Who epitomizes the "blind leading the blind"?

[Shaul]

The "Christian" bible also contains the Law and the prophets. Does that mean you have to reject the law and the prophets too? Apparently the "LORD" has problems with the "sons of Israel" as well. It seems he found no faithfulness or kindness among them, nor knowledge of God in the Land (Hosea 4:1). For this reason they have been under judgment, both Ephraim and Judah (Hosea 5), and will remain so until they acknowledge their guilt. Ephraim and Judah will not be revived until after "two days" (Hosea 6:2), which would be 2000 years. Per Zechariah 12, Judah has now been coming into the land of Jacob, but they have not acknowledged the prophet to come of Dt 18, and wept for their act of piercing "Me". (Zechariah 12:10). The "new covenant"/new testament is a sham of Paul and his apparent associates, but Paul's church is the woman bought with the equivalent of 30 shekels of silver to help the sons of Israel seek the LORD in the "last days". (Hosea 3)

Why do you keep going on about Paul of Tarsus to me? I’ve already told you I don’t put credence into his work.

Now about the “Old Testament. Actually there are key differences between the Jewish Scriptures (the TaNaKh) and the Christian “Old Testament”. But you probably don’t know that nor what those differences even are. When non-Jews try to tell Jews what their own Scriptures “really” mean is extremely arrogant and insulting. The Jews don’t need others to tell us what our own Scriptures mean. We’ve been studying and following them since long before Jesus of Nazareth was born and the Christian “New Testament” was written. It is quite clear from what you have written above that you don’t understand the TaNaKh.

 

[2ndpillar]

The Christian book of Hebrews makes it pretty clear that the Law is passing away, that it has been replaced by the New Covenant. So, yeah, if you are a Christian, I don't see how you can accept the Torah. As for the prophets, Christians interpret them idiosyncratically. They see messianic prophecies on practically every page. That's not what Jews see.

The book of Hebrews was written by some unknown author. The Christian church has based their whole religion on unknown authors, and the false prophet Paul and his false gospel of grace. Throw in the "worthless shepherd" Peter (Ze 11:16-17), and you have a sand foundation, ready to "fall" (Mt 7:27).

 

[2ndpillar]

Why do you keep going on about Paul of Tarsus to me? I’ve already told you I don’t put credence into his work.

Now about the “Old Testament. Actually there are key differences between the Jewish Scriptures (the TaNaKh) and the Christian “Old Testament”. But you probably don’t know that nor what those differences even are. When non-Jews try to tell Jews what their own Scriptures “really” mean is extremely arrogant and insulting. The Jews don’t need others to tell us what our own Scriptures mean. We’ve been studying and following them since long before Jesus of Nazareth was born and the Christian “New Testament” was written. It is quite clear from what you have written above that you don’t understand the TaNaKh.

The Jewish understanding of the law and the prophets seems to be based on their traditions, written in their conflicting and various Talmuds, written by their leaders and judges, who are to be replaced apparently for cause (Ez 34).

 

[1213]

Paul states the "food" is "not anything", nor the "idol" "anything", such as there are no gods to sacrifice to, and therefore eating the food is perfectly fine for guys like him with perfect understanding and who are not weak in faith. His only restriction is to not eat in front of those who are weak in faith.

I understand it differently, but, if something is not sacrificed for idols, it is ok? If Paul is telling that the food was not really sacrificed for idols, then the question is not about is it right to eat food that is sacrificed for idols, but about is the food really sacrificed for idols.

 

[2ndpillar]

I understand it differently, but, if something is not sacrificed for idols, it is ok? If Paul is telling that the food was not really sacrificed for idols, then the question is not about is it right to eat food that is sacrificed for idols, but about is the food really sacrificed for idols/gods.

Paul's point is not that there are not things sacrificed to idols, but that there are no idols/gods. But of course there are gods, such as the "prince"/god of Persia (Daniel 10:13) who was to fight "MIchael, one of the chief princes". The gods/idols are the fallen angels, whose leader is the dragon/devil. Basically, sacrificing to idols is devil worshipping.

