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Who are you to question God? really...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Lady B, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. Lady B

    Lady B noob

    Messages:
    1,365
    You know I just have to wonder after seeing countless threads, one after another questioning God, what would you have done different? Seriously, you who constantly condemn God's judgments, who are you really? Are you so big you can go against God himself? If you stood in his presence today would you ask him these very questions you post here?

    Let me ask you,have you ever been to court? And had a judge before you? if not just imagine... Sure your brave at first and have your attorney beside you, speaking boldly on your behalf and you have all hope he will do what you have paid him to do...but What happens when it is left to the judge? Final day of sentencing, do you scream out what an unfair system we have? Do you mock the judge? Tell him he is nothing? And has no power over you? Or do you my dear friend,humbly go before him with fear and trembling and beg for his mercy..... Have you ever felt that trembling fear? Like, whoa, he could do anything to me and I have no defense really against him?

    Have you ever been in front of your president? Or leader? All these things you scream about in facebook or social forums, would you really say in front of a powerful being? Would you say the same things you say in your mothers basement in your underwear,hiding behind a screen and keyboard to an authoritative figure? Do you ever feel underdressed in front of respected persons or maybe that your home isn't clean enough for guests? Have you ever even imagined yourself dumbstruck, in awe? In perfect submission ? Knowing your life depends on what you say right now?

    You all amaze me with your fearlessness, your bravery, How easy it is for you to question God, how easy it is for you to say horrid things against his character, to question his judgment, to deem him unfit, to call him narcissistic, to say he is evil to send anyone to hell, to say he designed men to fail and so it is his fault we do so. Who are you speaking this to ? To whom are you so boldly questioning? Who are you so arrogant towards? Against who? Me? Religious entities? Fellow Rf posters? door to door evangelists? Maybe even world wide web users? so brave you are....

    I will ask you, what gives you this boldness? Who is behind you now? Who has your back? Fellow atheists? agnostics? Science? your meditations? What are you trusting in really? I will tell you, your trusting in men, your trusting in created minds and not the very creator! the one you will one day stand before and your tongue will not even wag, your voice will be gone, you who have made your own God or seen yourselves as your own God, and hey, as Gods tell me what did you create? while you have been in control of your own destiny, what have you really found? how have you furthered your own species? I tell you one day you will see all your knowledge, your wisdom and your imaginings as dust. DUST ! Nothing... All your science and your ideas and your questions and your denials are nothing, you will be speechless and you will have no representative beside you, none will speak for you, or give your qualifications, none will submit your great philosophical resume..You will answer to one God, one Holy God , one creator, one judge, He will ask of you...
    " what did you do with this life I gave you?"
    don't even think what you will say, you will get no say, you will get no argument, there is no debate my friend....

    I have heard many rebuttals already, trust me what you can say is not new to me, nor to God.Here they are....If you are wrong, so what..You were deceived...If You are wrong well it is not your fault, God wasn't clear.....If You are wrong well so how can God punish what he designed from the beginning? so what? You die and cease to exist, from dust you came to dust you go.there is nothing beyond so why should you care..you Will wish it so, but it is not the truth, death is not your end, you will face that Holy God whether you choose in this life to acknowledge him or not, you will face him and you will bow before him and you will not speak a word........

    Do I wish this for you? Do I wish one day you will see what we have told you and you will be sorry and we will gloat? and say "neener neener,I told ya so"? No my friend I do not wish the wrath of God on anyone, I beg you to show respect, I beg you to question rightously, I beg you to stop this slander and seek your answers meekly, as If you need answers and not as you do now, allready knowing all. I wish you would stop questioning God as if he is your mailman, as if he is your buddy who let you down as if he was the waitress who got your order wrong....

