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Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Belief, and faith mean nothing without knowledge and verifiable experience that what one has is indeed the truth. That i must believe and have faith in something i know not as being real in all my honesty of searching, is something i take offense too.

I know there are sincerely true believers of what they espouse to be true in every church. For that reason i dont involve, or strive with them about anything. Rather i feel a sense of astonishment, and wonder that people can honestly believe in these things they believe in these churches.

Be it that they are wrongfully judging me because of the fact i dont believe, and am condemned by that none belief,i certainly see them as opposition. But i know in many of the churches its opposition that i will never have to worry about. Sincere believers of these churches i have a sense of compassion for them, but also i am very wary of them as well.

I would say those whom have the truth have love in their hearts, and are full of empathy, mercy, compassion, and care. They that defend what is obviously right and are Not jaded into hatred or needless violence. Obviously we need military, and law enforcement in the world or chaos would ensue. I would say charity in the heart is the mark of someone being true.

Honestly the only place a person will find peace is in their own hearts, and those of peaceful others. That is a choice the self alone makes by what they truly love in their heart of hearts. Some people love destruction and some love peace. Love and the kind of love it is is an act of will. True love comes from within and without.
If i did not believe i had the self power to be a good person, i would be latching onto a religion myself in desparation. Since there is nothing out there that is going to make me be good, and guide my path, i am glad i have the initiative, power, and choice that i do have to be the person i want to be.

Because our eyes see outward, sometimes the last person we ever see is ourselves. I dont see anything in reality knocking on my door to reveal the true me. I gotta go get it myself.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As to the question of the OP.

All the Messengers of God are the givers of the Truth and It is those Messengers that bring about the peace and security of man.

The peace and security of mankind is unattainable, unless and until its unity is firmly established. That unity is not possible while the councils of the Messengers go unheeded.

The Message of peace, is that of Baha'ullah, forerold in all the scriptures of the past.

Regards Tony
 
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Jedster

Well-Known Member
Absolutely! Imagine if all the soldiers put down their weapons and helped people to live rather than seeking more efficient ways to kill? Imagine if race or religion did not cause hatred? All men are created equal, but sadly not all live as equals. Hatreds are passed down from one generation to another.

Imagine if the greedy drug companies used their billions of dollars in profit to provide medicine for the sick and easily digestible protein biscuits fortified with vitamins and minerals as food for the starving people of this world?

Imagine governments spending their money making sure that no one is homeless, or that no child goes without an education or anything else, because of poverty.

Imagine people growing their own food on their own land without all the poisonous chemicals that are presently used on food crops? This poison finds its way into the waterways and into the food fed to animals that we consume. And we wonder why everyone is sick? Sick people are not happy.

Imagine if people all got together to rid the world of plastic and all the other polluting things that humans have invented at the expense of the planet and its myriads of other inhabitants.....?

What is the catalyst for that kind of change...? LOVE! But Jesus foretold that the love of humans, one for another would grow cold. Its so obvious now, compared to times past when people had a real sense of community and cared about their neighbors......not anymore. :(



By man?......you are absolutely correct. But by the Creator....? He has already promised the solution long ago.

I believe that we are very close now to the final judgment of this earth.....there are only "sheep and goats" in this world.....so the separation will not be difficult for Jesus. (Matthew 25:31-33) The difference will be obvious.


Not an unexpected reply from you (friendly smile) and the list you mention has merit.
However, in my own living experience(ie not from newspaper reports), you are exaggerating.
Your comments about governments & companies are mostly true.
I have lived in several places around this planet and I can assure you, not everyone is sick. Many people grow there own food and do much to keep the environment clean(er). There are re lots of good things going on in peoples lives, because of their own individual effort to make so.

Obviously, you have faith in Jesus.
I have faith in the individual being able to bring peace to themselves. There are lots of them around in all communities and they are the true peacemakers. It saddens me that you can't see any of this. I am tempted to say to you 'ye of little faith' when looking at humankind.


ETA the probability of this is close to zero, so you are probably right.
(comment to myself)Yes, that's how it looks. Probably right, but not impossible.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you believe in God, then you can't assume that this life is the one he planned for us? If he did, then he is not much of a God.

If the first humans had simply obeyed that one simple command in the beginning, then none of the suffering we have gone through at our own hands would have ever occurred.

What you have described is not much of a god. I am not responsible for the behavior of the first humans - their creator would be - yet I and everybody I love is held accountable and allegedly punished for that act. How can you worship such a god?

Many seem to equate religious belief with a lack of intellectual capacity....but it is clear that science operates on "belief" and "faith" just as much as religious people do.

You aren't helping your argument any when you continue to see science as being as unfounded as religion.

Here you sit in your air conditioned home in the glow of electric lighting even at night, presumably free of polio and small pox, linked to a vast network of other computers, staring into your high definition plasma screen monitor, typing into your cordless keyboard then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits to small to see.

This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router, where it is converted to light and sent along fiber optics cables, perhaps put on the ocean seafloor by incredible machines, to be processed by a super computer that sends those bits that you typed to a satellite orbiting far above the earth, also put there through great feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar path to my computer monitor over 10,000 miles away from you, just so you could tell me that science has no more evidentiary support than your faith-based religious beliefs, which can accomplish exactly none of this or anything else.

