Who Claims Authority?

[cardero]

Such a monolithic topic that I couldn't do justice in a couple pages.

But to answer the question of the OP: Many claim authority.
Who actually has that authority? I believe that to be the Catholic Church.

Victor brings out a very interesting point. I am not so sure that faith and belief can be considered qualifying factors for authority. I know that there are many religions that are very knowledgeable and understanding of their respected scriptural texts but what I don’t know is, if these authors and historical figures even existed or if they were indeed inspired from GOD. Granted academic authority could be recognized and given to these scholars for the knowledge of these Holy texts by itself but I could also grant the same educated authority to knowledgeable Star Trek fans. The authority that I find difficult to grant from the evidence (or lack of evidence) available, is that they know GOD well enough to speak for or about Him. Since this is such a huge and difficult question to answer I would just assume the conclusion to such an important question like this would be answered by many religions leaders cautiously and without conceit.

 

[Scuba Pete]

II Corinthians 4:13 It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God. NIV

Faith plays a very important part in giving us the "right" to speak.

 

[cardero]

II Corinthians 4:13 It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God. NIV

Faith plays a very important part in giving us the "right" to speak.

"Faith is an excuse bestowed on people by themselves or another individual who is supposed to K(NOW), but doesn't."

HELLO IT'S ME An Interview With GOD
Chapter:Belief, Faith, & Joy
Page: 169









discrepancy

 

[michel]

II Corinthians 4:13 It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God. NIV

Faith plays a very important part in giving us the "right" to speak.

I see it this way; I have my personal relationship with God, and I listen to him, and pray to him. That is right for me.

I am not very good at taking 2nd hand experience on trust, and I don't believe in pushing what I believe onto others. I think this is a very personal thing; but obviously, with the function of congregations, my system won't work with others.

 

[PureX]

The truth is what is. And what is, is all around us, and is even in us. If I want to know the truth, all I have to do is recognize what's in and all around me. I need no "authorities" to recognize the truth for me, and neither does anyone else.

But there's a really big wrench in the works, here. And that wrench is our natural human desire to deny the truth of what is in favor of illusions of truth that make us feel better.

The truth about God is all around us, and is plain to see to anyone who is willing to look. The truth is that we simply do not know. Our definition of "God" is such that we cannot possibly verify the nature or existence of such an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent force. How can a finite being such as ourselves possibly verify the nature or existence of an infinite phenomena? What tools could we use? The answer is none. We don't have any tools to verify such a concept, and so to us, "God" remains an unverified concept. That doesn't mean that God does not exist. It does mean, however, that we can't know if God exists or not. And if we can't know if God exists, we can't know God's character or nature, either.

And convincing ourselves that God exists (or that God does not exist), by practicing self-deception, does not change the truth of what is: the truth that we simply do not know.

So if I meet a man who claims to speak for God, I know he's a liar and a fool. He's not a liar because he can't possibly speak for God, maybe he can, we don't know. He's a liar because I know that he can't know whether he speaks for God or not. As a human being, he doesn't possess the tools necessary to verify such a claim. And he's a fool, because he has fallen for his own lie. He has deceived himself.

But we humans are often liars and fools. It's in our nature to deceive ourselves into denying the truth of 'what is' in favor of imagined "truths" that make us feel better. So I'm not trying to humiliate people for fooling themselves into believing that they "know God". I, knowing full well that I cannot verify the existence or nature of "God", still choose to believe that God exists, and that the essential nature of God is love, even though I can't verify it. So in a way, I'm a willing fool, too, along with so many other human beings.

But I'm trying not to be a liar. I'm not claiming that I know that God exists, or that I know God's nature. And I'm not afraid to reject that claim by anyone else. I'm convinced that such self-deception is the root cause of much human suffering, and I would prefer not to support or promote it if I can help it.

 

[PureX]

I see it this way; I have my personal relationship with God, and I listen to him, and pray to him. That is right for me.

I am not very good at taking 2nd hand experience on trust, and I don't believe in pushing what I believe onto others. I think this is a very personal thing; but obviously, with the function of congregations, my system won't work with others.

Michel, I think this post speaks to your honesty and integrity.

Faith isn't pretending that we know things that we can't really know. Faith is choosing to believe things even though we can't know if they're true or not. And this is why humility is essential to real faith. Humility reminds us that we don't "know". Faith without humility becomes arrogant pretense. Far too many religious practitioners have lost humility and become the purveyors of their own arrogant religious pretenses. I thank you for remaining humble, and for sharing your beliefs with us rather than falling into the trap of arrogant pretense, and insisting that you "know God".

