1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Who forbade to mix Religion and Science?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by questfortruth, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,608
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yep.

    "Most likely the ancient Hebrew borrowed the concept and adapted them from the Babylonian creation myth."

    Storytelling is an ancient human pastime.... as much for teaching morality as entertainment.

    Aesop's Fables existed 1500 before Christ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8,682
    Ratings:
    +3,851
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Divine science is an oxymoron. Same thing with Christian science, Muslim science, Apollo science or whatever divinity science.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,608
    Religion:
    Christian
    LOLOL..:D
     
  4. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,569
    Ratings:
    +3,707
    Religion:
    Pi π
    I couldn’t decide if I should give you the Funny frubal or the Winner frubal for your post...

    So I flipped a coin, and you are a “Winner”.
     
  5. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8,682
    Ratings:
    +3,851
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Thanks :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  6. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,569
    Ratings:
    +3,707
    Religion:
    Pi π
    Excuse me, but you are forgetting that there are long history of people mixing religions and politics together and going to wars, Christians vs Muslims, Muslims vs Hindus, Christians vs Christians, Muslims vs Muslims, and so on.

    Religions and spirituality being materialistic, feeding of each other, and making war.

    And if you were versed in the Bible, sometimes God ordered to make wars, eg the Israelite invasion of Canaan under Joshua’s leadership, the prophet Samuel speaking for god, commanding King Saul for genocide of the Amalekites, including every woman and child.

    Then you have Muhammad leading a party of Muslims to raid and rob trader caravans, and then later starting wars, leading an increasingly bigger army.

    Is that God being materialist?
     
    #186 gnostic, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    6,968
    Ratings:
    +2,844
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    That is paramount to rejecting ones very existance and I see the future will see such views as moronic.

    You are free to offer those views which are not based in any science.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    6,968
    Ratings:
    +2,844
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    God always guides us to become what we really are and that is spiritual beings.

    It us up to you to sort out what was from God and what was from our own material based self. All of us get to face the day when we answer for what we have done in this life, no one escapes that day when they are here no more.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    6,751
    Ratings:
    +3,335
    Religion:
    atheist
    What makes you think I've changed my mind?


    ETA
    If you read what I actually said, I said I agreed that Jeffs should have been arrested. I also said the women and children should have been left alone. So, what's your problem?
     
    #189 ecco, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  10. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    6,751
    Ratings:
    +3,335
    Religion:
    atheist
    OK. Yes, Jeffs should have been arrested. I thought you were referring to the earlier raids on Mormons
     
  11. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    6,751
    Ratings:
    +3,335
    Religion:
    atheist
    I agree, the execution was very screwed up. That doesn't alter the fact that Koresh needed to be removed and jailed. There were probably other high ranking members that also should have been jailed.



    That is correct. The deaths were not the result of a Government raid. Jones panicked when his people shot two members of Congress, one fatally.

    How brilliantly insightful of you to find all the things that went wrong - in hindsight - from the sidelines. Decisions like this are not like figuring out which door to knock on.


    I believe you were complaining about Government interference in the affairs of FLDS


    Gee, for someone that didn't comment you sure wrote a lot of words.


    I don't recall what you wrote here on the forum about the Jeffs raid (if that is what you are referring to) so give us the Cliffs Notes.


    You seem very confused about how much you do and don't know.
    Waco was a disaster.
    I didn't comment on Waco or Jonestown
    I know more ... than you do.​
     
  12. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    6,751
    Ratings:
    +3,335
    Religion:
    atheist
    Stop ducking and dodging and trying to evade. You said there were Native American myths explaining the Scablands.

    We are still waiting for you to present any supporting evidence.


    As to your link, I know there are stories from very many locations and cultures regarding floods. That has nothing to do with your Scablands assertion.
     
  13. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    6,751
    Ratings:
    +3,335
    Religion:
    atheist
    Agreed
     
  14. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Ratings:
    +164
    Religion:
    Christian
    Of course not. However, the question can be intended to rebuff your knowledge.