If you hope to have your intellectual prowess taken seriously, you might want to stop repeating what others can clearly see is incorrect. The proof of science's validity and of the validity of its basic principles and methods is its outstanding success making life longer, healthier, safer, easier, and more comfortable, repeatedly improving the human condition. Somehow, you can see none of that, which I attribute to your religious education.

I don't really want to sit here and insult you or your intelligence, but you are on the attack against science, maligning it to make your religious beliefs seem to be on par with it, while complaining about those who see that as an intellectual failure. You're in your own world, Deeje, a bubble of your church's making, from which you demean virtually everything and everybody around you except your church, waiting to die in the hope that a promise made to you of better times to follow will be kept..

Try a little humility..You think have answers - "the truth" - but what you really have are guesses for which there is no evidence.

Failed human rulership is what God's Kingdom will "crush" and replace. Anyone clinging to them will go down with them.

Crush? You mean like when somebody steps on a cockroach? Your god seems even less likeable than before.

Imagine if race or religion did not cause hatred?

Yeah, John Lennon already covered that. He wasn't very flattering about religion.

Imagine governments spending their money making sure that no one is homeless, or that no child goes without an education or anything else, because of poverty.

Imagine churches spending money to make sure that no one is homeless, or that no child goes without an education or anything else, because of poverty. The Jehovah's Witnesses have a visible presence in my community, and are frequently seen on foot visiting homes (they're pretty easy to pick out) or sitting at tables in populated venues full of promotional religious literature.

Do you know where we never see them? Volunteering at orphanages, animal shelters, or domestic violence centers. My wife and I are active in a charity that helps needy children get through school. There are no Jehovah's Witnesses helping. We're also involved with a group that teaches carpentry skills you young people. Again, no Jehovah's Witnesses to be found there. These people are not known to make any contribution at all to the community. They just proselytize, which is self-serving. If you're not interested in their religion, they have nothing to say to you. Nothing at all else seems to matter to them.

So, it's a little disingenuous of you to be attacking government, which in the States, anyway, does much more for poor, infirm, unlucky, and sick people than all of the churches combined. It does more to help give a leg up to students, new small business persons, and other human development efforts than all of the churches combined. There are church hospitals and schools, but they are profitable businesses, not charities, and they impose their values in them.

Americans recently got a taste of how much their government actually does for them when it shut down for only three weeks. If all of the churches closed for three weeks, there would be almost no impact.

You present yourself as somebody with answers that can guide humanity to a new Eden. But what we see instead is unjustified misanthropy, nihilism and pessimism regarding humanity and its institutions, and pie-in-the-sky promises which don't need to be kept, and for which there is no supporting evidence.

Sorry, but if the Jehovah's Witnesses disappeared tomorrow, it might take months before anybody had reason to notice. If you disagree, please explain why.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Wow IANS, I hope you feel better after such an extended vent. :D

I am sorry that you can't see what I see. The big picture fills in so many gaps. You are staring at a few dead pixels so nothing makes sense. I wish I could help you to know what I know.

I am not anti-science....I am just highlighting the downside of some of its branches. I am questioning the unprovable "facts" where guesswork replaces any real evidence. I am asking whether science is "the opium of the masses" of unbelievers? You who think we have drunk the Kool-Ade...have you actually manufactured and drunk your own? :shrug:

Americans recently got a taste of how much their government actually does for them when it shut down for only three weeks. If all of the churches closed for three weeks, there would be almost no impact.

Governments are a necessary evil in this world. Like so many in that nation it seems as if all the focus is always on America. There is a world outside of the USA and its friends. Things are grim in so many nations now....politically, socially, morally and spiritually, we see 'bankruptcy' in all of them, everywhere.

Have you ever known a time when there were so many natural disasters? In my country at present, we are facing skyrocketing food prices because of floods and fires and drought. We are used to eating well here....but because of food shortages and economic constraints, we will most likely have to tighten our belts. This is not surprising to us JW's because we expect these things as we see the world careen towards its end.

JW's are a global organization which encompasses all nationalities, educational backgrounds and levels of economic prosperity dictated by how stable and wealthy our nation's governments are, but regardless of all that, we all belong to one family......we all hold one set of beliefs....and we all support one another. IOW, we take care of our own...which is more than I can say for any government or religious organization that I have ever encountered. If everyone just took care of their own, charities such as the one you support would not even be necessary.

We are no part of the church system you despise, because we despise it too. We help people more directly than simply hand to mouth charities. We are out calling on folks every day. When we see a need, if we are able, we fill it on the spot. We don't make a song and dance about it....but you have no idea what we individually do for people. Jesus never organized charities. Neither do we. We prefer to give people a hand up, not a hand out. Just as the Good Samaritan came upon a fellow human in need and offered help....that is what we do too.

Does the world have some amazing humanitarians in it? Of course it does....but if we were all "Good Samaritans" there would also be no need for charities. The few that actually care, can't cope with the magnitude of the problems. Those who could make a difference with their abundant wealth generally choose to aggrandize themselves. It's a truly wicked and selfish world.....but you seem to want to blame God for all of it. He is simply allowing humans to experience the life they chose....one without him. Are we all enjoying it? What do you think the lesson is? Could there be a purpose to it all? I assure you there is.