 

[sojourner]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the connection between the Gospel and Religion.

The Lord has given a lot of commandments that anyone can follow and be thusly blessed because every commandment comes with an associated blessing attached. Please do not read more into that statement than is intended, it is simply cause and effect, the Lords effect.

Gordon B Hinckley, president of the LDS Church and a living prophet was once asked, concerning a man who taught a non spiritual philosophy, "What is your stance with regard to this individual and his teachings?" and Bro. Hinckley's vigorous and positive response was profoundly simple. He said "If any man teaches others to do good, then let him teach it!"

This is the stance that I take as do the vast majority of LDS people. I find a great deal of that which is good, moral, descent, uplifting, and right on track with my own beliefs in just about every philosophy, Christian or not, that exists on earth. I condemn no man who honestly seeks to do well by the human family.

There is no right or wrong Gospel, there is only THE Gospel and you either understand it correctly or you understand it incorrectly. It is either the Gospel of Jesus Christ or it is not. A person either has the power and authority to bind in Heaven that which is bound on earth or they do not! There can be no middle ground. Any religious organization that cannot trace it's beginnings and authority in an UNBROKEN line, authority to authority, back to the hands of Jesus Christ has no authority to bind in Heaven any ordinance performed on earth.


The great apostasy of the dark ages quickly severed any and all authority of Christ on the earth necessitating the literal presence and re-dispensing of that authority by Christ Himself or those in His realm sent to do so. I know that that event has taken already taken place.

Christ was, and still is, very specific about the structure and authority of His Church. His church is open to all and a person who seeks all the blessings associated with it will embrace it with the humility of a little child or they will fall short of the mark.

Haughty indignant attitudes and stubborn posturing is pointless and will never, worlds without end, validate an invalid belief. Deciding for yourself what the Lord wants of you is foolish. And, sadly, the vast majority of the world who supposed their self fashioned doctrine to be of value to God will have to hear those stinging words which the Lord will speak to them when He says "I never knew you".

Vandr

Who is to say whose understanding is correct or incorrect?

Well...I guess, by that criterion, nobody has authority, whatever that means. Most Christians don't trace the "handing down of authority." And even those who do trace the unbroken lineage of apostolic succession admit that the line can't be proven. And most Christians don't believe that Joseph Smith had a direct line to Jesus, either. (Refer to my "red phone" argument.)

3 problems here: a) Many Mormons here have already argued that the "Apostasy" occurred much, much earlier than the Dark Ages. b) The great preponderance of the Body of Christ does not truly understand the gospel. c) How do you know that the "Apostasy" has taken place? Many Christians don't know any such thing.

See your own attitude in the pink sentence above.

The "red phone to God" argument does not hold water. Either the Body is one, or it is not.

 

[Evandr2]

Who is to say whose understanding is correct or incorrect?

hmmm..Lets see..I got it!..the Holy Ghost as a response to earnestly seeking wisdom.

Well...I guess, by that criterion, nobody has authority, whatever that means. Most Christians don't trace the "handing down of authority." And even those who do trace the unbroken lineage of apostolic succession admit that the line can't be proven. And most Christians don't believe that Joseph Smith had a direct line to Jesus, either. (Refer to my "red phone" argument.)

Joseph had no direct line to Jesus other than prayer. Christ chose the time, place and method for the revelation necessary to re-establish the Gospel in its purity and authority of the priesthood.

3 problems here: a) Many Mormons here have already argued that the "Apostasy" occurred much, much earlier than the Dark Ages. b) The great preponderance of the Body of Christ does not truly understand the gospel. c) How do you know that the "Apostasy" has taken place? Many Christians don't know any such thing.

A) I chose to site the Dark Ages because is the clearest time to show the gap without trying to get too specific. When the link of authority was actually severed with the death of the last remaining authorized figure is not important. What is important is that it happened.
B)You got that right. Sad part is it does not have to be so. Pride is the great stumbling block.
C)Personal revelation from the Holy Ghost. That is something that you will have to have the humility to discover for yourself.

See your own attitude in thepinksentence above.

Everybody has access to what you call the "red phone". Its called prayer. Or didn't you know that?

Vandr

 

[Evandr2]

Any religious organization that cannot trace it's beginnings and authority in an UNBROKEN line, authority to authority, back to the hands of Jesus Christ has no authority to bind in Heaven any ordinance performed on earth.

Allow me to clarify that statement.

Many will claim that because records may not exist by which to trace such authority it does not mean that such authority does not exist.

