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Featured Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    The Amount of Jews that have stood on the Mount Carmel, visited the information centre and walked the Baha'i Gardens is monumental. On my pilgrimage in December. I was amazed how many now visit the Holy places and how much local wedding photography is undertaken at the gardens of Bahji now.

    Really not much we can say, as anybody can Google the Arc on Carmel, the Shrine of the Bab, Terraces and Mansion of Bahji and wonder how they all ended up in the holy land and have become the 8th wonder of the world, if we read Haifa tourist brochures. :)

    Many seeds planted.

    Regards Tony
     
    #361 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
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  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    That's how I treat people to whom I am indifferent. Why would you call that love?

    Of course, this brings up the matter of what love means from a Christian perspective and from a Jehovah's Witness perspective.

    Yes, they look like Christians - professional Christians, in fact, since they make their living at it.
     
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  3. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    And, according to JWs, anyone who rejects the JWs, regardless of how they view God or his Kingdom, will be destroyed.

    I wonder how many JWs took note of the Watchtower's mentioning that Noah preached for 120 years before the Flood came. I know that some JWs did the calculations and are looking forward to 2034 just as they looked forward to 1975. I guess the WTS has decided not to make a big deal about this, since they did look like idiots when the 1975 fiasco blew up in their faces, but the seed has been planted. They have to keep that carrot on the stick in order to keep their slaves hard at work, so give them something to look forward to.



    Whoa! Let us not forget that Rutherford initially tried to cozy up to Hitler.

    Jehovah's Witnesses leaders supported Hitler and the Nazi regime.



    JWs are just as much a part of religion (be it false or partially true) as any other religion.
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is much to address here Adrian....please bear with me....

    The concept that humans lost their relationship with God due to Adam's disobedience, has nothing to do with the RCC. It is what the Bible teaches. "Sin" is the reason why there was a mediator (Jesus Christ) appointed as a 'bridge' or 'go-between' to span this separation from God.

    1 Timothy 2:5-6....(from Strongs Concordance)
    "For there is one G1520 God, G2316 and one G1520 mediator G3316 also G2532 between God G2316 and men, G444 the man G444 Christ G5547 Jesus, G2424

    who gave G1325 Himself G1438 as a ransom G487 for all, G3956 the testimony G3142 G2398 given at G2398 the proper time. G2540"


    The Greek word for "mediator" is "mesitēs" and it means....
    1. "one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
    2. a medium of communication, arbitrator"
    1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)

    According to your beliefs, there was no separation from God because the Garden of Eden scenario was just an "allegorical story". If it was, then there was no need for Christ to become a mediator, or for him to die his sacrificial death. You just dispensed with the reason for the "ransom" and completely devalued Christ's sacrifice.

    When you misinterpret and misapply scripture (which Baha'i appear to do like no others) then the truth of the Bible's narrative is completely butchered right from its beginnings.

    Every scripture you quote is meaningless the way Baha'i interpret it. You know your Baha'i teachings well, but your Bible knowledge is stunted because you don't research outside of what you believe. You are all so busy trying to accommodate all religions that you end up being true to none.

    Not even remotely close.

    This is again failing to consider all that Christ taught. He acknowledged that God created humans and he also taught his apostles all that they knew. They in turn taught us. The apostle Paul plainly said that "sin" is inherited from Adam and Christ came to undo what Adam had done to his children. (Romans 5:12) Without that baseline teaching, the rest of the Bible makes no sense. If there was no Adam...there was no Christ.

    Picking random scriptures and misapplying them will never get to the truth. Anyone can make the Bible say whatever they like when they take scripture out of context and fail to compare it to the rest of what it says.

    When Jesus said that "the world will behold me no longer" he meant that they would never see him again in the flesh. The next time he was visible would be at the judgment. There was no point in coming in the flesh and dying twice.

    "...in the time of Malachi: the Jewish Diaspora or Dispersion. After the destruction of Samaria (in 740 B.C.E.) and of Jerusalem (in 607 B.C.E.) the Jews scattered from one end of the ancient world to the other. Greek geographer Strabo (a contemporary of Jesus) says of the Jews: “They have penetrated already into every state, so that it is difficult to find a single place in the world in which their tribe has not been received and become dominant.”

