Who forbade to mix Religion and Science?

[gnostic]

Again with the bloody Egyptology.

Egyptology isn’t Natural Science, it belonged to Social Science, like archaeology, and therefore don’t require to be falsifiable, don’t need to follow Scientific Method, and therefore not subjected to Peer Review.

When you hypothetically dig up a site, like a city, and find different layers of settlements, like Jericho, Damascus or Uruk, you would find objects that involved different method of say, pottery for instance. The further you dig, the more backward in time you go, where objects are being preserved. So you may different styles of pottery made in different periods, so the new styles are usually more complex than the older styles. You can also learn when they started using fire to create ceramic objects do when they didn’t.

But if you dig deeper, like in Jericho or Damascus, you will find a period when there were no pottery being made.

You don’t need to be scientist to study pottery, like the style and make of vessels of clay. You will need archaeologist who understand pottery painting and understand how to make pottery, fired or un-fired, and you don’t need science to be expert in this area of archaeology.

You will only need science to date objects, but before the invention of radiometric dating, the layers of settlements used stratigraphy to date these settlements and objects found in those periods.

Are you going to be so bloody ignorant that you cannot comprehend that?

 

[cladking]

You will only need science to date objects, but before the invention of radiometric dating, the layers of settlements used stratigraphy to date these settlements and objects found in those periods.

Are you aware Egyptology rejects radiometric dating? Each Egyptological Peer rejects such dating.

Are you also aware that all dating is tied to Egyptology?

My understanding is that even some tree ring dating is calibrated to Egyptological beliefs, but I'm no expert so I don't have the advantage of knowing everything.

This makes it pretty remarkable no one cares that peers in Egyptology are not privy to the few scientific tests that are actually performed on the pyramids. And you still aren't concerned.

 

[sooda]

Are you aware Egyptology rejects radiometric dating? Each Egyptological Peer rejects such dating.

Are you also aware that all dating is tied to Egyptology?

My understanding is that even some tree ring dating is calibrated to Egyptological beliefs, but I'm no expert so I don't have the advantage of knowing everything.

This makes it pretty remarkable no one cares that peers in Egyptology are not privy to the few scientific tests that are actually performed on the pyramids. And you still aren't concerned.

Radiocarbon dating verifies ancient Egypt's history - BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/10345875
Jun 17, 2010 · Radiocarbon dating verifies ancient Egypt's history. The researchers dated seeds found in pharaohs' tombs, including some from the tomb of the King Tutankhamun. They write in the journal Science that some of the samples are more than 4,500 years old. Radiocarbon dating of ancient Egyptian objects is nothing new.

 

[cladking]

Radiocarbon dating verifies ancient Egypt's history - BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/10345875
Jun 17, 2010 · Radiocarbon dating verifies ancient Egypt's history. The researchers dated seeds found in pharaohs' tombs, including some from the tomb of the King Tutankhamun. They write in the journal Science that some of the samples are more than 4,500 years old. Radiocarbon dating of ancient Egyptian objects is nothing new.

The dating of king Tut's tomb is not in question.

 

[sooda]

The dating of king Tut's tomb is not in question.

So they can use it to test their method.

 

[qaz]

it's impossible by definition, since both of them claim their domain upon objective truths (science legitimately, religion illegitimately).
but i think it's possible to mix science and art. the first one is built on objectivity, but doesn't exclude subjectivity, while art is built on subjectivity, but doesn't exlude objectivity. the result would be something like philosophy, not academic philosophy, but something more like mann and musil did - musil notably said: "Anyone who is incapable of solving an integral equation, anyone who is unable to perform a laboratory experiment, should today be forbidden to discuss all spiritual matters"

 

[ecco]

The idea that science and religion are at war with one another is actually fairly recent. It really only arose in the last third of the nineteenth century, after the publication of Darwin's book on evolution. In the wake of the furor over Darwin's idea that humans were descended from apes, some people on both sides tried to paint the other side as the enemy.

"History of the Conflict Between Science and Religion" (1874). The other, written by Andrew Dickson White - the first president of Cornell University and a great champion of science - was a long, detailed, two volume work with the more inflammatory title "The History of the Warfare Between Science and Theology in Christendom" (1896).

If "The idea that science and religion are at war with one another is actually fairly recent" is correct, why were two books written about it with the word "history" in the title?

