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Who embarked Isra/Mir'aj-Prophet Muhammad or Moses?

Discussion in 'Qur'anist DIR' started by Union, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    I don't why u insist on your opinion

    This is clear that مسجد الحرام used more than 10 times in Quran and all of them refer to that one that is located in mecca
    U need to study more
    I'm sure if an interpreter knows what u say he will laugh!!

    الفتح
    لَّقَدْ صَدَقَ اللَّهُ رَسُولَهُ الرُّؤْيَا بِالْحَقِّ لَتَدْخُلُنَّ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ إِن شَاءَ اللَّهُ آمِنِينَ مُحَلِّقِينَ رُءُوسَكُمْ وَمُقَصِّرِينَ لَا تَخَافُونَ فَعَلِمَ مَا لَمْ تَعْلَمُوا فَجَعَلَ مِن دُونِ ذَٰلِكَ فَتْحًا قَرِيبًا
    Certainly has Allah showed to His Messenger the vision in truth. You will surely enter al-Masjid al-Haram, if Allah wills, in safety, with your heads shaved and [hair] shortened, not fearing [anyone]. He knew what you did not know and has arranged before that a conquest near [at hand]. (27)
     
  2. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    At least you realize your own blunder !! You are lucky that you are in Islam DIR not in debate section ;)
     
  3. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    مسجد الحرام in 17:1 is linked with Moses in 17:2 - which is evidently supporting that in Prophet Moses' time there was another AMAH .

    It doubly linked with 10:87 where Almighty GOD instructed Prophet Moses to establish Qiblah in Egypt .And the Qiblah was determined by AMAH .
     
  4. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Have u ever heard of جمله معترضه in Arabic
    This sentence means that it doesn't have to do with previous sentences and the next ones and Quran has some of this kind
    I read a popular interpretation in Shia namely المیزان
    It says from verse 2 to 9 are معترضه

    Besides I don't know why u intentionality overlook all traditions that it about this occurrence
    Like this verse
    الأحزاب
    وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا
    And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. (33)

    See
    انما یرید ...
    Is considered معترضه
    Because befor and after that it says about prophet's wives
    But this passage addresses male not women

    My knowledge about quranic verses isn't good otherwise I provided more example of that
     
    #64 interminable, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  5. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    No. I did not realize that. I meant those verses, just like the Mi'raj never contradict with science. But if we think like you, we shoul say that those verses contradict with science.
     
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  6. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    Another verse which proves that Prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him and his pure progeny ) wet to Mi'raj and saw the other Prophets(anwawas) and talk with them.

    'Ask[ O Muhammad ] those of Our Messengers We sent before thee: Have We appointed, apart from the All-merciful, gods to be served?'[43:45]

    This verse proves that Prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him and his pure progeny ) saw the other Messengers that passed away before him and also talked with them. So, this verse proves his Mi'raj, too.
     
    #66 mojtaba, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  7. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    It depends on the context . In case of 17:1 , keeping the attention within the Qur'an , the answer of the Question " Who embarked the Isra?" , the answer is in 17:2 , "it was Prophet Moses" . It contradicts the Muslim tradition but it doesn't contradict the Qur'an .

    Prophet Moses' night journey is described in Qur'an in several passages . The same word اسرى has been used associated to Prophet Moses' journey .

    20.77 And We had inspired to Moses, "Travel by night with My servants and strike for them a dry path through the sea; you will not fear being overtaken [by Pharaoh] nor be afraid [of drowning]."

    وَلَقَدْ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَسْرِ بِعِبَادِي فَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ طَرِيقًا فِي الْبَحْرِ يَبَسًا لَّا تَخَافُ دَرَكًا وَلَا تَخْشَىٰ

    26.52 And We inspired to Moses, "Travel by night with My servants; indeed, you will be pursued."

    وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَسْرِ بِعِبَادِي إِنَّكُم مُّتَّبَعُونَ

    Qur'an is the only source of Islam . Hadith has nothing to do with Islam .
    There is no feminine of أَهْلَ . It refers to the wives of the Prophet and not any male person somewhere from outside . If you pay attention to the other occurrences of the word Ahl in Qur'an you will see the same grammatical implication implied to Prophet Abraham's wife , Prophet Moses' mother etc. Though those verses are talking about only women أَهْلَ is used as this word is not having any feminine form .
     
  8. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    The begining of the travel of Prophet Moses was Egypt. While the verse of Isra[17:1] says that the begining of the Isra of Prophet Muhammad was Masjidul Haram.

    According to Quran, Masjidul Haram(مسجد الحرام) is not Egypt and it is a Mosque in the Arabia, where Prophet lived in.See,
    2:191
    2:196
    2:217
    5:2
    8:34
    9:7
    9:19
    22:25
    48:25
    48:2

    Also, there are a verse which says Prophet Muhammad saw the Prophets whom passed away before him and talked with them. See post #66.
     
