Who causes christian adversity ?

[Sand Dancer]

There is no clergy / laity in christianity. All men stand on level ground at the foot of the cross (2Cor.5:10,11). A preacher may be corrected just as a church member may be corrected (Gal. 6:1,2). Many times the problems begin when those who are in power want more power. They will go beyond what the scriptures teach and that is sin (1Jn 3:4).

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you

I wish they weren't paid clergy though.That gives them a different position than the laity. I like the LDS way. No paid clergy.

 

[Gavin Luckenbach]

History shows that "real" Christian have never been popular with the world, and have been counted as the off-scouring among men, even or especially from those who have placed themselves as the guardians of Christian truth- the clergy of Christendom-.

Some might say: That's quite a accusation! My humble, serene and pious local priest a persecutor of Christians ? Well... maybe not, but think about this:

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

But, surely after that they would have changed, right ?
We would think that the ecclesiastical body would undergo a change of attitude, especially since they eventually seemingly accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior?

Well No! They didn't, because it was only a political ploy to fuse pagan and christian beliefs into a state controlled religion under Pontius Maximus(Constantine). This religious leader then decreed a host of unscriptural beliefs based on philosophies, metaphysics and pagan mythology instead of the Holy scriptures and the teachings of Christ. Many witch, by the way, are still embraced by Christendom today.

This later bred to a state controlled faith under Papal control, where any dissenting opinion, even or specifically based on the bible was declared heresy.
What then followed was a mock court who always ruled that the heretic was to be mercilessly tortured and burned at the stake along with his/her bible, (preferably slowly). The mignons to do the work were know as the Dominican Priests (The dogs of God) who specialized in flagellation, and viewed torture as a form of art.

Organized religious bodies that protested the Papal autocracy behaved no better, for instance John Calvin also burned Christians that did not agree with his so-called orthodox doctrines.

My question is this:

Has today's clergy class absolved themselves from the crimes of their predecessors, or have they continued their iniquity albeit in a more covert manner, thus deserving Christs accusation at Jo 8:44 ?

Do the clergy rightfully wear their high sounding titles due to their piety, great righteousness and God's approval, or rather have today's clergy exalted themselves, as the clergy of Jesus days have done ?

I am going to leave a short response. One statement and a few questions.

The Christian Church, historically even after Constantine (who only legalized the religion and made it acceptable, he may have been in error and a pagan himself, but individual Bishops at the time were already split and arguing about the nature of Christ, and also fairly independent) has always been persecuted by Kings and political powers outside of it. Even during the High Middle Ages, one could look at all corruption as that of the world (think of the parables of the weeds strangling out seed for the harvest) and not of the unity of the Christian faithful. God chooses some of us for certain purposes, and there are just as many good clergy-- what then was the goal of apostles? Why was Paul in a position of leadership: to prevent the myriad of errors and disunity seen throughout his letters.

What about the role of the Prophets and advisors of the Old Testament?

What about all the good that has come about out of structure? The Catholic church being one of the largest non-governmental charitable organizations?

Please show me one "pagan" idea fused into Christianity post-Constantine, that was not already present in theological discussion prior to being the State religion.

What do you believe Christ means when he gives certain commands and powers to the Apostles? Again, why are they distinct and important persons mentioned in the Gospels and why are they given certain duties over the myriad of other disciples following Jesus at the time? What about the tongues of fire? What about the missions bestowed upon Paul?

Looking at the history of the United States, as well as modern Protestant nations ( now majority atheist or irreligious, yet Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church) you will also see that the Catholic church and faithful clergymen have also been horribly persecuted. Horribly persecuted at the hands of modern political and religious powers to this very day.

As can be seen in the entirety of the second half of the New Testament. Adversity springs up constantly from disunity in doctrine, and even morality. Authority is very risky, but it can also save the even worse effects of disunity and aggression.

 

[oldbadger]

:

Those that persecuted and killed Jesus were the Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and Levitical Priests, together they made up the clergy of that time.

Could you paste up a verse to show that The Priests killed Jesus, please?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually Jesus's crucifixion was most likely a fabrication as it does not match real historical accounts.

What historical accounts?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wish they weren't paid clergy though.That gives them a different position than the laity. I like the LDS way. No paid clergy.

One way to look at it: if one person is expressing their faith through their entire life and they work as, say, a plumber or a nurse, they'd get paid for the work they do in their "ministry." Why shouldn't someone who works on church business full-time also get paid for their ministry?

Also, in practical terms, most churches' parishoners will have needs and demands to be satisfied in the middle of the day when most people are working. If your church doesn't have any paid staff, then either:

- those needs are going to go unmet, or
- you're going to need "unpaid clergy" with flexible schedules (e.g. retired folks or flexible self-employed people) to fill those roles. These people might be in short supply.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What historical accounts?

That Jesus was crucified. There are no actual accounts aside from the mythology itself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That Jesus was crucified. There are no actual accounts aside from the mythology itself.