 

[Shaul]

The Jewish understanding of the law and the prophets seems to be based on their traditions, written in their conflicting and various Talmuds, written by their leaders and judges, who are to be replaced apparently for cause (Ez 34).

Nonsense. The Jewish understanding of the TaNaKh is based on an unfiltered reading of the text. These Scriptures were written in Hebrew, the native tongue of Jews. On the other hand, your interpretation is certainly based on second hand traditions. For example your confused misreading of Yezekiel. Anyone with basic knowledge of Hebrew can see your misinterpret is wrong. A misinterpretation which has been aped repeatedly down through the ages by Jew haters. A misinterpretation swallowed by gullible followers of people who mostly can’t even read the text first hand. Another example of non-followers of the Law trying to usurp the gift of Torah to the Jews. To say that the “Talmuds” [sic] are conflicting belies a woeful ignorance and lack of understanding of the Talmud. It is clear you don’t really know what is in the Talmud and are rehashing lies and slanders about it.

 

[2ndpillar]

Nonsense. The Jewish understanding of the TaNaKh is based on an unfiltered reading of the text. These Scriptures were written in Hebrew, the native tongue of Jews. On the other hand, your interpretation is certainly based on second hand traditions. For example your confused misreading of Yezekiel. Anyone with basic knowledge of Hebrew can see your misinterpret is wrong. A misinterpretation which has been aped repeatedly down through the ages by Jew haters. A misinterpretation swallowed by gullible followers of people who mostly can’t even read the text first hand. Another example of non-followers of the Law trying to usurp the gift of Torah to the Jews. To say that the “Talmuds” [sic] are conflicting belies a woeful ignorance and lack of understanding of the Talmud. It is clear you don’t really know what is in the Talmud and are rehashing lies and slanders about it.

There apparently are two different Talmuds that I am aware of, the Jerusalem Talmud, and the Babylonian Talmud. As for the Jewish version of Ezekiel, Ezekiel 34 - CJB Bible - Bible Study Tools , it reads:

2 "Human being, prophesy against the shepherds of Isra'el. Prophesy! Tell them, the shepherds, that Adonai ELOHIM says this: 'Woe to the shepherds of Isra'el who feed themselves! Shouldn't the shepherds feed the sheep?.... I am against the shepherds.... make them cease from feeding sheep (10).

As for unity of thought among the Jews, apparently in Israel there are several branches such as: Haredi Judaism, Religious Zionism, Masortim (traditional) and Hiloni (secular) Jews. The U.S. has somewhat different divisions. 2000 years ago there were Pharisees, who apparently believed in resurrection, and the Sadducees who did not. It would seem a wide gap in the understanding of the law and the prophets. As for Hebrew being the native language of the Jews, well English, Russian, and Modern Hebrew would probably be the most spoken languages by the Jews. In the 1800s, it would have probably been Yiddish. The one's who knew Hebrew best would most likely be the Jewish leaders/judges, who are under condemnation in Ezekiel 34. As for "understanding" what is in the law and the prophets, well Daniel 12:10 states that only the discerning will understand at the "end time". Books such as Hosea 5 & 6 would indicate that Judah/Jews will remain under judgment until after the 2nd day. History, such as the 2nd world war, seems to indicate that that judgment was in affect after your Talmuds were originally written and edited.

 

[1213]

Paul's point is not that there are not things sacrificed to idols, but that there are no idols/gods. But of course there are gods, such as the "prince"/god of Persia (Daniel 10:13) who was to fight "MIchael, one of the chief princes". The gods/idols are the fallen angels, whose leader is the dragon/devil. Basically, sacrificing to idols is devil worshipping.

I would like to know, what do you think it means when something is sacrificed for angel or demon? How can it be eaten after it has been sacrificed?

