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Featured Who do YOU say Jesus is?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Spartan, May 3, 2019.

  1. Spartan

    Spartan Active Member

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    In the Bible Jesus is clearly identified as the divine, pre-incarnate God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Trinity). Two articles provide backup for this:

    The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture
    Jesus Must be Jehovah

    The Bible also identifies Jesus as the Creator of all things: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." - Colossians 1:16

    The Bible also says that Jesus existed as God BEFORE his incarnation as a man (Philippians 2:5-7, etc.).

    The primary purpose of this thread is designed to find out who people say Jesus is. Is he God incarnate? Is he the Creator God like the Bible says or is he a created being? WAS JESUS RESURRECTED from the dead as all four Gospels attest (i.e. is Jesus the resurrected Savior)?
     
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  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Jesus, to me, was probably a historical character, that is, was an actual person rather than a purely fictional one, who served as the central figure of a future religion, and whose words have been embellished to include various words and supernatural acts to suggest divinity..
     
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  3. Spartan

    Spartan Active Member

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    I'll start.

    I say,
    Do you have evidence Jesus' words have been embellished? If so I'd like to see it.
     
  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    So I saw Jesus as the self, one's self. An allegory of each person's individual spiritual struggle. Ideally to place our self not as a disciple but as a participant in the persona of Jesus. IOW, we are Jesus. This, IMO puts a very interesting perspective on the story.
     
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  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Not likely in the literal sense, although one can say that each of us have a "piece" of God in us, which many call the "soul".

    The Trinitarian concept has been covered many times here at RF, and the one thing I usually point out is that this was a highly contentious concept that certainly was not universal in the early Church. Matter of fact, there's a compromise in it that was put in to bring those within the Arianism camp into the fold. Taken literally, it actually defies logic. Taken figuratively, which I do, then it can make sense.

    Certainly, Jesus is not the Father. At one point, for example, Jesus says he doesn't know when the end of times will be and that only the Father knows for sure. Therefore, Jesus is not omniscient if we go by that statement and some other questions he periodically asked.

    The issue of "incarnate" is interesting since the use of "essence" is important here, namely that it was believed in the early Church that Jesus was of the "essence" of God. This is a Hellenized concept used extensively in the N.T. even though the word "essence" itself is not used.

    Jesus was a person, born of a woman, with human qualities. But when we inject "essence" into this, that changes things dramatically. Jesus did not just speak as a Jewish man who lived almost 2000 years ago but as the "essence" of God on Earth according to the Trinitarian concept. To the extent that this is true, I do not know, but I do believe with reservations, but there's no doubt that his message was truly important and significant. There's much more to be said about this, but I'll stop here on this.

    I don't know because there simply is no way of knowing that this actually occurred. Yes, there are the testimonies, but are they the byproduct of what actually happen or some dream(s)?

    Dreams back then were often considered "visions", so it's hypothetically possible that these "visions" may have been a byproduct of a consortium of dreams. And if one checks it out, the four gospels do not agree with each other on this as no two of them match. However, something unusual happened, no doubt.

    To the literalist, what I write above is not going to go over well, but I've never been a scriptural literalist. When I first started teaching, I taught history, and one thing one quickly learns when doing the research is that what we read are people's take on what supposedly happened.

    With scripture, it's even more complicated because of time (almost 2000 years ago), authorship (often unknown), and subjectivity (the authors were clearly writing from the paradigm of being believers). Put the three together, and there's plenty of reason why using a literalistic approach really doesn't make much sense, imo.

    Anyhow, I gotta stop as I'm leaving shortly.
     
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  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God does not have a body and the Bible never says He does. It says He is a Spirit.

    I do not believe it is saying that. It is saying what is now Jesus has the indwelling God.

    I believe Jesus carries the identification of God because God is in Him.

    I believe He is both.

    I believe He was.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is pure fantasy.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe we are only Jesus if we receive Him as Lord and Savior.
     
  9. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    A historical reconstruction would be as follows:-
    Jesus was an average person like everyone else. He became spiritually motivated to join an eschatological Jewish religious group headed by John the Baptist. He proved particularly talented as a preacher and miracle worker (a form of religious leadership still common in many parts of the world) and attracted followers. After John's imprisonment and death, he took over leadership of a splinter group that became a distinctive (though small) eschatological movement. Motivated by some spiritual or visionary experiences, he thought that God's new world order would arrive if he went to the Temple at Passover and proclaimed the end of the current order and beginning of the new. He caused disruption during the religious events of the day and was apprehended by the Romans. His proclamations about new world order did not go down well with both the Roman authorities and Jewish priests, and his contacts with John the Baptist made his activities look seditious.So he was crucified for treason. He died.

    Some of his followers were severely shocked by the failure of Jesus's prophecies about a new world order, and this shock resulted in psychological experiences that convinced them that God has raised Jesus from the dead and in fact the eschatological events are actually unfolding. That gave them a reason to continue the movement onwards.
     
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  10. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I certainly agree that he was enlightened.. a holy man.. and I too think his followers embellished his story to include supernatural events. In a way I find that sad.. as if he wasn't enough without the walking on water stuff.
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe he fed 5,000 and walked on water?
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    A renegade who probably deserved what he he was given, given historical norms.
     
    #12 Rival, May 3, 2019
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  13. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Jesus was probably propaganda ingeniously devised by the Romans to placate the Jews.
     
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  14. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    I believe he was an advanced spiritual being who was too ahead of his time and the people were not ready and made a confusing mess of the situation.
    Being an Advaita follower (non-dual=God and creation are not two) I don't believe that question is correctly put. God (the One Consciousness) is incarnate in all living things but Jesus was more advanced in his evolution towards realizing that.
    The historical events are lost to time but my key thought is that the event is not terribly important one way or the other to us. It is the message of love. peace and personal spiritual ascendancy that is timeless and important.

    My personal thought from modern psychic sources is that he nearly died during the crucifixion, physically recovered using near miraculous abilities, and lived out his life in southern France with his wife Mary Magdalene.

    But I must stress the historical events are not what is most important.
     
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  15. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Jesus was a manifestation on Earth of the eternal Avatar along with Buddha, Krishna, Rama and others. Every time the Avatar incarnates, his mission is to give a spiritual push and the nature of the push varies based on the conditions and people that exist at that time and place.
     
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  16. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Nope.. Jesus wasn't a renegade.. The Sermon on the Mount is about non violent resistance to the Roman occupation. That's why it was studied by Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
     
  17. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    That is if you believe he said that.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Modern psychic sources??????????? LOLOL
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    We have no way of knowing, but the Sermon on the Mount is an amazing and enlightened bit of rhetoric. Somebody thought it and wrote it.
     
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  20. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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