But you said that there are actual accounts that Jesus wasn't crucified... or wasn't that what you were trying to say?

 

[Neuropteron]

Could you paste up a verse to show that The Priests killed Jesus, please?

Hello.
When Jesus exposed their wrong reasoning and showed them to be violators God's law on account of their adherence to man-made traditions, the Pharisees were filled with rage over what they deemed a violation of the Sabbath law ahd therefore plotted to kill Jesus.
{Mt 15:3-11;Mr 7:6-15;Lu 11:39-44) (Mt 12:9-15;Mr 3:1-6:Lu 6:7-11;14:1-6)
The mob that later seized Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane included Pharisees, they were among those who requested that Pilate kill Jesus.
It should be mentioned that not all Pharisees opposed Jesus, some, for example Gamaliel counseled against interfering with the work of the Christians, and some even became Christians as did the Pharisee Saul (Paul) of Tarsus.

cheers.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think Christians come across now as being more predatory than charitable.

Depends on the Christian.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But you said that there are actual accounts that Jesus wasn't crucified... or wasn't that what you were trying to say?

I was wondering the same.
Closest I've ever seen were some arguments around the likelihood and exact methods of crucifiction used in this time period.

 

[Sand Dancer]

One way to look at it: if one person is expressing their faith through their entire life and they work as, say, a plumber or a nurse, they'd get paid for the work they do in their "ministry." Why shouldn't someone who works on church business full-time also get paid for their ministry?

Also, in practical terms, most churches' parishoners will have needs and demands to be satisfied in the middle of the day when most people are working. If your church doesn't have any paid staff, then either:

- those needs are going to go unmet, or
- you're going to need "unpaid clergy" with flexible schedules (e.g. retired folks or flexible self-employed people) to fill those roles. These people might be in short supply.

To be fair, the LDS speakers are not pastors, they are just people with a desire to speak about religious issues.

 

[oldbadger]

Hello.
When Jesus exposed their wrong reasoning and showed them to be violators God's law on account of their adherence to man-made traditions, the Pharisees were filled with rage over what they deemed a violation of the Sabbath law ahd therefore plotted to kill Jesus.
{Mt 15:3-11;Mr 7:6-15;Lu 11:39-44) (Mt 12:9-15;Mr 3:1-6:Lu 6:7-11;14:1-6)
The mob that later seized Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane included Pharisees, they were among those who requested that Pilate kill Jesus.

Oh...... the Pharisees?
Oh well, so the Sadducees, The Levite Guards and Temple Priests, these folks were not involved.
...........

Why do you constantly refer to the Pharisees, who were not all Levites? It was the Temple Leaders, mostly, and their officers.....

EDIT: I've just noticed that your OP did mention all the above............

It should be mentioned that not all Pharisees opposed Jesus, some, for example Gamaliel counseled against interfering with the work of the Christians, and some even became Christians as did the Pharisee Saul (Paul) of Tarsus.

Jesus the man was gone by then.
This was about Christianity, not Jesus.

cheers.

 

[oldbadger]

My question is this:

Has today's clergy class absolved themselves from the crimes of their predecessors, or have they continued their iniquity albeit in a more covert manner, thus deserving Christs accusation at Jo 8:44 ?

Many Church Leaders continue to cause disharmony because they point to other churches, other Christians, other religions, indeed any who don't follow them, and make accusations about them all.

Do the clergy rightfully wear their high sounding titles due to their piety, great righteousness and God's approval, or rather have today's clergy exalted themselves, as the clergy of Jesus days have done ?

I onve visited the home of a very senior leader in the Church of England. The Wealth! A gun cabinet with about three pairs of game guns in it, any of which could buy a very expensive car.......... oozing in money.

Now what did Jesus say about 'oozing in money?'

God..... or Mammon.

 

[Neuropteron]

I am going to leave a short response. One statement and a few questions.

The Christian Church, historically even after Constantine (who only legalized the religion and made it acceptable, he may have been in error and a pagan himself, but individual Bishops at the time were already split and arguing about the nature of Christ, and also fairly independent) has always been persecuted by Kings and political powers outside of it. Even during the High Middle Ages, one could look at all corruption as that of the world (think of the parables of the weeds strangling out seed for the harvest) and not of the unity of the Christian faithful. God chooses some of us for certain purposes, and there are just as many good clergy-- what then was the goal of apostles? Why was Paul in a position of leadership: to prevent the myriad of errors and disunity seen throughout his letters.

What about the role of the Prophets and advisors of the Old Testament?

What about all the good that has come about out of structure? The Catholic church being one of the largest non-governmental charitable organizations?

Please show me one "pagan" idea fused into Christianity post-Constantine, that was not already present in theological discussion prior to being the State religion.