 

[metis]

In regards to the OP, my question is "Gee, where have we seen this before?". You know, the "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is 'blind' element".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The general notion of the blind leading the blind is someone, not knowing what they are talking about, leading the many. The "many", such as the "many" of Matthew 7:13-15 being led to "destruction" by the "false prophet". Now who was blinded by a supposed angel of light, which apparently according to Paul, is often the appearance of Satan, and has gone onto be the spiritual leader of approximately 2 billion "Christians"? Tell me that Paul, blinded by an angel of light, is not the false prophet of Matthew 7:15, and is leading the "many" to "destruction".

The blind leading the blind can be considered as men leading men with their own interpretations over God's appointed Messengers.

Therin is the warning given in scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[2ndpillar]

The blind leading the blind can be considered as men leading men with their own interpretations over God's appointed Messengers.

Therin is the warning given in scriptures.

Regards Tony

And whose interpretation should one use? (1 John 2:27)

 

[2ndpillar]

In regards to the OP, my question is "Gee, where have we seen this before?". You know, the "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is 'blind' element".

Well, I guess we all have to speak for oneself.

 

[2ndpillar]

I would like to know, what do you think it means when something is sacrificed for angel or demon? How can it be eaten after it has been sacrificed?

Well, it is like your backyard pig meat barbeque. The aroma goes to the unseen gods, but you eat the flesh of the swine. (Isaiah 66:17)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And whose interpretation should one use? (1 John 2:27)

The quoted passage says; "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Thus it is now Christ, The Father, Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God that is that teacher that must abide within.

The new Name that guides us to all Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Shaul]

There apparently are two different Talmuds that I am aware of, the Jerusalem Talmud, and the Babylonian Talmud. As for the Jewish version of Ezekiel, Ezekiel 34 - CJB Bible - Bible Study Tools , it reads:

2 "Human being, prophesy against the shepherds of Isra'el. Prophesy! Tell them, the shepherds, that Adonai ELOHIM says this: 'Woe to the shepherds of Isra'el who feed themselves! Shouldn't the shepherds feed the sheep?.... I am against the shepherds.... make them cease from feeding sheep (10).

As for unity of thought among the Jews, apparently in Israel there are several branches such as: Haredi Judaism, Religious Zionism, Masortim (traditional) and Hiloni (secular) Jews. The U.S. has somewhat different divisions. 2000 years ago there were Pharisees, who apparently believed in resurrection, and the Sadducees who did not. It would seem a wide gap in the understanding of the law and the prophets. As for Hebrew being the native language of the Jews, well English, Russian, and Modern Hebrew would probably be the most spoken languages by the Jews. In the 1800s, it would have probably been Yiddish. The one's who knew Hebrew best would most likely be the Jewish leaders/judges, who are under condemnation in Ezekiel 34. As for "understanding" what is in the law and the prophets, well Daniel 12:10 states that only the discerning will understand at the "end time". Books such as Hosea 5 & 6 would indicate that Judah/Jews will remain under judgment until after the 2nd day. History, such as the 2nd world war, seems to indicate that that judgment was in affect after your Talmuds were originally written and edited.

You are spouting nonsense. “Talmud” translates as Teachings in English. The term is the collection which includes both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. They are two parts on one collection. Your quotation of the “Jewish version of Ezekiel”[sic] is wrong. Here is a copy of the text of Ezekiel 34:2,

בֶּן־אָדָ֕ם הִנָּבֵ֖א עַל־רוֹעֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל הִנָּבֵ֣א וְאָֽמַרְתָּ֩ אֲלֵיהֶ֨ם לָרֹעִ֜ים כֹּֽה־אָמַ֣ר | אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה ה֚וֹי רֹעֵ֚י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ אֲשֶׁ֚ר הָיוּ֙ רֹעִ֣ים אוֹתָ֔ם הֲל֣וֹא הַצֹּ֔אן יִרְע֖וּ הָֽרֹעִֽים

I never said that Jews had a monolithic understanding of the Torah. So you blather doesn’t even apply. What I wrote was that the Jewish understanding of it is based on an unfiltered reading of it. Jews are in unity that Torah is authoritative. Your misinterpretation of Ezekiel 34 is one that is common among Jew haters through the centuries. It is also rank inanity. HaShem has not forsaken Israel. Nor will He ever. Torah is clear the HaShem will never break the covenant between Him and Israel.