    Wherever the Jews went they built their synagogues for worship. Each synagogue had its copies of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jewish hope of the Messiah thereby became known far outside the borders of Israel. (Compare Matthew 2:1, 2.) Logically, following the establishment of Christianity, where would the disciples preach? In the Jewish synagogues! Paul, for instance, in his wide travels, ordinarily went there first when entering a city. Many of these prepared, scattered Jews accepted the message about Jesus.—Acts 13:5, 14, 42-44; 17:1-3, 10; 18:4; 19:8."


    God Takes Action at the Appointed Time — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Who has not heard of Israel?.....they seem to be in the news for all the wrong reasons? So who has not also heard of their troubled existence in their small nation?
    When Jesus said that their "house was abandoned" he was saying that they no longer had God's protection and blessing. They are now just one of the nations....spilling blood like all the rest. (Isaiah 1:15)

    God chose a new nation and bestowed his blessing on them. The apostle Paul called them "the Israel of God" which included Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Galatians 6:16)

    "Symʹe·on (Simon Peter) has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) Its no longer about being any nationality. (Acts 10:34-35)

    The Jews as a physical nation no longer feature in God's purpose...they did in the past, but their tenure ran out due to their flagrant disobedience....something that has plagued mankind since their beginnings. When you boil it all down....obedience is the only thing God has ever asked from us. If the first humans had simply obeyed, we would never have found ourselves in this mess. If Israel had obeyed, they would have seen all of the blessings that God originally had in store for them....but as Jesus said "they didn't want" what he was offering.
     
    #364 Deeje, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do you understand what the "times of the Gentiles" means? Unless you do, you can be sidetracked into false assumptions. We need to go back to Daniel's prophesies concerning "the time of the end".
    In Daniel chapter two we find that the King of Babylon is troubled by a dream, which was given to him by God.
    Daniel is brought in to interpret the dream because the King is so angry that his wise men cannot tell him what it is or what it means, that he is about to do away with all of them, including Daniel and his companions.

    The dream was about a march of world powers who are connected to Israel in some way. Beginning with Babylon, he foretells the succeeding world powers....Medo-Persia....Greece....Rome....and finally Britain and its allies in the time of the end. These Gentile nations held domination over the Jews until the rulership of the last ruling powers...Anglo-America and the times we are living in now.

    Daniel tells the King that....."In the days of those kings [the last rulers of this world] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever."

    This confirms that the "last days" of this system of things only spans the time from the early 20th century, onward when the world's current rulership would not change. Daniel spoke of two Kings engaging in a tug of war for world domination in this period...."the King of the North" and "the King of the South". We have seen this clearly during the period since the First World War. Peace has been very elusive for this whole time. Never has the push for world domination been greater or had such heinous weaponry.

    Again, this is a complete departure from the Bible's overall message.

    Israel featured strongly in God's purpose because of his promise to Abraham. God made a covenant with Abraham that was everlasting, but because Israel were serial covenant breakers and God wasn't, he kept them as his people until the Messiah came. As Jesus predicted, (Matthew 23:37-39) true to form, the nation, rather than listen and repent, under the advice of its leaders, would silence God's last prophet and force God to choose a new nation...one that would keep his new covenant.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since Jesus and the apostles taught that the fleshly nation of Israel was no longer part of God's arrangement, then domination of the Jews was to continue up until the last days, which began in 1914 according to our calculations from Daniel's prophesy. The restoration of literal Israel to their homeland is meaningless if all the rest of the prophesy went unfulfilled. So many of the Jews in Israel are not strict practicers of the Jewish faith....many in fact are secular Jews....more oriented towards politics than religion.

    "This part of the population makes up 41.4% of the Jewish population. Secular Jews are largely supporters of the Israeli Labor Party and a Secular Zionist state. Many secular Israelis identify as Jewish, but the religion is only one aspect of their identity."
    Secularism in Israel - Wikipedia

    Secularism in Israel - Wikipedia

    This is not a return to true worship, but a mere return to their soil. The Promised Land no longer exists. It is blood stained. (Psalm 106:35-43) God remembered his covenant...but by their actions, Israel did not.

    You credit God with more patience and forbearance than he has expressed himself.
    After all that he had done to release Israel from slavery in Egypt, at the first sign of doubt, they immediately fell to idol worship. ...."Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have seen that this is an obstinate people. 10 So now let me be, and I will exterminate them in my burning anger, and let me make a great nation from you instead.”