    Think about it my friend, who are you exactly? How is it that you can be so arrogant? So self worthy to say this God of Abraham is so unfair, so unjust, so evil minded? I fear for your attempt at bravery within your peers, stand alone and put yourself standing before this God you deny you know, Yes you know him, you deceive yourself well enough to say you don't know him, but He has written himself on every heart, most of you have studied his word to use it against his own...You know him....:facepalm:
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
    FearGod, Pegg and Quintessence like this.
  2. Draka

    Draka Cylon Skin Job

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    Religion:
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    You do realize, don't you, that people are questioning other men's accounting of what is "god"? That people question and judge a theory? An idea? Everyone has a right to question a story told by another, a legend, a theory, an idea. Who is someone to question? ... A rational human being...that's who.
     
    Falvlun likes this.
  3. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie Staff Member

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    Lady B,
    To be honest, one would have to believe in the Christian God for your rant to apply to them.
    Those who "hate" or "blame" the Christian God for anything are not atheists or agnostics. At the least, they are anti-theists, at the most, angry theists.
     
  4. Lady B

    Lady B noob

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    1,365
    Questioning God and genuinly seeking truth is not the problem, arrogant blaspheme is. The very audacity to say God is less than Holy and perfect even If we do not understand, this is the horror I see all day here. It is not a rant, it is a pleading, please people show some respect, God is not your neighbor who built his fence on your lot ! You cannot sue God, you cannot take him to court! you will however be in his court one day.
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Superstylin' Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
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    I could turn this attitude around on you: who are you to elevate human opinions to the status of unassailable pronouncements of God?

    Anything you can say about God has been the product of human thought; when someone responds to some religious claim with something like "...but a good God wouldn't do 'X'", why are you taking this as an affront to God and not as a critique of the human reasoning that led to the conclusion that God does do 'X'?

    IMO, when you say "who are you to question God?" this is directly interchangeable with "who are you to question my beliefs about God?" Hopefully you can see how this could be interpreted as arrogance on your part.

    Some maybe, though I think we do have the ability to entertain the idea of different god-beliefs to consider their implications even if we don't believe them ourselves.
     
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  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Superstylin' Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
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    Frankly, if you want your god-claims to be respected, then demonstrate why they deserve respect. If people aren't respecting your beliefs as much as you'd like, then figure out some more compelling arguments for why they should.
     
  7. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie Staff Member

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    20,446
    Perhaps. I can look at the concept of the Abrahamic god and find fault, but I could not "blame" him or "hate" him. But I can see the argument of "If your God..., then..." among non-believers.

    And as for recent events, I find the reaction of many so-called Christian spokesmen to be much more harmful to Christian witness than the events themselves.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Superstylin' Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
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    I could understand "hating" the Abrahamic God in the same sense that a person "hates" Darth Vader while still believing him to be fictional.

    I think you're probably right. When a person who preaches a religion of love and peace rejects those principles in his arguments, this sets off my hypocrisy alarm big time.
     
  9. Lady B

    Lady B noob

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    1,365
    I believe every man knows there is a God, whether you choose to acknowledge his existance or not, you do know. maybe You don't know him well, but you do know he exists . I do not care to argue your denials, I care to encourage you all to have some respect, show some submissiveness, did you create yourself? do you have all the answers really? is no higher being held in great esteem to you? why do you come now to defend yourself against what you don't know for sure? seek it people, seek it, do not condemn yourselves before you do,Do not curse the very cause of your existance, have some Awe...I promise you, I swear If you really need answers ,before you leave this life, God will give you some security, He has promised .If you allready know all and you have peace, fine..just nothig I can say to you and I am truly sorry.

    But let me ask you please, you who label themselves Godless, why are you here? really why are you here? why are you questioning creation, serpents,hell, angels, laws and prophets? why do you care? are you here to entertain us all in your master debating skills or how well you can research wilkipedia? are you just amazed at these idiots who follow abrahamic traditions and bow before a unworthy God?

    Look I respect evryone will have his own mind, follow his own desires, what I cannot respect is disrespect. I have seen enough, I had enough.
     