 

[2ndpillar]

The quoted passage says; "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Thus it is now Christ, The Father, Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God that is that teacher that must abide within.

The new Name that guides us to all Truth.

Regards Tony

Yeah sure. Baha, the Muslim, having his followers teach the Trinity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah sure. Baha, the Muslim, having his followers teach the Trinity.

That is incorrect and not what Baha'u'llah taught. That is a blind statement.

Regards Tony

 

[2ndpillar]

You are spouting nonsense. “Talmud” translates as Teachings in English. The term is the collection which includes both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. They are two parts on one collection. Your quotation of the “Jewish version of Ezekiel”[sic] is wrong. Here is a copy of the text of Ezekiel 34:2,

בֶּן־אָדָ֕ם הִנָּבֵ֖א עַל־רוֹעֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל הִנָּבֵ֣א וְאָֽמַרְתָּ֩ אֲלֵיהֶ֨ם לָרֹעִ֜ים כֹּֽה־אָמַ֣ר | אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה ה֚וֹי רֹעֵ֚י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ אֲשֶׁ֚ר הָיוּ֙ רֹעִ֣ים אוֹתָ֔ם הֲל֣וֹא הַצֹּ֔אן יִרְע֖וּ הָֽרֹעִֽים

I never said that Jews had a monolithic understanding of the Torah. So you blather doesn’t even apply. What I wrote was that the Jewish understanding of it is based on an unfiltered reading of it. Jews are in unity that Torah is authoritative. Your misinterpretation of Ezekiel 34 is one that is common among Jew haters through the centuries. It is also rank inanity. HaShem has not forsaken Israel. Nor will He ever. Torah is clear the HaShem will never break the covenant between Him and Israel.

Yeah sure. There are two Talmuds, one is generally considered authoritative and one is not. They have two different edit dates. Torah is clear that Judah is under judgment until "they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face" (Hosea 5:15), or until "they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days" (Hosea 3:5) "Therefore I am like a moth to Ephraim, and like rottenness to the house of Judah/Jews" (Hosea 5:12). No, we are just now in the "last days" and "Ephraim/house of Israel, remains "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:24), and have yet to be given a "new heart" and a "new Spirit" (Ez 36:27). The "stick" of Judah remains apart from the "stick" of "Ephraim" (Ez 37:16), and they do not have "My servant David" as their "king", and both live in the land "I gave to Jacob" (Ez 37:24). And the nations mentioned in Jeremiah 30:11 haven't been destroyed "completely". The statue of Daniel 2 remains tottering, and is yet to be fully smashed (Daniel 2:44-45). In fact your Babylon Talmud is named after Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, which smashed Jerusalem and the house of Judah.

 

[2ndpillar]

That is incorrect and not what Baha'u'llah taught. That is a blind statement.

Regards Tony

Well, that is what you are inferring. Who is the "Father", and what is the meaning of the anointing? And what is Baha's position with regards to "Christ", the "Father", and the anointing, which is to say the so calledTrinity?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, that is what you are inferring. Who is the "Father", and what is the meaning of the anointing? And what is Baha's position with regards to "Christ", the "Father", and the anointing, which is to say the so calledTrinity?

There is no Trinity with God.

God is exalted above all knowledge. This has been explained in detail by Baha'u'llah.

'Christ', which means 'Annointed One' , is a 'Station' of the Holy Spirit, to which Jesus and all God's Messengers eminate from, they are all anointed of the Holy Spirit and come into being of the Holy Spirit.

We are born of the Human Spirit and must be born again in Faith of the Messenger to become a soul that will in turn reflect the Holy Spirit.

All we can know of God is the Messenger. All praise of God reverts to the Messenger a,s God is above all praise and attributes.

Big topic, a lot now explained in over 100 volumes of scripture.

Regards Tony