What do you believe Christ means when he gives certain commands and powers to the Apostles? Again, why are they distinct and important persons mentioned in the Gospels and why are they given certain duties over the myriad of other disciples following Jesus at the time? What about the tongues of fire? What about the missions bestowed upon Paul?

Looking at the history of the United States, as well as modern Protestant nations ( now majority atheist or irreligious, yet Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church) you will also see that the Catholic church and faithful clergymen have also been horribly persecuted. Horribly persecuted at the hands of modern political and religious powers to this very day.

As can be seen in the entirety of the second half of the New Testament. Adversity springs up constantly from disunity in doctrine, and even morality. Authority is very risky, but it can also save the even worse effects of disunity and aggression.

Hello,

Thank you for your response, you asked:
"Why was Paul in a position of leadership"

Paul was never appointed "leader" but rather an Apostle to the nations (non-jews). His only authority was to spread the Gospel of the good news to the Gentiles.(Apostle means "send forth")
___________________________________________

"and there are just as many good clergy".
"The Catholic church being one of the largest non-governmental charitable organizations"

Regarding being good and charitable is not the issue, albeit it being commendable. To use a hyperbole even Hitler has done good to someone. The measure of a persons or institution's godliness is not the works he has done, but the obedience he displays toward God's law(Mt 7:21).
In this instance simply belonging to a "clergy" class and having high sounding titles is breaking Jesus commandment that there should exist no class distinction between Christians(Mt 23:9). Additionally a person following in the footstep of Christ and the Apostles would never be teach the Gospel for financial or positional gain. (Act 20:33,34).
___________________________________________

"Please show me one "pagan" idea fused into Christianity post-Constantine, that was not already present in theological discussion prior to being the State religion"

Short list of unscriptural teaching: Hellfire, Athanasian Creed, Immortal soul, forbidding some to marry, religious fasting, removing Jehovah's name, Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, Purgatory, Mariolatry,.... "
____________________________________________

"why are they given certain duties over the myriad of other disciples following Jesus"

The fact that some are given certain priviledges is simply common sense, this by itself does not presume difference of worth. For instance only women have the priviledge of bearing children, as in this instance a privilege often involves sacrifice and hard work not superiority.
____________________________________________

"the Catholic church and faithful clergymen have also been horribly persecuted. Horribly persecuted at the hands of modern political and religious powers to this very day."

The Catholic church have had conflicts with some other religion. However such conflicts are not to be confused with persecution. I have never heard of any persecution aimed at the Catholic church.
____________________________________________

"Adversity springs up constantly from disunity in doctrine, and even morality."

That is true, but not surprising since this disunity is predominant in the church itself, I put forward that it's because the church has only its tradition has a source of authority instead of the Holy scriptures.


I hope I have caused no offence by answering as best I could.

Be well.

 

[Neuropteron]

It's not at all clear from your post what you mean by a "real" Christian. Isn't a real Christian someone who accepts Jesus as his or her savior? What test are you using to determine whether a Christian is a "real" Christian or not?

I ask again ─ what test will tell us whether someone's a "true Christian" or not, since your question can't be answered without knowing that.

Hi,
Mt 7:21 "Not everyone saying to me, "ord,Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Fater..." :21...Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness"
Mt 7:20 "Really then, by their fruit you will recognize them"

Cheers

 

[blü 2]

Hi,
Mt 7:21 "Not everyone saying to me, "ord,Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Fater..." :21...Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness"
Mt 7:20 "Really then, by their fruit you will recognize them"

Cheers

Thanks.

What is the will of God the Father, exactly?

For example, who does [he] want America's Christians to vote for, and how can anyone tell?

And is [he] still hot on the death penalty, or has [he] had a change of mind?

 

[Neuropteron]

What is the will of God the Father, exactly?

Hi,

(Byington bible)
Micah 6"8 "He has told you what doth Jehovah require of thee..."
"Mt4:4 "...Not on bread alone shall man live, but upon every word that comes out of God's mouth"

Those that read the bible know exactly what God's will is.

Cheers.

 

[blü 2]

Hi,

(Byington bible)
Micah 6"8 "He has told you what doth Jehovah require of thee..."
"Mt4:4 "...Not on bread alone shall man live, but upon every word that comes out of God's mouth"

Those that read the bible know exactly what God's will is.

You read the bible.

So why did you post the statement above without also answering my questions?

Forgive me if I suspect it's because we both know there's either no way to determine what God wants, or as many ways as there are people claiming to know ─ making the idea essentially meaningless, no?

 

[Neuropteron]

So why did you post the statement above without also answering my questions?

Hi,
The answer was contained in the scriptures I quoted, there is no need for me to add to it, if you do not believe Jesus, why would you believe me.

Cheers

 

[blü 2]

Hi,
The answer was contained in the scriptures I quoted, there is no need for me to add to it, if you do not believe Jesus, why would you believe me.

So you freely admit that you have no idea what God wants regarding the US elections or the death penalty.

Okay, we agree your 'test' doesn't even work for you, is meaningless.