Who Do Christians Follow Paul or Jesus(pbuh)???

[A Thousand Suns]

1)Jesus(pbuh) told 3 times in New-testament that God is One

(Mk 12:29)"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one"

(Eph 4:6) "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

(Jas 2:19)"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder"

Paul said god is three---He developed the concept of TRINITY Which is nowhere to be found in BIBLE----Trinity was doctrine derived 300 years after jesus(pbuh) death ---if it was a true doctrine Jesus(pbuh) would explicitly spoken of it but its not the case----The only verse close to TRINITY was in Gospel OF Jhon' In 'King James Version' of Bible But this verse is deleted in the 'New Revised Standard Version' of Bible as the scholars of Bible thought it was fabricated into Bible----Apart from that there is not a single verse in complete Bible which even remotely speaks about TRINITY

This is what is written in the opening page of New Revised Standard Version

"King James Version has serious defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of biblical studies and the discovery of many biblical manuscripts more ancient than those on which the King James Version was based made it apparent that these defects were so many as to call for revision."


2)Jesus(pbuh) taught the Law of God

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil"- Matthew 5:17-29

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." -Revelation 14:12.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." -1 John 5:2-3

According to Jesus(pbuh) Law of Moses(pbuh) is still valid and if you read the Old-Testament Moses said there are three prophets to follow :

1)Jhon the baptist
2)jesus
3)Is still a mystery


But Paul broke the law of God----and told the law of previous Prophets isn't needed any more---According to him "Jesus fulfilled the law" which is in direct contradiction of what Jesus(pbuh) said:
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

And according to Jesus(pbuh) there would be one more prophet to follow him

1)Is still a mystery

Quran replies in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel"

Conclusion

So we can clearly see Paul and his theologians are going directly against Jesus(pbuh) teachings---This is how Quran Replies to them

"Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are." (Qur'an 5:72)

"People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust." (Qur'an 4:171)

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Also two more Question some Christians Argue that Jesus(pbuh) is God---which isn't present in Bible either like i mentioned earlier Jesus(pbuh) clearly said God is One And he is the Messenger OF God

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

So the Question is

Q-How can Mary(as) be a mother of God and at the same time a Daughter of God?

Also some Christian argue that Mary(as) wasn't married to anyone---so Jesus(pbuh) has to be BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD---My Question to them

Q)According to Bible and Quran Adam(pbuh) didn't have mother or father so he should be a bigger SON OF GOD then Jesus(pbuh) according to that logic

This is how Jesus(pbuh) will respond to these people according to Quran

[Quran5:116-118]

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

 

[Reverend Rick]

You have presented a good argument, (or at least copied and pasted one).

Are you willing to discuss this in your own words now?

 

[A Thousand Suns]

You have presented a good argument, (or at least copied and pasted one).

Are you willing to discuss this in your own words now?

Well whats your reply---I thought many Christians will deny it or at least try to QUOTE bible 'out of context' to try to prove me wrong---but oHH well i will keep my finger crossed )(

Btw I wrote the complete thing

 

[allright]

1 Ephesians was written by Paul
2 John was not speaking of the ten commandments which you would know if you read 1 John
How come you left out 1John 5:5 "Who is it who overcomes the world but he who believes Jesus is the Son of God"
3 Where in the Bible did Moses ever speak of John the Baptist or two prophets to come.

 

[Reverend Rick]

OK, I am willing to admit that I have problems with Paul and the trinity. I have no problem praying to God only.

That said, proves my open mind about this subject.

I have a long way to go about following Muhammad (PBUH). Not that I doubt him,I'm just not ready to follow him either till I read the Koran and make an informed decision.

In my mind, Jesus and Muhammad should agree with each other if they are both messengers of God.

Here is my first question:

Jesus turned water into wine. I personally believe drunkenness is a sin and nothing unto it's self is unclean unless you esteem it to be unclean.

In plain language, if I have a glass of wine and do not get drunk, where is the sin?