You present yourself as somebody with answers that can guide humanity to a new Eden. But what we see instead is unjustified misanthropy, nihilism and pessimism regarding humanity and its institutions, and pie-in-the-sky promises which don't need to be kept, and for which there is no supporting evidence.

What you see is not anything close to what I see. I see hope beyond the despair of so many disadvantaged and suffering people.....those whom you seem not to want to acknowledge for some reason.

Do I recall you saying that you were a retired physician? Can I assume that you have always had enough to eat, and a roof over your head, and money in the bank? Do you mix with people of like status who are also far removed from the poverty and despair of others? Could this have something to do with your rosy view of the world? Things might be rosy in your world, but they are not rosy for the vast majority of earth's inhabitants....we know, because we visit them every day. We see first hand what others do not.

When I observe and imagine the power behind the creation of the universe, and this same power gives me a promise that only he can fulfill....I am going to believe him. What can man offer but more of the same hopelessness? Man has no solutions to the problems that he has created for himself. Yet you trust him? Why? What reasons has he given you to earn that trust? What has man ever promised that he has delivered?

Sorry, but if the Jehovah's Witnesses disappeared tomorrow, it might take months before anybody had reason to notice. If you disagree, please explain why.

When we stop calling....that is when people need to start worrying. :( Again, using Jesus' example of Noah's day....the people thought that he was just some religious nut building a big box in the middle of a cleared field. Since no one believed him, others felt secure in doing the same. History always repeats....do you know why?

Our preaching work is a commission that we fulfill through obedience to our leader Christ Jesus. He will tell us when time is up. Just as God closed the door of the ark, so God will close the door of opportunity on this world too. That is how we see things. You may see things very differently, but you haven't got the big picture by a long shot IMO. You have no understanding of why God has done things this way....

Your post suggests that you might want to.....do you? Are you angry with God for not making things more obvious? The "treasure" is not lying on the surface...it is buried and requires effort to dig for it. This sorts out the genuine ones from the lazy ones. If we make no effort to find the 'treasure', then God will make no effort concerning us. That is fair to my way of thinking. If you don't want anything to do with him, why should he want anything to do with you?
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
Wow IANS, I hope you feel better after such an extended vent. :D

I am sorry that you can't see what I see. The big picture fills in so many gaps. You are staring at a few dead pixels so nothing makes sense. I wish I could help you to know what I know.

I am not anti-science....I am just highlighting the downside of some of its branches. I am questioning the unprovable "facts" where guesswork replaces any real evidence. I am asking whether science is "the opium of the masses" of unbelievers? You who think we have drunk the Kool-Ade...have you actually manufactured and drunk your own? :shrug:



Governments are a necessary evil in this world. Like so many in that nation it seems as if all the focus is always on America. There is a world outside of the USA and its friends. Things are grim in so many nations now....politically, socially, morally and spiritually, we see 'bankruptcy' in all of them, everywhere.

Have you ever known a time when there were so many natural disasters? In my country at present, we are facing skyrocketing food prices because of floods and fires and drought. We are used to eating well here....but because of food shortages and economic constraints, we will most likely have to tighten our belts. This is not surprising to us JW's because we expect these things as we see the world careen towards its end.

Perhaps you need to check a few history books. This period of time is FAR from the worst it's ever been, but JWs absolutely NEED to believe that this time period is the worst in human history. It isn't...and it is not the prelude to the end of this system of things and you are not going to be skipping into Paradise over the corpses of those who rejected JW dogma any time soon.

JW's are a global organization which encompasses all nationalities, educational backgrounds and levels of economic prosperity dictated by how stable and wealthy our nation's governments are, but regardless of all that, we all belong to one family......we all hold one set of beliefs....and we all support one another. IOW, we take care of our own...which is more than I can say for any government or religious organization that I have ever encountered. If everyone just took care of their own, charities such as the one you support would not even be necessary.

Reality is that JWs "support" other JWs who happen to be in the proper JW social cliques. Many JWs have learned to their dismay that they are told by the congregation elders to go to "worldly" charities, perhaps run by one of the religions JWs love to denigrate, in order to receive any help. Don't lie, Deeje.

We are no part of the church system you despise, because we despise it too. We help people more directly than simply hand to mouth charities. We are out calling on folks every day. When we see a need, if we are able, we fill it on the spot. We don't make a song and dance about it....but you have no idea what we individually do for people. Jesus never organized charities. Neither do we. We prefer to give people a hand up, not a hand out. Just as the Good Samaritan came upon a fellow human in need and offered help....that is what we do too.

You distribute Watchtower literature. That is not particularly helpful. IF a person agrees to a JW indoctrination course (free Bible study) they might possibly receive some material help, but that help will quickly disappear once they have been reeled in and become baptized JWs.

Does the world have some amazing humanitarians in it? Of course it does....but if we were all "Good Samaritans" there would also be no need for charities. The few that actually care, can't cope with the magnitude of the problems. Those who could make a difference with their abundant wealth generally choose to aggrandize themselves. It's a truly wicked and selfish world.....but you seem to want to blame God for all of it. He is simply allowing humans to experience the life they chose....one without him. Are we all enjoying it? What do you think the lesson is? Could there be a purpose to it all? I assure you there is.

Why do you ignore the fact that the Watchtower Society, which is a multi-billion-dollar corporation does absolutely NOTHING for anyone other than themselves? Your leaders build gorgeous complexes for their own use and do nothing other than "aggrandize" themselves.