For clarification allow me to rephrase my statement:

Any religious organization whose beginnings and authority fail to be traced in an UNBROKEN line, authority to authority, "in the records of Heaven" back to the hands of Jesus Christ has no authority to bind in Heaven any ordinance performed on earth.

The servants of the Lord in His exalted realm are recording everything including who has been given authority and who pretends to have it.

Vandr

 

[CK7]

I believe God gives authorty to those He calls into the ministry and those He calls to prophecy, and to those that speak the truth of His even though they hold no leadership position. I was raised as a protostent Christian. I relized at a young age that I needed a personal savior, and I accepted the Almighty God, the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior. I have been called to minister the Gospel to who ever God would have me do to. Some may find this strange, but the fact is it is so simple the Bible states "a fool cannot error there in." I believe that if you are in Gods will, that He give you authority to speak the truth to others. Through His calling, and through His word.

 

[cardero]

Evandr2 writes: Everybody has access to what you call the "red phone". Its called prayer. Or didn't you know that?

But it seems that not everyone is qualified to receive or relay these phone messages unless you subscribe to their service.

SoyLeche writes: First of all, I don't accept you as a Prophet, nor do I believe that you have any authority to speak for God, so I take everything in your post as your own personal beliefs, whether or not that is how you view them.

 

[Evandr2]

I believe God gives authorty to those He calls into the ministry and those He calls to prophecy, and to those that speak the truth of His even though they hold no leadership position.

You are correct but keep in mind that we are not talking about the authority to speak. Any time that the Holy Ghost speaks through you, you are speaking with authority without error. Claiming to speak with the spirit as your guide does not count, it has to be happening in real time.

The authority that I refer to is the authority to act in an official capacity in the administration of the gospel. Administering with authority is not the same as preaching. You have to have been called and given authority to speak in the name of Jesus Christ when performing ordinances such as baptism, conferring the priesthood to someone, doing temple work, blessing in the name of Jesus Christ and so forth.

That authority can only be maintained under the auspices of a living prophet who will be at the head of the church of Jesus Christ.

Having that authority means belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ and adhering to no other religious philosophy.

Vandr

 

[Evandr2]

But it seems that not everyone is qualified to receive or relay these phone messages unless you subscribe to their service.

Lets get off the red phone analogy for a while and think.

Order is imperative in any organization.

Just because the Lord keeps His own agenda with regard to revelation does not mean that you or anybody else has been insulted.


Every man is entitled to revelation in that area to which he has been called to presides.

i.e.: personal revelation from the Holy Ghost for yourself, to a father with regard to his family, to a bishop with regard to his congregation and so forth all the way up to a prophet with regard to the church of Jesus Christ as a whole.

Amos 4:7

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, until he revealeth the secret unto his servants the prophets.

Nobody will receive revelation concerning that which they have no calling even if they do, as you so eloquently put it, "subscribe to the service"

Vandr

 

[cardero]

Evandr 2 writes: Lets get off the red phone analogy for a while and think.

Ok, what color would like to paint it?

Evandr 2 writes: Order is imperative in any organization.

What makes you think that the valid messages received from GOD are only of an organizational nature?

Evandr 2 writes: Just because the Lord keeps His own agenda with regard to revelation does not mean that you or anybody else has been insulted.

I wasn’t offended, there exists the possibility that Soyleche may be correct and that I haven’t been in communion with a Supreme BEing and that they could be my own personal beliefs. It is not that Soyleche denied me authority (which I would never claim in the first place) it is the fact that he claimed that authority was needed at all that I am questioning and why only his religion has acquired it when others have claimed the contrary.

Evandr 2 writes: Every man is entitled to revelation in that area to which he has been called to presides.
i.e.: personal revelation from the Holy Ghost for yourself, to a father with regard to his family, to a bishop with regard to his congregation and so forth all the way up to a prophet with regard to the church of Jesus Christ as a whole.

Amos 4:7

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, until he revealeth the secret unto his servants the prophets.

Nobody will receive revelation concerning that which they have no calling even if they do, as you so eloquently put it, "subscribe to the service"

As I mentioned before I do not believe that GOD is the only one who does the calling, I believe everyone has His number though. Some even keep it on speed dial. (sorry about that one)

 

[Aqualung]

I think his claim here is that everyone is preaching the wrong gospel (correct me if I'm wrong.) Yet, don't we all proclaim to the world to repent and believe, because the kingdom is at hand? Isn't that the gospel Christ preached?

Still, where does that talk about authority at all?

