who wanted extra scriptural instruction, but a woman was not permitted to teach another man, for obvious reasons.

    In male dominated societies of course, things tended to become chauvinistic and the position of women fell to a level that God never intended. Either extreme is not in keeping with why the headship arrangement was so important. The "silence" that women were to maintain was in respectfully holding their tongue during worship. It did not rob them of meaningful contribution to worship.

    When Paul said..."let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak. Rather, let them be in subjection, as the Law also says. 35 If they want to learn something, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the congregation." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)......he was only speaking about disrespectful interruption that may have denigrated the occasion. If there were questions that needed addressing, respectful women asked them at home, not causing unnecessary distraction during Christian worship.

    A woman's role is just as important as a man's....it is just different and complimentary. Only when women compete with men do we see things going wrong.

    In many cultures even today, women have no rights equal to men, but in God's arrangement, women had the freedom to be wonderful assets to their husbands. Read Proverbs 31:10-31 and see the description of a "capable wife"......what a woman! [​IMG]
     
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