Jesus turned water into wine and Muhammad, (PBUH) says any drinking no matter how small is wrong? Please explain the contradiction.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Ignoring the Islamic propaganda in the first two posts....

It has been my experience, both as a Christian and an ex-Christian, that the majority of sermons I heard in Southern Baptist churches focused more on Pauls letters than on Jesus' words.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Ignoring the Islamic propaganda in the first two posts....

It has been my experience, both as a Christian and an ex-Christian, that the majority of sermons I heard in Southern Baptist churches focused more on Pauls letters than on Jesus' words.

I have to agree. Lets think about this one for a moment.

Paul never met Jesus.

Over 50 years later a dead Jesus appears to a man, (ex-pagan, roman citizen) He never met in real life.

We just have to take Paul's word on this.

Paul tells us to ignore the old laws and makes new ones.

 

[allright]

Also two more Question some Christians Argue that Jesus(pbuh) is God---which isn't present in Bible either like i mentioned earlier Jesus(pbuh) clearly said God is One And he is the Messenger OF God

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

So the Question is

Q-How can Mary(as) be a mother of God and at the same time a Daughter of God?

Also some Christian argue that Mary(as) wasn't married to anyone---so Jesus(pbuh) has to be BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD---My Question to them

Q)According to Bible and Quran Adam(pbuh) didn't have mother or father so he should be a bigger SON OF GOD then Jesus(pbuh) according to that logic

This is how Jesus(pbuh) will respond to these people according to Quran

[Quran5:116-118]

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

1 You become a daughter or son of God by receiving Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
2 Jesus said people would be judged by the words he spoke, not by the Koran.
3 Adam was created, Jesus is eternal as he said to the Jews "before Abraham was I am" directly declaring himself to be God"

 

[A Thousand Suns]

OK, I am willing to admit that I have problems with Paul and the trinity. I have no problem praying to God only.

That said, proves my open mind about this subject.

Yes good i admire that

I have a long way to go about following Muhammad (PBUH). Not that I doubt him,I'm just not ready to follow him either till I read the Koran and make an informed decision.

In my mind, Jesus and Muhammad should agree with each other if they are both messengers of God.

Well Good ---And actually they both agree with each other

Here is my first question:

Jesus turned water into wine. I personally believe drunkenness is a sin and nothing unto it's self is unclean unless you esteem it to be unclean.

In plain language, if I have a glass of wine and do not get drunk, where is the sin?

Jesus turned water into wine and Muhammad, (PBUH) says any drinking no matter how small is wrong? Please explain the contradiction.

Well you first have to know Alcohol is also prohibited in Bible

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" {Proverbs 20:1}

"And be not drunk with wine " { Ephesians 5:18}

 

[A Thousand Suns]

I have to agree. Lets think about this one for a moment.

Paul never met Jesus.

Over 50 years later a dead Jesus appears to a man, (ex-pagan, roman citizen) He never met in real life.

We just have to take Paul's word on this.

Paul tells us to ignore the old laws and makes new ones.

How can we take Paul's word for it because he is directly contradicting the teachings of Jesus(pbuh)

 

[A Thousand Suns]

1 You become a daughter or son of God by receiving Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
2 Jesus said people would be judged by the words he spoke, not by the Koran.
3 Adam was created, Jesus is eternal as he said to the Jews "before Abraham was I am" directly declaring himself to be God"

How does this and your upper post makes sense

Btw Quote the complete thing "before Abraham was I am"

 

[smokydot]

I have to agree. Lets think about this one for a moment.

Paul never met Jesus.

Except for that meeting on the road to Damascus.

Over 50 years later a dead Jesus appears to a man, (ex-pagan, roman citizen) He never met in real life.

Over 50 years is a bit of a stretch, considering that Paul met the apostles, including James, the brother of Jesus.
Over 50 years later would have made them all octogenarians.
Not likely. . .since Paul was beaten so many times and survived.

We just have to take Paul's word on this.