    If God wanted to "exterminate" his people for their idolatry, imagine what he felt like doing when they fell to Baal worship and started sacrificing their children in the fire to Moloch! He sent his prophets to them again and again but Israel's response was to silence those prophets rather than reform themselves. God had to bring them to their knees in repentance, but it never lasted. The only reason he kept them in existence was to fulfill his promise to Abraham and produce their Messiah. Once his part of the covenant was fulfilled, he abandoned unfaithful Israel and chose a new nation, who would obey him.....why wouldn't he? He simply changed the definition of what it meant to be a "Jew".

    Romans 2:28-29...
    "For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

    Those who have not discerned that truth would be barking up the wrong tree entirely.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Its the Greek "A·gaʹpe" not to be confused with "philea", "storge" or "eros". English is such an inadequate language sometimes.

    A·gaʹpe, carries the meaning of love guided, or governed, by principle. It may or may not include affection and fondness. I can therefore love my enemies without feeling a fondness for them.

    There is only one Christian perspective...the one contained in scripture. Love, like justice can be expressed with or without sentiment. Feelings of love can distort a person's perceptions and affect their actions, so it it important to be able to make a distinction and exercise self control when necessary.

    Yes they do...it is one of the reasons why I left Christendom. Those in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses work for their own keep. Our shepherds do not get paid for tending the flock. Their services are always free.
     
  8. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    That's commendable.

    That doesn't sound too valuable to your enemies or you.

    I don't sense love coming from you - just judgment and condemnation.
     
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  9. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    This does sound like a very good thing. However, the reality is that the shepherds have responsibilities towards their families and need to work to support them. That means that any shepherd who really tries to tend to the flock is attempting to handle at least two full time jobs...and they tend to burn out, both emotionally and physically.

    The shepherds who really don't do much for the "flock" but who revel in their positions of authority as "big fish in a tiny pond" are rampant in the JW organization. Such ones do little to actually tend to the flock and often set themselves up as despots in the congregation.

    This was one of the issues I had with the organization. I saw those elders who valiantly tried to be good shepherds fall by the wayside, exhausted from trying to handle their personal as well as congregational responsibilities, while those who didn't care one whit about the "sheep" continue as elders. I often mused that having a pastor who was paid to actually devote his time to caring for the flock rather than having to give short shrift to both his family and the congregation was probably a better solution than the way the JWs had things set up.

    Yes, the "unpaid volunteer clergy" sounds like a good idea, and it certainly gives the JWs bragging rights, but it doesn't work all that well in actual practice. It really boils down to the fact that the Watchtower Society doesn't want to pay out any money if they don't absolutely have to. They prefer to keep it to enrich the corporation.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You don't even know me. If I tell the truth, its just stating facts as I understand them. The truth is sometimes hard to take when you are on the receiving end of it.

    I am not a very 'flowery' person by nature so I am more interested in facts than in sentimentality or tip-toeing around people in case I hurt their feelings. I am an Aussie and its in our nature to tell it like it is.

    I have found Americans in particular often very easily offended for some reason....:shrug: Are you not used to people telling the truth? Maybe not......:eek:
     
  11. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Interesting. I worked for an Australian company for a number of years, and, therefore, worked with many Aussies as well as people from the UK and Canada. I didn't find them to be as insulting as you appear to be. Perhaps it isn't because you are an "Aussie" but simply because you tend to be rude?
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not think it has anything to do with nationalities. The nicest person I know is an Australian atheist on another forum. But people can be very insulting of others when they think they alone have "The Truth." Goes with the territory. I have seen it innumerable times.
     
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  13. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    That doesn't sound like a rebuttal.

    How much better do I need to know you to tell you that I don't sense love coming from you - just judgment and condemnation?

    I read comments like that one from you from time to time in venues like this one. I know you better than you think. I know you better than I know most people that I encounter in person. You've written several thousand words that I have read, which is enough to have a good feel about a person's intelligence, education, emotional make-up, and character. It's a common misconception to think that you are concealing aspects of yourself because you don't discuss them.

    For example, I can tell you that you are honest even though we have never discussed the issue. I strongly suspect that you are also reliable and hard-working, two more areas we have never discussed.

    How would I know these things? I can't say exactly. It's kind of a gestalt - an intuition that derives from the sum of your writings. Am I incorrect about any of those things?

    The kinds of things I don't know about you aren't relevant to knowing you. I don't know what you look like, how tall you are, how many children you have, your favorite foods, whether you have health issues, whether your parents are still alive, whether you drive or not, your dietary preferences, etc.. But you have revealed quite a bit about how and what you think - your psychological demeanor if you will.

    I have no reason to believe that you have the truth, and neither do you. You have made the decision to believe something by faith because you hope its true, not because you have any way to know that it is.

    What you are calling the truth is not difficult to take. I enjoy our discussions.

    I don't sense much joy in your writing, however, which may be what you meant by, "I am not a very 'flowery' person by nature so I am more interested in facts than in sentimentality or tip-toeing around people." Your reasons for being here probably don't overlap with mine at any point.

    Did you think that you offended me? You didn't, and I've already told you as much.

    Maybe you're projecting. Were you offended that I called you judgmental and condemnatory? Somebody recently told me that the truth is sometimes hard to take when you are on the receiving end of it.

    Incidentally, can you explain why you thought that I didn't know you well enough to call you judgmental, but you think you know Americans well enough to categorize them as easily offended?
     
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    If the story of Adam and Eve along with the rest of Genesis was all literally true then Adam would have been the first man to have lived six thousand years ago. There's no scientific evidence to support such an idea and plenty to refute it. You also have to believe that snakes originated from a sepent that once had the capacity to communicate to humans using spoken language. We would have to believe knowledge could be derived from eating a fruit and there was once a time when man could talk to God directly. There are many things we would need to believe to take the story literally. I don't believe the story is literal at all, along with other stories in Genesis such as the worldwide flood and Noah's ark that saved all the animals. Such beliefs are both illogical and contrary to science.

    If you want to believe its true, that's your choice. Unfortunately you have no evidence or effective arguments. Further many Christians reject a literal approach. Just because Christians have interpreted certain verses one way for centuries, doesn't make it true.
     
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  15. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    If you want to believe it's true, that's your choice. Unfortunately you have no evidence or effective arguments. Further many Baha'i reject a literal approach. Just because Baha'i have interpreted certain verses one way for 2 centuries doesn't make it true.

    You don't see it, do you?
     
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    We're all blind men stumbling along in the dark to some extent @Vinayaka :)

    Biblical literalism....easy. Baha'i literalism...that's another story.
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died physically when He was crucified two thousand years ago. There is no physical body of Jesus going to return and how would we recognise Him anyhow if He did?

    Let me ask you, what was the surname of Paul, Jesus or any biblical character? Of course two thousand years ago, people didn't have a surname like we have today. So Jesus was identified by saying He was the Christ or Messiah, as Paul was identified by saying he was Paul of Tarsus (locality). So when we talk about the Christ we cimply mean the return of another Messiah or Christ, not the same physical body. The clear example of a return of an Old Testament Propeht in the New Testament is John the Baptist being the return of Elijah.
     
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  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Aussies do have a very weird sense of humor that most peoples have a hard time understanding. Most likely because of our convict background and finding some humour in that, all the while robbing people of their land while thinking oneself as a superior race.

    Hard to find a balance in all that.

    Now that has a weird Aussie humor ingredient attached to it as sarcasm is the lowest form of wit/humor, its aim is to belittle or hurt someone, and to laugh at their expense. We are great at doing that of ourselves, we like like to cut down the tall poppy.

    When you are born in and live a culture, it is hard to make adjustments.

    Regards Tony
     
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  19. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I didn't think you'd see it. Shucks darn.
     
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  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure why you keep coming back to 1914 and what the JWs prophecised about this year.

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/1914-significant-year-bible-prophecy/

    1914 - Failed Watchtower prophecy - Falsified History

    Deuteronomy 18:22

    Its good you have done some research and see the Jewish community is very different from two thousand years ago. Yet you continue to judge and condemn them.

    For Baha''s God had revealed Himself to prophets after Christ. The Biblical verses I quoted from were clear enough, those of the Baha'i writings even clearer.

    Our Bahá'í attitude towards the Jewish question and Palestine is not difficult to define: first we have the prophecy of the Master in "Some Answered Questions"; how much that entails we cannot be sure of; all we can say is that God has forgiven the Jews in this Dispensation and that they will return to their homeland. We must not go further than this.

    Second, we must discuss their problem with sympathy, but dispassionately; we are not concerned with, and must--for the protection of the Faith--keep out of, political controversies; all we can say is that the Jews, like every other minority in the world, are entitled to help, consideration, and justice. We must be broad in our approach to all such extremely heated controversies, and while giving our Bahá'í point of view, not take sides.

    Needless to say we profoundly sympathize with the Jews, and deplore with all our hearts the cruel treatment they have received.


    (26 July 1946, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)
     
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