I took the time to very briefly look at the first book. https://www.amazon.com/History-Conflict-Between-Religion-Science/dp/1503210022
The author refers back to Macedonia and the origins of Christianity. That seems to give lie to the "fairly recent" phrase in the PBS quote.

 

[ecco]

that you included that raid in your list of things you approved of. Which of course is directly contradictory to your claim that the women and children should have been left alone, as well as your statement that you didn't know much about the raid.

Since my point continues to go over your head, I guess I'll have to put it in even simpler terms for you.
Jeffs arrest: Good
Taking women and children: Bad

 

[ecco]

In fact, the only reason you included it in the list of other events (that you obviously didn't know much about, either) is that the government did it and you approve of the government raiding what you perceive as 'cults,' or the different.

I approve of Government intervention when the safety of children is involved. For example, Governments stepping in when people sexually molest children. Perhaps, with your LDS background, you find nothing wrong with men marrying off their 14-year-old daughters to tribal elders. I do find it wrong. Our Government finds it wrong.

Even more wrong is the fact that the mothers are so indoctrinated, that they supportive of such practices.

 

[dianaiad]

Since my point continues to go over your head, I guess I'll have to put it in even simpler terms for you.
Jeffs arrest: Good
Taking women and children: Bad

That's nice. But Jeff's arrest, conviction and incarceration happened considerably before the raid, and was not done as a part of any raid.... and the raid is what 'took the woman and children,' and THE RAID is what you mentioned as something you approved of.

I'm glad you figured it out, though.

I'm still shaking my head over your approval of Jonestown (which was not the result of any raid, and absolutely the fault of Jim Jones and his fanatical followers; no government attacked his compound in any way) and Waco, which was one of the most screwed up and mishandled operations in the history of such things. At least the FLDS raid didn't result in loss of life, like dead children.

.........and there is absolutely no credit to Texas that THIS was so.

 

[ecco]

Briefer than Cliff's Notes.

Texas didn't like the FLDS compound. Texas was looking for any possible excuse to shut the place down.
Warren Jeffs was in prison, tried, convicted and sentenced.

The Texas authorities received a phone call from
"Sarah,' a woman who claimed to be inside the compound, mistreated and wanting to escape.

The call was fraudulent. the woman calling had a habit of doing this sort of thing, and was actually from Colorado Springs, named Rozita Swinton, who had a long history of making just such phone calls.

the kicker? Texas KNEW it was fraudulent, and used it as an excuse to raid the compound anyway.

It wasn't the first time Rozita Swinton had pulled something like this.
Texas went the whole Waco route; tanks, SWAT teams in full gear, K-9 corps, snipers on the buildings and hills surrounding the compound.

They invaded the compound, loaded all the women and children on busses owned by the local Baptist church, (one of my favorite images from this event)

and hauled them off to detention centers, high school gymnasiums with porta-potties at the back of the playing fields in full view of the public on the other side of the fence. The women and children were separated, and the children put in foster care. Texas claimed that most of the young mothers were actually teenagers and minors themselves, and they would not accept state birth certificates as proof that they weren't.

Breast feeding mothers were separated from their babies.
It took MONTHS for the mothers to get their children back, months, and many hearings, in which the judges told the Texas child services people to LET THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN GO, because it was illegal and unconstitutional to hold them against their wills. Even child services acknowledged that the women and children were not being charged with any violations; they were victims.

The response to that order?

No, we won't let them go because if we do, they will leave and we will no longer be able to look for some evidence of a crime for which we can hold them.

They finally had to let the women go, but the kids remained in foster care, forcing the women, who had no money or resources, to find a way to live in the cities where their children were. It took a very long time to get the families together.

The irony here....and it should be ironic even to the most belligerently biased prejudiced idiot?

Texas was charging the MEN with child abuse and endangerment, but they TOOK the women and children, imprisoned them, and left the men at the compound, free to go anywhere they wanted to go.

There is a somewhat different version here:

Texas takes custody of 400 children after raid on polygamist compound

Apparently that raid didn't change much. Here is an article from 2016

Lawmen raid FLDS compounds, make 11 arrests

The two-count indictment unsealed Tuesday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City charges Seth Jeffs and other FLDS leaders and members with diverting federal food-stamp money from authorized beneficiaries to leaders of the FLDS Church for use by ineligible beneficiaries and for unapproved purposes.