Yes, you have to decide if you think Paul is lying or not.
That's a matter of faith, not proof.

Paul tells us to ignore the old laws and makes new ones.

Paul, as well as the book of Hebrews not written by Paul, tells us that the Levitical (ceremonial) law has been fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, is are now obsolete.
Paul does not tell us to ignore the moral laws (ten commandments).
There are new laws in the NT; e.g., regarding marriage and divorce.

 

[SkeetersSurprise]

Well just to add my input here. God and Jesus are One. Just as my wife and I are one. Are finite minds can not comprehend the God family. I recently joined the ranks of not believing in the Trinity as well. Paul I have always been leary of. Churches do put Paul and his words much of the time before Jesus' own words. I ignore most of Paul's books besides Hebrews. I say that because there is much debate as to the writer of Hebrews. I follow the Gospels and are really into the books of Peter and John since they were actually followers of Jesus in all sense of the meaning. This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play. When we are in a true relationship with God we are at peace and we know the truth. If we read the Old Testament which Paul refers to very much we have truth of what Paul states. The rest we have to take his word for it. Before I go way off here. The Commandments have never been done away with. (1 John 5:2,3) We can only follow His commandments with the help of the Holy Spirit. There are others in 1and2nd John and the later chapters of Revelation as well. If wisdom is needed for understanding refer to James 1:5-7. I have taken up enough space and kind of went way off the subject. God Bless you all. Peace out...

 

[no-body]

Except for that meeting on the road to Damascus.

The account is written in such a way that it can be seen as more figurative than literal.

Seeing as it supposedly happened after Jesus was Crucified and Paul spent most of his time persecuting followers of Christ, it's not that hard a leap to imagine he had suffered some sort of psychological or physiological attack.

 

[allright]

How does this and your upper post makes sense

Btw Quote the complete thing "before Abraham was I am"

Your making Islam look like a joke. Youve never read the Bible

This is the complete quote. If you read the Bible you would know that

Also answer my question "where in the Bible did Moses mention John the Baptist or that two prophets would come after him"

You dont have a clue

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, you have to decide if you think Paul is lying or not.
That's a matter of faith, not proof.

The thing is, having faith in God is much more comforting to me than having faith in Paul for my salvation.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Except for that meeting on the road to Damascus.



Over 50 years is a bit of a stretch, considering that Paul met the apostles, including James, the brother of Jesus.
Over 50 years later would have made them all octogenarians.
Not likely. . .since Paul was beaten so many times and survived.



Yes, you have to decide if you think Paul is lying or not.
That's a matter of faith, not proof.



Paul, as well as the book of Hebrews not written by Paul, tells us that the Levitical (ceremonial) law has been fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, is are now obsolete.
Paul does not tell us to ignore the moral laws (ten commandments).
There are new laws in the NT; e.g., regarding marriage and divorce.

Fisrt , where is you historic Proof that 'meeting on the road to Damascus.' and the other things you stated

Second , I proved it to you that Paul was clearly contradicting the teachings of Jesus(pbuh) and even what Moses(pbuh) taught---How can you put your faith on a person who's lying

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Well just to add my input here. God and Jesus are One. Just as my wife and I are one.

No its not certainly the same---Jesus(pbuh) clearly said

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]

I recently joined the ranks of not believing in the Trinity as well.

Well I congratulate you then

I follow the Gospels and are really into the books of Peter and John since they were actually followers of Jesus in all sense of the meaning. This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play.

and how does Holy Sprit comes into play here??And plz quote the bible

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Your making Islam look like a joke. Youve never read the Bible

How I am making Islam look Bad when we are discussing about Christianity here---And you clearly couldn't answer any of those QUESTION and the verses I quoted from Bible---instead you start talking about something else

This is the complete quote. If you read the Bible you would know that

how can i read from bible when you never told the name of the verse

Also answer my question "where in the Bible did Moses mention John the Baptist or that two prophets would come after him"

I will , as soon as I find the 'Text Document' where I gathered all my Bible quotes related to that