When I observe and imagine the power behind the creation of the universe, and this same power gives me a promise that only he can fulfill....I am going to believe him. What can man offer but more of the same hopelessness? Man has no solutions to the problems that he has created for himself. Yet you trust him? Why? What reasons has he given you to earn that trust? What has man ever promised that he has delivered?

Have you asked this about your leaders? Why do you trust THEM? What reasons have THEY given you to earn your trust? Please think about this, Deeje. It's obvious that you have never done so up to this point.



When we stop calling....that is when people need to start worrying. :( Again, using Jesus' example of Noah's day....the people thought that he was just some religious nut building a big box in the middle of a cleared field. Since no one believed him, others felt secure in doing the same. History always repeats....do you know why?

Oh, my! JWs haven't shown up in my neighborhood for YEARS! For some reason, though, it doesn't worry me at all.

Our preaching work is a commission that we fulfill through obedience to our leader Christ Jesus. He will tell us when time is up. Just as God closed the door of the ark, so God will close the door of opportunity on this world too. That is how we see things. You may see things very differently, but you haven't got the big picture by a long shot IMO. You have no understanding of why God has done things this way....

Just a heads up, Deeje. Your leaders need you to keep pushing that literature so that they can continue to live lives of luxury. You will be trekking door-to-door or pushing a literature cart until you die. Jesus is not running the show, Deeje.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Baha'i Faith is straightforward.

The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

That I guess, is a matter of interpretation. If Bahai's are not Christians and they are not Muslims....then what are they?

The Baha'i Faith is an independant religion. It is neither a sect nor denomination of Christianity or Islam. Although Christianity emerged from Judaism, Christ established an independant religion independant from Judaism. In a similar manner, although the Baha'i faith emerged from Islam, our founder Baha'u'llah established an independant religion.

Whose writings do they accept?

Baha'is follow the Teachings of Baha'u'llah. As we believe Moses revealed the Torah, Christ the Gospel, and Muhammad the Quran, Baha'u'llah also brought a Revelation from God. Ask yourself, as a Christian, are you obliged to follow all 613 laws of the Torah even though you regard them as being laws revealed by God.

The answer is "of course not."

Hebrews 8:13

And do they adhere to all of them or only select some that they can accommodate within their own framework?

Baha'u'llah brought New Teachings that are suited for the modern age. Judaism is 3,500 years old, Christianity 2,000 years and Islam 1,400. Many of the Teachings revelaed in these Faiths are no longer suited to the current age.

This is what I find the most difficult thing to understand about your faith. You try to meld all faiths into one universal religion without adhering to any of them fully.

That is the most common misunderstanding of the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'is believe God progressively Reveals Himself. Judaism is based on the Teachings of Noah and Abraham. Christianity is based on Judaism. Islam is based on Judaism and Christianity. The Baha'i Faith is based on Judaism, Christianity and Islam. However like its predecessors, Baha'u'llah brought a new Revelation.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

I'm not asking you to believe it, simply explaining it to you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The big difference is definitely in how that "peace" will be brought about. Your faith sees man bringing it about through political means, but the Bible says that will never happen. Through his prophet Daniel, God said concerning the rulers of our day....

God reveals Himself through men. He taught that peace must be founded on spiritual yet practical principles.

Baha'u'llah outlined the principles required for peace in the world when He wrote to the Kings and Rulers of the world starting around 1867.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

His Message was ignored of course but many of the principles He put forward were seriously considered for the first time after WWI during a conference in Paris 1917 when the League of Nations was established.

"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever". (Daniel 2:44)

That is true. However, Baha'is don't believe the Kingdom of God will magically descend from the sky. Instead it will be established through developing a model of governance based on spiritual principles that can be examined by anyone who wishes to consider it. The Baha'is again offered such a model when it wrote the leaders of all nations in 1985. The offer stands.

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice

The prerequisites for world peace were clearly outlined.

Failed human rulership is what God's Kingdom will "crush" and replace. Anyone clinging to them will go down with them. That is why Jesus told us to be no part of this world ruled by the devil (whom I know you don't acknowledge) (John 18:36; 1 John 5:19) Without the devil, the Bible's entire narrative falls apart. It is meaningless and nothing makes sense.

If the new world order proposed by Baha'u'llah is indeed God's Kingdom that the prophets of Old have alluded to, it won't be established by 'crushing and replacing' the old world order. It will be established because it works and meets the needs of humanity. It will make sense to those who take the time to investigate it. Humanity will voluntarily choose it.

Baha'is believe Satan is a symbol of the lower nature or dark forces within ourselves that we all need to rise above. In my experience, many of those most preoccupied with a literal devil often have unresolved psychological difficulties.

@Deeje , We'll have to agree to disagree on most of this I suspect. :)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am sorry that you can't see what I see. The big picture fills in so many gaps. You are staring at a few dead pixels so nothing makes sense.

I am glad not to see what you see. The world you see is dark. I don't see that idea serving you in any way, but it certainly costs you.

As for things making sense, I have no issues there. The world makes sense to me, and I think that I have a good sense of how best to engage it to maximize satisfaction while recognizing and avoiding a lot of common pitfalls, so I don't know to what your pixel comment applies.