The value of the food stamp benefits, distributed through the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, amounted to millions of dollars annually, and the alleged fraud dated to 2011, according to a news release from the U.S. Attorney’s Office, District of Utah.​

 

[dianaiad]

I approve of Government intervention when the safety of children is involved. For example, Governments stepping in when people sexually molest children. Perhaps, with your LDS background, you find nothing wrong with men marrying off their 14-year-old daughters to tribal elders. I do find it wrong. Our Government finds it wrong.

Even more wrong is the fact that the mothers are so indoctrinated, that they supportive of such practices.

I'm a bit tired of the insults, ecco.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I am not now, and have never been, FLDS. There is about as much in common between the two belief systems as there is between Catholicism and Four Square Evangelists. Less.

I am LDS. We do not practice polygamy. We haven't for considerably over a century and even when we DID, we weren't marrying 10 year olds off against their will.

That doesn't matter, though. I would be JUST as incensed about this if the victims had been members of the Westboro Baptists...and trust me on this one, the points of commonality between us and them are few and very far between.

I am firmly against the government meddling where it has no business meddling. Jeffs was tried and convicted for child abuse....but that wasn't the result of a raid. The raid you approve of happened considerably AFTER that, and NOBODY IN THE COMPOUND WAS MARRYING OFF MINORS AGAINST THEIR WILLS. In fact, there were no 'under aged' married women in that compound.No child abuse. In fact, there was LESS child abuse in the FLDS compound, by a factor of about ten, than there is in the foster care system all those kids were shoved into. Texas tried very hard to claim there were underaged minors forced to marry, and that there was rampant child abuse, but there wasn't, and even the Texas courts finally had to put their feet down about it.

What you are saying, here...on top of insulting me and my belief system...is that it's OK to have the government knowingly take a fraudulent claim and raid a group of people because YOU DON"T LIKE THEIR BELIEFS, and don't approve of their lifestyle, even though it doesn't affect your own?

Uhmn.....I believe that the word best used here has nine letters and begins with an "h".

In sum, you gave a list of three 'raids' that you approved of. One wasn't a raid at all, one was a mishandled, violent and horrific screw up by the government, and the third was a travesty; an overdone circus prompted by a fraudulent phone call that the state knew was fraudulent at the time.

If this sort of standard is something you consider 'good,' I think....I'm glad I'm old.

And I think I"m going to talk to my children about becoming "Preppers."

 

[dianaiad]

There is a somewhat different version here:

Texas takes custody of 400 children after raid on polygamist compound

Apparently that raid didn't change much. Here is an article from 2016

Lawmen raid FLDS compounds, make 11 arrests

The two-count indictment unsealed Tuesday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City charges Seth Jeffs and other FLDS leaders and members with diverting federal food-stamp money from authorized beneficiaries to leaders of the FLDS Church for use by ineligible beneficiaries and for unapproved purposes.

The value of the food stamp benefits, distributed through the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, amounted to millions of dollars annually, and the alleged fraud dated to 2011, according to a news release from the U.S. Attorney’s Office, District of Utah.​

OK....so these guys were committing fraud...food stamp fraud.

Your point is...what?

 

[dianaiad]

There is a somewhat different version here:

Texas takes custody of 400 children after raid on polygamist compound

Apparently that raid didn't change much. Here is an article from 2016

Lawmen raid FLDS compounds, make 11 arrests

The two-count indictment unsealed Tuesday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City charges Seth Jeffs and other FLDS leaders and members with diverting federal food-stamp money from authorized beneficiaries to leaders of the FLDS Church for use by ineligible beneficiaries and for unapproved purposes.

The value of the food stamp benefits, distributed through the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, amounted to millions of dollars annually, and the alleged fraud dated to 2011, according to a news release from the U.S. Attorney’s Office, District of Utah.​

Yes. Note the date on the NYT article.

I am telling you what actually happened, from gathering all the evidence, going through all the court cases, figuring out how did what to whom.

Do try to find something from a little later than the day after the raid, hmmn?

You know, from when the Texas Supreme Court told the Texas Child services to let the women and children go because there was no 'there,' there?

 

[ecco]

Ecco, i'm not the one evading. Really. You are doing your level best to deflect and get the topic away from the point I was attempting to make;

The point you were trying to make was that science should pay more attention to ancient myths in order to gain knowledge of actual events. As an example, you referred the Native American stories supporting a flood for the landscape of the badlands. That claim is nonsensical. The fact that you own example is so wrong gives lie to your entire concept. You have been unable to support your own argument and have tried for days to evade.