    This might help you. :)

    PBS:Separation of Science and Religion
    The idea that science and religion are at war with one another is actually fairly recent. It really only arose in the last third of the nineteenth century, after the publication of Darwin's book on evolution. In the wake of the furor over Darwin's idea that humans were descended from apes, some people on both sides tried to paint the other side as the enemy.

    A key factor here was the publication of two best-selling books, which specifically portrayed religion as the enemy of science. One book, by John Draper, a medical school professor in New York city, was called "History of the Conflict Between Science and Religion" (1874). The other, written by Andrew Dickson White - the first president of Cornell University and a great champion of science - was a long, detailed, two volume work with the more inflammatory title "The History of the Warfare Between Science and Theology in Christendom" (1896). According to Draper, the Roman Catholic Church in particular was the enemy of science, "ferociously suppressing by the sword and the stake every attempt at progress." White, whose book was extremely influential, saw the conflict between science and religion as nothing less than "a war waged longer, with battles fiercer, with sieges more persistent, with strategy more shrewd than any of the comparatively transient warfare of Caesar or Napoleon."

    Although at the time there were many people - both scientists and religious believers - who did not see a conflict between the two worlds, the warfare view became deeply entrenched in many people's minds, and it has continued to influence thinking throughout the twentieth century. This is particularly so in America, where the even today conflicts between science and religion tend to be much more bitter and divisive than in other Western nations.
     
  15. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    Ratings:
    +797
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    that you included that raid in your list of things you approved of. Which of course is directly contradictory to your claim that the women and children should have been left alone, as well as your statement that you didn't know much about the raid.

    In fact, the only reason you included it in the list of other events (that you obviously didn't know much about, either) is that the government did it and you approve of the government raiding what you perceive as 'cults,' or the different.
     
  16. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    Ratings:
    +797
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Briefer than Cliff's Notes.

    Texas didn't like the FLDS compound. Texas was looking for any possible excuse to shut the place down.
    Warren Jeffs was in prison, tried, convicted and sentenced.

    The Texas authorities received a phone call from
    "Sarah,' a woman who claimed to be inside the compound, mistreated and wanting to escape.

    The call was fraudulent. the woman calling had a habit of doing this sort of thing, and was actually from Colorado Springs, named Rozita Swinton, who had a long history of making just such phone calls.

    [​IMG]
    the kicker? Texas KNEW it was fraudulent, and used it as an excuse to raid the compound anyway.

    It wasn't the first time Rozita Swinton had pulled something like this.
    Texas went the whole Waco route; tanks, SWAT teams in full gear, K-9 corps, snipers on the buildings and hills surrounding the compound. [​IMG]

    They invaded the compound, loaded all the women and children on busses owned by the local Baptist church, (one of my favorite images from this event)

    [​IMG] and hauled them off to detention centers, high school gymnasiums with porta-potties at the back of the playing fields in full view of the public on the other side of the fence. The women and children were separated, and the children put in foster care. Texas claimed that most of the young mothers were actually teenagers and minors themselves, and they would not accept state birth certificates as proof that they weren't.

    [​IMG]

    Breast feeding mothers were separated from their babies.
    It took MONTHS for the mothers to get their children back, months, and many hearings, in which the judges told the Texas child services people to LET THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN GO, because it was illegal and unconstitutional to hold them against their wills. Even child services acknowledged that the women and children were not being charged with any violations; they were victims.

    The response to that order?

    No, we won't let them go because if we do, they will leave and we will no longer be able to look for some evidence of a crime for which we can hold them.

    They finally had to let the women go, but the kids remained in foster care, forcing the women, who had no money or resources, to find a way to live in the cities where their children were. It took a very long time to get the families together.

    The irony here....and it should be ironic even to the most belligerently biased prejudiced idiot?

    Texas was charging the MEN with child abuse and endangerment, but they TOOK the women and children, imprisoned them, and left the men at the compound, free to go anywhere they wanted to go.
     
  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    Ratings:
    +797
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Ecco, i'm not the one evading. Really. You are doing your level best to deflect and get the topic away from the point I was attempting to make;

    That yes, there are theists who believe that their scriptures are science texts and nobody should use anything that even SEEMS to contradict their intepretation of those scriptures as evidence for any physical thing.