I wish I could help you to know what I know.

I already know what you believe, at least in the area of how the world is and what is to come, which is what I assume that you mean by the big picture.

As I just indicated, I would not trade places with you. I wish I could help you to know what I know. Perhaps you would learn to see that besides unhappiness and ugliness, the world is also filled with examples of love, goodness. and beauty. I think that you are missing out on that due to a dogma that emphasizes the negative about the human condition.

Are you never happy? I think I recall you saying once that you like to garden. If so, are you happy when gardening? Do you not feel a sense of beauty, wonder, and accomplishment when you turn raw land into an eye-pleasing assortment flowers, bushes, trees, vegetables, and herbs? If you can do that then, why is your writing so dark? Why do you seem to resent it when I tell you that I am happy? You call it selfish indifference to the plight of others.

Is that what was going on last night as I sat on my covered terrace amidst orchids, potted palms, and chimes while rocking in a rattan rocker listening to the patter of rainfall and looking out into my lighted garden, sipping some white wine? Should I have been more focused on trafficking in children or worm infections of the eye that cause blindness? Maybe I would if I "knew" what you "know." That seems to be what you expect of others.

I am not anti-science....I am just highlighting the downside of some of its branches. I am questioning the unprovable "facts" where guesswork replaces any real evidence. I am asking whether science is "the opium of the masses" of unbelievers? You who think we have drunk the Kool-Ade...have you actually manufactured and drunk your own?

There is no downside to any branch of science except perhaps to those with religious beliefs contradicted by some of those branches. Your position on evolution and abiogenesis has been refuted multiple times. You present the science as being unfounded as you have done again here - just guesses and assumptions. It's been explained to you how the ideas you call assumptions were arrived at, and what the evidence in support of them is, something you never address. You just repeat your previously rebutted claims and continue to make the same mistakes that you made last year and the year before, still demanding proof when that is neither necessary, possible, nor the manner by which you come to hold your own beliefs.

And you continue to blame scientists for the harmful application of their work by government and industry. I'd call all of that anti-science.

Furthermore, you have no real interest in science. You never sought an education in it, and appear to be in the same boat as most creationists arguing against science: Your interested is limited to ways to undermine its authority.

Like so many in that nation it seems as if all the focus is always on America. There is a world outside of the USA and its friends.

Yes, I know. I live in it. My wife and I retired and left America ten years ago to move to Mexico. Our community has a large number of people like us from Canada and the States, but about 80% of it is Mexicans who were born and raised here. Although there are walled-off Americanized housing developments, we live in a Mexican neighborhood, where the women often make tamales in the street while watching the children playing ball, or the street is blocked off for 24 hours for a funeral. We hear the clip-clop of mounted horses walking by, roosters every morning, and burros and sheep calling out. We live almost as humbly as our neighbors, walking almost everywhere.

I have also traveled extensively, and seen some pretty poor parts of places like Jamaica, Indonesia, and Madagascar. I think I have a good idea that the world is not all like America.

And yes, I see extreme poverty not far from home. Remarkably, the people don't seem as unhappy as one might think - certainly not as unhappy as you think. The kids may be running around in bare feet on dirt floors, but they and their families are busy playing, doing the laundry, and the like, and seem relatively content with their simple lives.

Things are grim in so many nations now....politically, socially, morally and spiritually, we see 'bankruptcy' in all of them, everywhere.

Yes, I know you do.

I see something else here. I see an emerging nation for whom life continues to improve as foreign businesses invest in the local economy giving young Mexicans an incentive to learn business practices and English, and the opportunity to work indoors wearing a tie.

Not surprisingly, immigrants like me and my wife, who are arriving in greater numbers each year, patronize local Mexican businesses, have Mexican craftsmen making improvements and repairs on our home, and pay taxes to various levels of Mexican government. All of this is bringing the local standard of living up.

It's a pleasure to live among people whose futures seem brighter than that of past generations, which was the kind of optimism I grew up with in mid-20th century America. Parents expected their children to have better lives than themselves, which is what I see here, but is no longer the case in the States, where children are no longer expected to have better lives than their parents. Instead, they look back to the past as the golden years.

Have you ever known a time when there were so many natural disasters?

I don't know the statistics there, but I am convinced that the effects of global warming have already begun to visit us and do harm. I do not see the implications of that the way you do. Man will invite catastrophe, many people and animals will suffer or die, and humanity will be forced to make a corrective change. It is not a sign of the end of the world.

We are used to eating well here....but because of food shortages and economic constraints, we will most likely have to tighten our belts. This is not surprising to us JW's because we expect these things as we see the world careen towards its end.

Sorry to hear that. We non-Jehovah's Witnesses also expect such things.

we take care of our own

We try to take care of others as well.

you have no idea what we individually do for people

I know what I see. I have never heard anybody tell me that they were helped by the Jehovah's Witnesses individually or as a church. I don't see the Jehovah's Witnesses making a contribution to the community.