 

[sojourner]

hmmm..Lets see..I got it!..the Holy Ghost as a response to earnestly seeking wisdom.

Joseph had no direct line to Jesus other than prayer. Christ chose the time, place and method for the revelation necessary to re-establish the Gospel in its purity and authority of the priesthood.



A) I chose to site the Dark Ages because is the clearest time to show the gap without trying to get too specific. When the link of authority was actually severed with the death of the last remaining authorized figure is not important. What is important is that it happened.
B)You got that right. Sad part is it does not have to be so. Pride is the great stumbling block.
C)Personal revelation from the Holy Ghost. That is something that you will have to have the humility to discover for yourself.


Everybody has access to what you call the "red phone". Its called prayer. Or didn't you know that?

Vandr

Many different people claim inspiration. Who decides who is truly inspired? Different people cannot possess differing understandings? The Holy Ghost is now going to be held hostage to imparting only one particular message? I thought the Holy Spirit moved as it willed...not according to human dictates.

So...the Church Fathers had no direct line through prayer? The Pope has no direct line through prayer? The Patriarch has no direct line through prayer? The Archbishop has no direct line through prayer? Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone had not direct line through prayer? I suppose these people all misunderstood what was told them through prayer?

Sure it's important! Otherwise, how does one know who is truly inspired and who is "apostate" within the timeline of Xy?

Again, how do you know? Who told you? How do you know that you aren't the ones who are "mistaken?" I think that's a little arrogant.

So...only those who happen to agree with you have had a personal revelation? Again, I think that's hubris talking. Many people have had divine revelation in humility. Personally, I espouse belief...not knowledge.

That's what I've been saying all along! Don't you suppose that, just maybe, God has different conversations with different people? How arrogant to decide that your "conversation" is right, and everyone else's is "wrong."

In your earlier post you said, "Deciding for yourself what the Lord wants of you is foolish." But, isn't that what is called "discernment?" Who performs your discernment for you? Through prayer, we depend upon our own discernment of God's messages to us. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, our discernment is given creedence. This is not "indignant attitude and haughty posturing." It's belief. And who's to say whether belief is valid, or invalid, but the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit guides each? Arrogance and haughtiness is the assumption that "I'm right and you're mistaken." Why can't we agree that the Spirit guides as the Spirit will, and that the Spirit doesn't guide each in the same way?

 

[Aqualung]

As I mentioned before I do not believe that GOD is the only one who does the calling, I believe everyone has His number though. Some even keep it on speed dial. (sorry about that one)

We can talk to him all we want. We don't need special authority for that. He can talk to us all he wants. We don't need special authority for that. He can say to me, "Aqua, you really need to be reading your scriptures more." That doesn't give me the authority, however, to tell jonny, "Jonny, I have it from God that we need to be reading our scriputres more." God made no mention of jonny, and did not give me the authority to tell jonny. For all I know, Jonny reads his scriptures 9 hours a day. That's the difference between talking with God, acting for God, and acting for God with authority.

 

[sojourner]

Many will claim that because records may not exist by which to trace such authority it does not mean that such authority does not exist.

So, because the apostolic churches cannot produce traceable records of their unbroken line of apostolic succession, that doesn't mean that that authority does not exist. Is that what you're saying?

Any religious organization whose beginnings and authority fail to be traced in an UNBROKEN line, authority to authority, "in the records of Heaven" back to the hands of Jesus Christ has no authority to bind in Heaven any ordinance performed on earth.

How do we know what's recorded in the "records of heaven?" By discernment? Again, a personal matter.

 

[sojourner]

We can talk to him all we want. We don't need special authority for that. He can talk to us all he wants. We don't need special authority for that. He can say to me, "Aqua, you really need to be reading your scriptures more." That doesn't give me the authority, however, to tell jonny, "Jonny, I have it from God that we need to be reading our scriputres more." God made no mention of jonny, and did not give me the authority to tell jonny. For all I know, Jonny reads his scriptures 9 hours a day. That's the difference between talking with God, acting for God, and acting for God with authority.
[/color]

But Evandr said that the only "direct line" Joseph Smith had was prayer. And, as I understand it, his prayer was, "Which church is the correct one for me to join?" No mention of Aqua, or Jonny...or am I mistaken? For all Joseph Smith knew, the Christian Church was the correct one for Barton Stone...and me. And how did Joseph Smith know that God has not also granted authority to John Paul II and Benedict XVI to do God's authoritative work among their branch of the Faith?

 

[sojourner]

Every man is entitled to revelation in that area to which he has been called to presides.

BINGO!!!:takeabow: