Who Are You?

[shivsomashekhar]

I asked, “Who are you?”

I know who I am.

I am @shivsomashekhar and I have no doubt about who I am or what I am.

Someday, if I wake up with memory loss and a bag containing multiple passports - all with my picture, but different names, then I would have to ask the question.

 

[stvdv]

Who is asking the question "Who am I?"

Don't ask me

Why would you ask yourself who you are?

Don't ask me

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I continues through all changes that the I can observe. So why do you say that I is all those changeable things/aspects?

Do you know the I that you say that I will die? What evidence you have that the I will vanish? I agree that the I’s association with things will finish, as it happens in sleep also. How do you know that the I will vanish?

Because that "I" has already vanished, several times. Every time I've had surgery under a general anaesthetic, "I" was not there. That time is utterly missing from my life experiences, and I know nothing about what happened during those hours other than what I can conjecture from understanding what the surgery was, what the doctors and nurses might have been doing, and so on. But from the first 3 seconds after the Propofol was injected, until the moment I fuzzily noticed the pain and confusion of waking up...there was utterly nothing.

I find no reason to suppose that death, which is so very much more destructive to the brain than Propofol, should also be so much less complete in its dissolution of the experience that constitutes "I."

 

[stvdv]

Because that "I" has already vanished, several times

Vanish = disappear suddenly and completely

Did that "I" return?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Vanish = disappear suddenly and completely

Did that "I" return?

Yes, when the cause of the disappearance (the suppression of some of the functions of my brain) was removed.

It's quite hard to see, given that, how the rapidly decomposing brain of someone who has died will stop decomposing and return to its former robust self. At least, I've never seen it happen.

 

[stvdv]

Every time I've had surgery under a general anaesthetic, "I" was not there

How you know?
"Who is the one knowing" that "I" was not there?

 

[stvdv]

Every time I've had surgery under a general anaesthetic, "I" was not there

Thanks for sharing.
Anaesthetic (drugs) seems to be a very intriguing experience reading your experiences (not the reason why it is needed though).
"I" don't pray for operations, but anaesthetic "I" would not mind to experience.

 

[Cooky]

That leads to the big question no one can seem to answer, are humans just like other animals or are we a special type of creature who are different from other creatures? That question is so annoying since I see evidence in favour and against both ideas and it doesn't seem like there's a definitive answer either way.

I love it when questions come to a circular end. That must mean something.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How you know?
"Who is the one knowing" that "I" was not there?

That, my friend, is the very most precise question in this context. The context of the thread is "who are you" (which of course when you and I read it we convert to "who am I")?

The only possible answer, in my very personal opinion, is that I am the sum of all of the experiences that this physical body has had, including the experience of just being this physical body.

I am aware that many religious believers think that this is not so...that there is "something else," or "something more than the physical self," but I have never been able to find it. And more to the point, that's what my story of general anaesthetic was about...that it says when you can shut down the knowing, experiencing part, then this "self" is suddenly non-existent. Nobody religious has ever explained to me why that should be so when my brain is artificially shut down, but will not be so when my brain is in reality shut down, and permanently. As I understand it, it's a question that they would rather not have to deal with, for some reason or other.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

How you know?
"Who is the one knowing" that "I" was not there?

Exactly. I cannot be a witness to a moment when I do not exist.

Ergo, there is no moment when I do not exist. Any such moment (where I do not exist) - past, present, future - is logically deduced.

And this is what is meant by Upanishadic immortality. It is the understanding that time is a mental construct and there is no such thing as non-existence.

 

[Neutral Name]

In Vedanta, or more specifically jnana yoga and Advaita Vedanta, there is a process called neti neti which is a Sanskrit term meaning 'not this, not this.' It is an analysis of what one truly is through the process of negation. In essence, anything one can observe is not who they are in their true nature. I can observe my breathing, therefore I am not my breathing. I can observe my thoughts, therefore I am not my thoughts. I can observe my body, therefore I am not my body. And so on.

In your simplest, most basic, and truest form, who are you?

I am the spirit inside of me, not the flesh being of this world.

 

[atanu]

Because that "I" has already vanished, several times. Every time I've had surgery under a general anaesthetic, "I" was not there. That time is utterly missing from my life experiences, and I know nothing about what happened during those hours other than what I can conjecture from understanding what the surgery was, what the doctors and nurses might have been doing, and so on. But from the first 3 seconds after the Propofol was injected, until the moment I fuzzily noticed the pain and confusion of waking up...there was utterly nothing.

I find no reason to suppose that death, which is so very much more destructive to the brain than Propofol, should also be so much less complete in its dissolution of the experience that constitutes "I."

There is a confusion my friend. The examples you provided actually prove that cognition of ‘i’ and actual ‘i’ are not the same thing.

Please ponder. Is non cognition of “i’ by mind-senses equal to absence of “i”?

You gave many examples but you missed the example of deep sleep — the common universal experience. In deep sleep, the ‘i’ and a corresponding world are not cognised. But the ‘i’ persists in the non cognition interval and comes up in dream and waking states.

The point is that non cognition of ‘i’ is not equal to its absence.