In the States and here in Mexico, they dress distinctively when going door-to-door or setting up a table of their literature in a public venue. They look like a scene from Little House On The Prairie, if that means anything to you. Is that style of dressing only for evangelizing, or do they dress that way for all purposes? The reason I ask is that I never see these people doing anything else but evangelizing, unless I am seeing them dressed like the rest of us and therefore unable to identify them as Jehovah's Witnesses.

you seem to want to blame God for all of it. He is simply allowing humans to experience the life they chose

I don't believe in God. If I did, yes I would blame the god. I would expect more from a god capable of doing so much more for us, just as I would expect more from a parent who took that indifferent attitude toward a wayward child, who, unlike a god, might or might not have the power to make the situation better

You and I have discussed my observation that God always seems to choose to do what would be expected if there were no god, although you've never commented on that argument, either. This is yet another example of the world behaving as it would were it godless, with no counterexamples.

Do you recall the coin illustration? A flipped coin comes up tails every time it is flipped. Is the coin loaded or not? Sure, an honest coin might come up tails 100 times in a row, but a loaded coin must. As the number of events accumulates in which the universe behaves as a godless world would, the argument for it being godless strengthens. If only once in awhile, things behaved as they would if a god had a hand in it, like producing a holy book that no human being could have written, or finding that believers in this god lived more charmed lives.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see hope beyond the despair of so many disadvantaged and suffering people.....those whom you seem not to want to acknowledge for some reason.

I acknowledge such people frequently, and probably in every one of our exchanges, since you do. It seems that you want me to be unhappy if such people exist. Even if I could become unhappy for you, why would I want to do that? It wouldn't help either of us, nor anybody else.

I, too, see hope, but right here on planet earth, today and tomorrow. If we are to continue making this a better place to live, it will happen as it has always happened in the past - by the hands of intelligent and compassionate human beings. Please try to forgive my optimism, however inappropriate it seems to you. It's a symptom of secular humanism, a worldview that celebrates humanity and the human potential.

Do I recall you saying that you were a retired physician? Can I assume that you have always had enough to eat, and a roof over your head, and money in the bank?

Yes, I retired from the private practice of internal medicine in 2009. I was also board certified in hospice and palliative care, and served as a hospice medical director more than ten years. I have never been financially needy.

Do you mix with people of like status who are also far removed from the poverty and despair of others?

My social circle is mostly other North American expatriates. The commonest occupations represented are business people, teachers, and engineers. I know two other physicians. I don't know how much money any of these people have, but I see how they live, which is pretty much the same way we do. We spend about $30,000 USD a year. We have no mortgage or car payment, no credit card or other debt, and no electric bill (we went solar 7 years ago, which system has paid for itself, so our power is free now)

As I mentioned, my neighbors are ordinary Mexican people, and we see that their lives, though humble like ours, are not lives of despair - at least not visibly. The main reason that we don't mix with them more is the language barrier. Our Spanish is just enough to get by, and their English is worse.

Could this have something to do with your rosy view of the world?

I would be ungrateful not to be happy with my lot in life. I have love, friends, good health, leisure, good weather, and live in a beautiful part of the world a mile up in the mountains of Mexico on a lake, where pelicans and white wading birds congregate.

You might think that it is money that makes me happy. That would be incorrect. I haven't cared about money since my financial situation became secure decades ago.

I attribute my optimism to my understanding of the world and the arc of history. Mankind has been improving the world for millennia now, and there is no reason to expect that to change any time soon.

Things might be rosy in your world, but they are not rosy for the vast majority of earth's inhabitants....we know, because we visit them every day. We see first hand what others do not.

I disagree. Remember, I made plenty of home visits as well as a hospice physician. And I was visiting homes with a dying person in it. Even so, people were largely content if not happy.

this same power gives me a promise that only he can fulfill....I am going to believe him

I'm going to believe my judgment.

Man has no solutions to the problems that he has created for himself. Yet you trust him? Why? What reasons has he given you to earn that trust? What has man ever promised that he has delivered?

Sure we do - have solutions, that is.

I'm not sure what you mean by trusting man. I expect people to continue behaving more or less as they have in the recent past, and that will be fine. I expect man to continue to do both good and ill as before, and for some aspects of life to become worse as others improve, the net change being a gradual improvement in life on earth, with a greater percentage of people living better than in the past, and for that trend to continue for an indefinite period. That's what the evidence suggests that I should expect.

You may see things very differently, but you haven't got the big picture by a long shot IMO.

I think I have a more realistic view of the world and its future than you do, but that isn't terribly relevant.

Are you angry with God for not making things more obvious?

You know that I'm an atheist, and I presume that you know what that word means. Is it inconceivable to you that I don't believe in any god? It must be for you to ask such a question not once, but twice in this exchange alone.

Let me illustrate: Are you angry with the Kraken for the price of food going up in Australia? If the answer is no because you don't believe that the Kraken exists, let me follow that up with another question: Are you angry with the Kraken because he hasn't revealed himself to you?

If you don't want anything to do with him, why should he want anything to do with you?

Actually, assuming for the moment that the Christian god exists, it was the other way around. He didn't want anything to do with me.

I made a sincere, good faith effort for years to comply with what was expected of me by this god, including daily prayer and Bible study, and spending time on the streets like you do evangelizing. I could sincerely say that I loved God, and assumed that He loved me in return. I felt that I was in the presence of the Holy Spirit based on the enthralling experience I had at church, which was my first church (I had been an atheist before that). I would have told you that I was feeling the presence of the Lord.

I had been a soldier in the Army at that time, and was stationed far from home. Eventually, I was discharged and returned to my home state. I must have gone through about a half dozen congregations there, all of them essentially dead. There was no presence of the Holy Spirit in any of them.