But there are ALSO scientists (and I contend that science in general tends to do this) who refuse to look at any data contained within a religious context in order to learn about physical processes, because they are afraid that if ANYTHING a theist says might turn out to be factually true (like, oh, pig meat might be bad for you or something, or that there might actually have been a Sodom that was catastrophically destroyed, or that any geological formation could possibly have been caused by an immense flood of any sort) that they will have to acknowledge the all encompassing truth of all of that theistic narrative.

More of the same nonsense. You make comments based on your own silly ideas. When asked to show that there is any truth to your assertions, you are unable to provide any.

If some ancient American saw the scab lands, and came to the conclusion that such formations must have been formed by a giant flood (probably because those formations in smaller forms DO result from flooding) then scientist will put that idea in the 'proof that it wasn't a flood' list.

You just love to continue to spout the same nonsense over and over. Science has no problem accepting that there were floods throughout history. Science doesn't reject the notion of a worldwide flood because it is mentioned in religious tales, science rejects the notion of a worldwide flood because there is no geological evidence to support it.

The idea that the scab lands was formed by a series of immense and catastrophic floods caused by the formation and breaking of ice dams during the ice age has come to be acceptable IN SPITE of creation narratives...and that is a waste of time.

What was a waste of time? Science rejected massive flooding as the cause of the scablands because no one could explain a source of the water.

I suppose what you want is:
Bretz: The scablands were formed by a massive flood.
Other scientists: Where did the water come from?
Bretz: In the Hopi myths there is a passage in the Entrance into the Fourth World that says that Tawa destroyed the Third World in a great flood.
Other scientists: Well, thank you Mr. Bretz. That solves that problem.

Those narratives do not prove that the scab-lands were so formed, y'know. THAT has to be done with empirical geological evidence. However, it's not heresy, really, to take those narratives and figure that they are worth a look, even if they don't turn out to have anything to them.

And after taking those narratives and giving them a look, then what? Weren't you the one who said ... "and that is a waste of time"? Science doesn't continually need to look at the same myths over and over.

Plate tectonics? Maybe caused by all the flood water receding into the cracks. Let's investigate.

Did Mount Everest exist 6000 years ago? Maybe not. There is the possibility that, back then, the tallest hill was less than 20 cubits. Let's investigate.

I have seen that science, in many areas, CONSIDER it to be heresy.
And 'heresy' is the correct word.

Where have you seen it in science? The one example you gave was debunked on multiple levels.

So, I have to ask again, can you provide any evidence to support your spurious assertions?

 

[ecco]

I'm still shaking my head over your approval of Jonestown

What, exactly, did I approve of regarding Jonestown?

 

[ecco]

Since my point continues to go over your head, I guess I'll have to put it in even simpler terms for you.
Jeffs arrest: Good
Taking women and children: Bad

I'm glad you figured it out, though.

Silly. I had to put it into the language of a four-year-old before you could comprehend what I had been saying all along.

 

[dianaiad]

There is a somewhat different version here:

Texas takes custody of 400 children after raid on polygamist compound

Apparently that raid didn't change much. Here is an article from 2016

Lawmen raid FLDS compounds, make 11 arrests

The two-count indictment unsealed Tuesday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City charges Seth Jeffs and other FLDS leaders and members with diverting federal food-stamp money from authorized beneficiaries to leaders of the FLDS Church for use by ineligible beneficiaries and for unapproved purposes.

The value of the food stamp benefits, distributed through the federal Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, amounted to millions of dollars annually, and the alleged fraud dated to 2011, according to a news release from the U.S. Attorney’s Office, District of Utah.​

Ecco, even you should know the difference between a full on SWAT team raid based upon a fraudulent phone call claiming to be from a woman held against her will....

And an arrest for food stamp fraud.

Great googly moogly.

 

[dianaiad]

What, exactly, did I approve of regarding Jonestown?

You included it in the list of raids you approved of.

 

[dianaiad]

Silly. I had to put it into the language of a four-year-old before you could comprehend what I had been saying all along.

Y'know, I haven't been personally insulting to you.

I haven't made fun of your belief system.
Or impugned your intelligence.
Or called you names.

You, however, can't seem to address me without doing that.

See ya