 

[atanu]

How is something known without being observed? This is where I am stuck, and why my answer to "Who am I?" is "unknown". As I observe it, it is excluded from neti-neti? All that is left is the question. All that is left is "unknown".

Am I missing something(s)?

Only pure awareness is left. And I will not prefer to call it ‘unknown’.

On stripping away all objects of mind-senses as not I, the one who is enquiring cannot be removed. The seer, seeing, and the seen remain non dual. Sage Ramana explains it as loss of ‘I am this‘ notion but rise of ‘I-I’ awareness, devoid of names-forms.

 

[stvdv]

And more to the point, that's what my story of general anaesthetic was about...that it says when you can shut down the knowing, experiencing part, then this "self" is suddenly non-existent

To this question of "Who am I":
Do you imply that Saints/Sages who meditated for decades came to the wrong conclusion declaring "I am THAT" in a state of heightened conscious?
Whereas the Alcoholic, by taking a bottle of rum, came to the right conclusion, just in 1 night, declaring "I am RUM" in a state of delirium?

Of course I prefer my own experience, but if I have to choose between "words of a Saint/Sage" or "words of someone who was knocked out after taking a drug", normally I would choose for "words of the Saint" ... of course checking always, using my own discrimination and common sense.

"I am THAT" I wrote, as a logical conclusion that some believe "You are or become what you think/meditate on"
"I am RUM" I wrote, as a logical conclusion that some believe "You are or become what you eat/drink"

Spoiler: I do not claim that one could NOT be in a "heightened conscious" state while drinking 1 bottle of rum

but I do think you need to be such a Saint or Sage to achieve this; not just only being any regular alcoholic (or any other addict ... I have food addiction; I eat things which are known as not healthy - excess chocolate sometimes ... I see myself not any better than the alcohol addict ... addiction is what need to be overcome, this means healing the underlying emotions causing the addiction).

Spoiler: Google defines alcohol delirium (so drug related, not God related) as follows:

A delirium, is a psychiatric disorder that is disturbed by cognitive and perception functions. A delirium is the result of cerebral dysfunction. In the DSM-IV a distinction is made between different types of delirium based on the cause. For example, the delirium exists due to alcohol intoxication and the delirium due to alcohol withdrawal.

 

[stvdv]

Nobody religious has ever explained to me why that should be so when my brain is artificially shut down, but will not be so when my brain is in reality shut down, and permanently. As I understand it, it's a question that they would rather not have to deal with, for some reason or other.

The first part is easy. All on the spiritual path know (or come to know) that "you have to do the time yourself" ... others can not do it for you.

As to the second part, speaking for myself ... not true. I love to try things out, to experience myself. Death intrigued me at age 10 already

 

[Jos]

I love it when questions come to a circular end. That must mean something.

What is that something?

 

[stvdv]

Nobody religious has ever explained to me why that should be so when my brain is artificially shut down, but will not be so when my brain is in reality shut down, and permanently.

I have been given drugs (in hospital before operation; long time ago). This is a state of unconscious ... I find it totally different from the meditative state of heightened conscious. Drugged is "without awareness" whereas meditation is "with awareness".

So it's quite simple to explain. When you are given drugs you are "unconscious". And as the word says you are "not conscious" of the operation (at least that is the plan ... so you don't feel the pain). You are still there (because you are unconscious you wrongly think you are not there or you left), which is not true and proven when the drugs wears out and you are still there.

When you meditate you come in a state of heightened conscious, this is totally different. Fully aware of everything that is happening, you can detach yourself from the body, and in that way you do not feel the pain when doctors operate.

So "not feeling the pain" is the same in both scenarios. Even "the real you" is the same in both scenarios. The difference lies in awareness.
Hence my example: about "drinking a bottle of RUM" to not feel pain, can't be compared with "heightened meditative state" to not feel pain.

 

[stvdv]

Nobody religious has ever explained to me why that should be so when my brain is artificially shut down, but will not be so when my brain is in reality shut down, and permanently. As I understand it, it's a question that they would rather not have to deal with, for some reason or other.

As I have explained, I researched and practiced both scenarios. So you need not tell me "it's a question that you would rather not have to deal with, for some reason or other". Of course you are free to do so, and I take it positive as a good reminder not to be lazy. But have you ever practiced spiritual disciplines like fasting, pure diet, celibacy (ceiling on desires etc) and concentration/contemplation/meditation (not for just a few minutes, but for like 10 years)? If not, then maybe your quote in red is not about me or religious people who "rather not have to deal with", but it's more about yourself "rather not have to deal with" spiritual disciplines.

Are you avoiding to deal with spiritual practices for some reason or other? I don't say you need or should (or not). Maybe if you practice for 1 day you are enlightened (this happens sometimes). But if you have been avoiding then IMO you should not try to fill in your blanks superimposed on religious people as if they are the one's having problems (or avoiding their things)

And again ... worldly problems mostly can be solved by the mind. But spiritual problems mostly get solved by "no mind". Keys: meditation, awareness. Hence you should understand "nobody has ever explained spiritual things to you", because they have to be experienced, not explained, to really know

 

[atanu]

I found the video outstanding.