Eventually, I realized that I had stumbled into the congregation of a gifted pastor, whose enthusiasm was so infectious that he lit up the congregation and left us feeling like something special had occurred to us, which feeling I was confusing for the presence of God. Eventually, I realized that I had confused a pastor-inspired euphoria for a god. I was either wrong about there being a god, or this god didn't want me. Either way, it was time to move along.

By your reckoning, if this god exists, He doesn't want anything to do with me, so why should I want anything to do with Him?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know what I see. I have never heard anybody tell me that they were helped by the Jehovah's Witnesses individually or as a church. I don't see the Jehovah's Witnesses making a contribution to the community.

I have a few good friends that are JW. I see them as any other person of Faith. All are individuals and all fight their own battle of self.

One JW fellow and His Wife I know are a great example. Always helping those in need, visiting the elderly, helping out when they can.

In the end we must look for good in all things. Interestingly good can come from conflict. It seems it is al part of our choices, we do not always get it right.

Regards Tony
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have a few good friends that are JW. I see them as any other person of Faith. All are individuals and all fight their own battle of self.

One JW fellow and His Wife I know are a great example. Always helping those in need, visiting the elderly, helping out when they can.

In the end we must look for good in all things. Interestingly good can come from conflict. It seems it is al part of our choices, we do not always get it right.

Regards Tony

Thanks for that, Tony. If I ever return to religion, it will be Baha'i thanks to you and Adrian. Your faith seems to generate people that can make the world a better place.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Wow IANS, I hope you feel better after such an extended vent. :D

I am sorry that you can't see what I see. The big picture fills in so many gaps. You are staring at a few dead pixels so nothing makes sense. I wish I could help you to know what I know.

I am not anti-science....I am just highlighting the downside of some of its branches. I am questioning the unprovable "facts" where guesswork replaces any real evidence. I am asking whether science is "the opium of the masses" of unbelievers? You who think we have drunk the Kool-Ade...have you actually manufactured and drunk your own? :shrug:



Governments are a necessary evil in this world. Like so many in that nation it seems as if all the focus is always on America. There is a world outside of the USA and its friends. Things are grim in so many nations now....politically, socially, morally and spiritually, we see 'bankruptcy' in all of them, everywhere.

Have you ever known a time when there were so many natural disasters? In my country at present, we are facing skyrocketing food prices because of floods and fires and drought. We are used to eating well here....but because of food shortages and economic constraints, we will most likely have to tighten our belts. This is not surprising to us JW's because we expect these things as we see the world careen towards its end.

JW's are a global organization which encompasses all nationalities, educational backgrounds and levels of economic prosperity dictated by how stable and wealthy our nation's governments are, but regardless of all that, we all belong to one family......we all hold one set of beliefs....and we all support one another. IOW, we take care of our own...which is more than I can say for any government or religious organization that I have ever encountered. If everyone just took care of their own, charities such as the one you support would not even be necessary.

We are no part of the church system you despise, because we despise it too. We help people more directly than simply hand to mouth charities. We are out calling on folks every day. When we see a need, if we are able, we fill it on the spot. We don't make a song and dance about it....but you have no idea what we individually do for people. Jesus never organized charities. Neither do we. We prefer to give people a hand up, not a hand out. Just as the Good Samaritan came upon a fellow human in need and offered help....that is what we do too.

Does the world have some amazing humanitarians in it? Of course it does....but if we were all "Good Samaritans" there would also be no need for charities. The few that actually care, can't cope with the magnitude of the problems. Those who could make a difference with their abundant wealth generally choose to aggrandize themselves. It's a truly wicked and selfish world.....but you seem to want to blame God for all of it. He is simply allowing humans to experience the life they chose....one without him. Are we all enjoying it? What do you think the lesson is? Could there be a purpose to it all? I assure you there is.



What you see is not anything close to what I see. I see hope beyond the despair of so many disadvantaged and suffering people.....those whom you seem not to want to acknowledge for some reason.

Do I recall you saying that you were a retired physician? Can I assume that you have always had enough to eat, and a roof over your head, and money in the bank? Do you mix with people of like status who are also far removed from the poverty and despair of others? Could this have something to do with your rosy view of the world? Things might be rosy in your world, but they are not rosy for the vast majority of earth's inhabitants....we know, because we visit them every day. We see first hand what others do not.

When I observe and imagine the power behind the creation of the universe, and this same power gives me a promise that only he can fulfill....I am going to believe him. What can man offer but more of the same hopelessness? Man has no solutions to the problems that he has created for himself. Yet you trust him? Why? What reasons has he given you to earn that trust? What has man ever promised that he has delivered?



When we stop calling....that is when people need to start worrying. :( Again, using Jesus' example of Noah's day....the people thought that he was just some religious nut building a big box in the middle of a cleared field. Since no one believed him, others felt secure in doing the same. History always repeats....do you know why?

Our preaching work is a commission that we fulfill through obedience to our leader Christ Jesus. He will tell us when time is up. Just as God closed the door of the ark, so God will close the door of opportunity on this world too. That is how we see things. You may see things very differently, but you haven't got the big picture by a long shot IMO. You have no understanding of why God has done things this way....