    But there are ALSO scientists (and I contend that science in general tends to do this) who refuse to look at any data contained within a religious context in order to learn about physical processes, because they are afraid that if ANYTHING a theist says might turn out to be factually true (like, oh, pig meat might be bad for you or something, or that there might actually have been a Sodom that was catastrophically destroyed, or that any geological formation could possibly have been caused by an immense flood of any sort) that they will have to acknowledge the all encompassing truth of all of that theistic narrative.

    It's bias on both sides.

    If some ancient American saw the scab lands, and came to the conclusion that such formations must have been formed by a giant flood (probably because those formations in smaller forms DO result from flooding) then scientist will put that idea in the 'proof that it wasn't a flood' list.

    The idea that the scab lands was formed by a series of immense and catastrophic floods caused by the formation and breaking of ice dams during the ice age has come to be acceptable IN SPITE of creation narratives...and that is a waste of time.

    Those narratives do not prove that the scab-lands were so formed, y'know. THAT has to be done with empirical geological evidence. However, it's not heresy, really, to take those narratives and figure that they are worth a look, even if they don't turn out to have anything to them.

    I have seen that science, in many areas, CONSIDER it to be heresy.

    And 'heresy' is the correct word.
     
  18. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    646
    Ratings:
    +367
    Religion:
    agnostic
    I call B.S. Show even ONE example where scientists rejected conclusive evidence of any of that.
     
  19. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,569
    Ratings:
    +3,707
    Religion:
    Pi π
    I don’t think scientists are involved investigating myths.

    Most of the times, it is the historians that shifting through the sources, to determine in which are history and which are myths, legends or folklore. And historians are not scientists.

    Some historians may be qualified archaeologists, or else they may seek the assistance and expertise of archaeologists, to investigate sites, to examine objects or bodies found at those sites.

    But what you need to know is that archaeologists themselves are not necessarily “scientists” themselves; some of them may be qualified in some areas of science, but science isn’t necessary requirement for anyone being an archaeologist.

    Archaeologists can employ scientists to aid them for specific tasks, like dating rocks or objects. There are some archaeologists who can identify what pottery go with which periods of history or prehistory, and it doesn’t take a degree in science to make such identification; more than likely these people studied arts and crafts, not science.

    Anyway, archaeologists, like historians, may have to shift through their findings, to find out if the narratives are history or myths.

    You are making gross generalizations about science involvement here. Very little science are involved in discrediting myths.

    Most of the discrediting myths come from historians and archaeologists.
     
  20. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,552
    Ratings:
    +797
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Those were examples.

    However, here is an example of exactly that.

    Fred Hoyle. Remember Fred Hoyle, the very famous and respected astronomer?

    He who coined the name "Big Bang" to refer to the theory that the universe began from the explosion of a 'singularity?' You know the theory...the one that is accepted pretty much by every body as the most probable theory of the beginning of the universe?

    He gave it that nickname in mockery, and one of the reasons he did so is because that theory MIGHT support the idea of a Creator, You know, 'ex nihilo' and all that? "Speaking the universe into being?"

    Hoyle remained an advocate of the solid state universe until his death.

    He would not acknowledge the idea of the Big Bang in part BECAUSE theists MIGHT point to it as confirmation that God created the universe.

    This was a concept that was actually discussed among other scientists as a valid problem/objection.

    But scientists, obviously, don't reject 'conclusive' evidence (and boy, is that moving the goalposts...I never mentioned anything about 'conclusive' evidence). They don't like looking at ANY evidence which might seem to come from theistic sources. They don't like looking at evidence THEY have observed which might SEEM to give credence to a theistic view. Even if ultimately it does not....and it doesn't.

    BTW, religion cannot provide conclusive evidence for anything that science might be interested in. That's not what it's for.

    However, PEOPLE who happen to be theistic can provide stuff worth looking at, even if they have folded their observations into theistic contexts.
     
Loading...