    #68 mojtaba, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  9. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    These types of statements in Qur'an should be taken hypothetically and not literally . Hence it implies " If you would ask..." .

    If you insist on its literal meaning then only rational explanation to this is Prophet Muhammad met with angels in his life time who are also Rasul and had the opportunity to ask them the question as above . The evidence in this support is in Qur'an .

    The rest part of assumption that Prophet Muhammad met other messengers in heaven are from tradition and not from Qur'an .
     
  10. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    I didn't mean اهل I meant عنکم

    Besides I didn't know that u r quranist

    Would u please tell me how did u get the details of daily prayer from Quran

    Or details of pilgrimage to mecca and so on
     
  11. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    No. You can not say that. You can not change the verse of Holy Quran according to your imagination.

    Also, there are verses which prove that those Messengers were not angels. For example see,

    And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory![5:116]

    If you were right, why would not Allah say,' O Muhammad ask the angels whom we sent to the Messengers before you....'???
     
    #71 mojtaba, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  12. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    Qur'an never says that there was only one AMAH . Verse 17:1+17:2+10:87 are internal evidences that AMAH existed in Prophet Moses' time in Egypt . Also note that AMAH is not a Proper Noun rather just nouns . Its literal translation is the mosque which is sacred/restricted .

    The burning question is Prophet Muhammad is not mentioned in the context of Isra in anywhere in Qur'an while Prophet Moses is evidently involved in this journey throughout the Qur'an with name . An honest reader of Qur'an can immediately identify Prophet Moses to be the candidate of this journey while Prophet Muhammad is not farly related to it .

    And regarding Prophet Muhammad saw others Messengers , I replied below . Thanks .
     
  13. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    Right Direction :). Show me support from Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad met any Rasul in his life time apart from any angel .
     
  14. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    You have not any evidences from Quran. Rather, I brought 10 verses which proves that the begining of Isra was from Mecca. You are interpriting Quran by your imaginations.

    Not important. Because all the Muslims from the begining of Islam till now are aware that it was about Prophet Muhammad.
     
    #74 mojtaba, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  15. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    That verse which I mentioned.

    'Ask[ O Muhammad ] those of Our Messengers We sent before thee: Have We appointed, apart from the All-merciful, gods to be served?'[43:45]
     
  16. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    Please elaborate a bit more . May be I didn't understand you rightly .
    Yes I am a Muslim who follow Qur'an only and the details of Salah and Hajj have discussed in this DIR in different threads . Please check them up .This thread is dedicated for something else hence I don't want this to go off topic . If you would like to open a new thread about those topics , please pm me when you are done . Thanks .
     
  17. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    Also I add the ff verse,

    Indeed, We sent before thee Messengers unto their people, and they brought them the clear signs; then We took vengeance upon those who sinned; and it was ever a duty incumbent upon Us, to help the believers.[30:47]
     
    #77 mojtaba, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  18. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    And I confirmed messengers in this verse were angels whom Prophet met :

    [002:097] Inform the one who is the enemy of Gibrael _ (the angel who brought the revelation). It is of course by Allah’s leave that he revealed the Qur’an to your heart. It confirms that which preceded it. It is the guidance and the good news for the believers.

    [003:124] (Remember) when you said to the believers, “Will it not be enough for you (to know) that your Lord will (bolster and) help you with three thousand angels sent down (to assist you)?”

    [008:009] (Remember) when you implored your Lord for help. He responded to your call and said, “I will surely send a thousand angels (following each other) in succession.”

    [035:001] All praise is for Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, the One Who appointed angels _ with two, three or four pairs of wings _ as His messengers. He adds to the creation as He pleases. Allah is indeed capable of doing everything!

    I have proofs from Qur'an to support my view while you have none .
     
  19. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    My last post. I think it is enough and more than this is indeed wasting of time.

    The verses which you brought do not make any sense.

    But,

    1.Allah says that the Messengers who were before Prophet Muhammad, were human, not angel:

    Indeed, We sent before thee Messengers unto their people, and they brought them the clear signs; then We took vengeance upon those who sinned; and it was ever a duty incumbent upon Us, to help the believers.[30:47]

    2. There is a verse which is like that verse which I mentioned:

    And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory![5:116]

    Bye!
     
    #79 mojtaba, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  20. Union

    Union Well-Known Member

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    Respective responds :

    1. Qur'an confirms that the messengers are also from the angels and angels were created before Prophet Adam , then how it is possible that no messengers from angels ever existed before Prophet Muhammad . Traditionally it is believed that angel messengers came to Prophet Abaraham and Lot to warn their clans and brothers .

    Qur'an also confirms that the angels who take life are also messengers of Almighty GOD . Before Prophet Muhammad some billions people must have died and the messenger angels must have taken their lives with the leave of Almighty GOD . It also proves that messengers from angels were there prior Prophet Muhammad .

    And also Archangel Gabriel etc.

    Then ? Is it a contradiction ? Let me leave it with you to dig it out ....

    2. Similar that you cited :

    [004:172] The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.
     
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