Your post suggests that you might want to.....do you? Are you angry with God for not making things more obvious? The "treasure" is not lying on the surface...it is buried and requires effort to dig for it. This sorts out the genuine ones from the lazy ones. If we make no effort to find the 'treasure', then God will make no effort concerning us. That is fair to my way of thinking. If you don't want anything to do with him, why should he want anything to do with you?
t2036.gif
Well done Sis.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I already know what you believe, at least in the area of how the world is and what is to come, which is what I assume that you mean by the big picture.

As I just indicated, I would not trade places with you. I wish I could help you to know what I know. Perhaps you would learn to see that besides unhappiness and ugliness, the world is also filled with examples of love, goodness. and beauty. I think that you are missing out on that due to a dogma that emphasizes the negative about the human condition.

I want to thank you for revealing so much about your worldview and what created it......I feel as if I understand your position now so much better than before.

But IMO, you have no idea what the big picture is and it appears that you have no desire to know......so thanks for the interchange. It explains so much.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje , We'll have to agree to disagree on most of this I suspect. :)

It's a case of wait and see really. The truth is the truth no matter what any of us believe. Some of us will find it....but according to our scripture, the majority will not, sidetracked by a master deceiver who has managed to cater to people's own deep desires and lead them down the wrong path. (1 John 5:19; Matthew 7:13-14) God will not interfere with their exercise of free will.

The 'new world order' offered by man is a trap, baited with promises of 'peace and security', but according to the Revelation, it will herald the introduction of a totalitarian world government that will attempt to control everything that we do. It won't last long according to scripture. Freedom is too precious to give up. Chaos will be unleashed. The greatest tribulation this world has ever seen is coming. (Matthew 24:21)

God's people will not need to fight, because this is not our battle. (Isaiah 26:20)

We are ready for what's coming......are you? :shrug:
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe the greatest tribulation the World has ever seen or will see is the killing of the son of God. That already happened fyi.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It's a case of wait and see really. The truth is the truth no matter what any of us believe. Some of us will find it....but according to our scripture, the majority will not, sidetracked by a master deceiver who has managed to cater to people's own deep desires and lead them down the wrong path. (1 John 5:19; Matthew 7:13-14) God will not interfere with their exercise of free will.

The 'new world order' offered by man is a trap, baited with promises of 'peace and security', but according to the Revelation, it will herald the introduction of a totalitarian world government that will attempt to control everything that we do. It won't last long according to scripture. Freedom is too precious to give up. Chaos will be unleashed. The greatest tribulation this world has ever seen is coming. (Matthew 24:21)

God's people will not need to fight, because this is not our battle. (Isaiah 26:20)

We are ready for what's coming......are you? :shrug:
What you said there reminds me of this: 1 Samuel 8:10-18
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
It's a case of wait and see really. The truth is the truth no matter what any of us believe. Some of us will find it....but according to our scripture, the majority will not, sidetracked by a master deceiver who has managed to cater to people's own deep desires and lead them down the wrong path. (1 John 5:19; Matthew 7:13-14) God will not interfere with their exercise of free will.

The 'new world order' offered by man is a trap, baited with promises of 'peace and security', but according to the Revelation, it will herald the introduction of a totalitarian world government that will attempt to control everything that we do. It won't last long according to scripture. Freedom is too precious to give up. Chaos will be unleashed. The greatest tribulation this world has ever seen is coming. (Matthew 24:21)

God's people will not need to fight, because this is not our battle. (Isaiah 26:20)

We are ready for what's coming......are you? :shrug:

Do you realize, Deeje, that your description of "the new world order" is EXACTLY what JWs believe in and teach? Do you honestly think that, if the JW dream becomes reality there will be anything LESS than a totalitarian world government? JWs refer to it as a theocracy, but all one needs to do is to examine the current JW religion to realize that every aspect of life will be monitored and controlled by the so-called "princes" that will be appointed.

The JW organization already attempts to control everything that JWs do, from how to dress to what to read to what to watch to how to speak to how to spend your time. Even housekeeping comes under scrutiny and "sisters" can be and have been counseled by elders if their housekeeping routines are not up to snuff and don't give a "good impression" to the world.

You are wishing and hoping for the quick institution of the most totalitarian world government that has ever been seen, and yet you think that you will have "freedom." You won't.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
As I just indicated, I would not trade places with you. I wish I could help you to know what I know. Perhaps you would learn to see that besides unhappiness and ugliness, the world is also filled with examples of love, goodness. and beauty. I think that you are missing out on that due to a dogma that emphasizes the negative about the human condition.

Just needed to make a quick comment about this statement. I and the majority of other former JWs have been pretty much gobsmacked to find out that there are many examples of love, goodness, and beauty in the world. Basically, all of the ex-JWs I know left the JW organization for many reasons (most of which do not, despite what JWs believe, involve any desire to commit immorality or become drug addicts) but all of us feared what we would find in "the world."

Those of us who had been brought up as JWs--either born in or brought in as young children--were taught that the only safe place with good, honest people was in the JW organization. The "world" was a dangerous place filled with evil and very little goodness. We knew we couldn't stay in the JW organization, but we were terrified of what we "knew" was out there.

Then we discovered that the JW organization had lied to us. It was all part of the control they seek to exercise over people. We discovered that the majority of people in "the world" were decent and honest...and that was a shock.
 
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