  10. Draka

    Draka Cylon Skin Job

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    What you see as blasphemy many others just see as flat out reality/truth. Why should someone view or state your particular god as being holy if they don't believe it to be so? Why shouldn't a person be allowed to have the opinion that your god is a cruel god if that is how they read the mythology to portray him? Just because you personally hold something to be holy and view certain statements to be blasphemous it doesn't make it really so in reality, just for you and others who believe like you.
     
    Father Heathen likes this.
  11. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Remember, there are forums on the web that will not question God.
    However, I recall an amazement at the non-judgmental reactions presented here that may not be present among those other forums.:shrug:
     
  12. Lady B

    Lady B noob

    Messages:
    1,365
    yes sure there are, and I could go and be comfy and never be questioned. this is not my issue friends. I love genuine concerns, I love debating, I certainly do not expect that everyone believe as I do, you know good and well I am not saying any such thing. I am asking you, really I am pleading with you, stop this arrogance, stop talking to my God His God our God as if he is beneath you. as if you are the supreme being here because you took some philosophy courses and you have every right to talk down to God himself. no you don't my friend, you just don't.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Superstylin' Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
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    No, that's not true. I really don't believe that God exists. Not at all.

    I think that your argument to the contrary is part of a rationalization you're using: it's unfair to punish someone for something they did unwittingly. You think your God is fair, so you have assumed that your God must give all people a fair chance. If we go to Hell, it must be our fault somehow, because a good God would never send someone to Hell who didn't deserve it... right?

    You didn't create me. IMO, your demands here amount to asking me to be submissive to you, not to any god. And I don't think you're any better a source of answers than I am.

    There are people I admire, but I reject "higher" and "lower" (in the sense you're using them here) as invalid concepts. There's no "higher", no "lower", just different.

    I think you misunderstand my reasons for engaging with you. I'm not trying to "defend myself". I see you as someone who has come to incorrect conclusions based on bad premises, and because I care about you and the effects you have on others, I want to talk about them with you and hopefully show you how they're wrong.

    ... while still leaving open the possibility that I'm the one who's mistaken and you'll show me how I went wrong... but so far, you aren't making any progress on that front.

    I don't think I am. In fact, I see what you're doing as a sort of condemnation of yourself. If your trust in an unseen afterlife proves to be misplaced, don't you think that much of your life would have been wasted?

    I have plenty of awe... just not for the things that you want me to have awe in. But again: if you want me to be awestruck by your god, give me a reason to do it. Don't just complain about the fact that I don't; explain why I should. If it's really that important to you, then do your best to make a case.

    Why are you telling us what to do? I thought you considered yourself a Calvinist; isn't whether or not we believe and whether or not we are saved entirely up to God? Why are you here trying to convince us and not praying to God for our salvation? Going by your theology, isn't this thread a waste of your time?

    I wouldn't put it that way, but I am trying to come to terms with what I see as a strange dichotomy: many people who I see as generally intelligent and rational adhere to beliefs that I can't see any rational reason at all to accept. I want to know why. Religion is a fascinating phenomenon.

    And as for why I came to this site, I've gone through this before. I had two main reasons:

    - I made a promise to my grandmother when she was on her deathbed that I would seriously consider raising my children in a church. As part of honouring this promise to her, I wanted to explore my own beliefs and wound up here.

    - my ex was Catholic, and was very distressed at the prospect of me going to Hell. I didn't like to see my wife cry, so I tried my best to find a way to make her happy while still preserving my intellectual integrity. This meant trying my damnedest to find a way to accept the Catholic faith and be baptized. I never did find a way.

    Exactly what would you have people do?

    Take someone like me: someone who honestly sees no reasonable basis for your religion or your beliefs about God. What do you think I should be doing that I'm not doing already? What do you think I shouldn't do that I'm doing now? Please be specific.

    ... and seeing how you claim to value respect so much, once you describe what you want me to do, please tell me how imposing it on me is in accordance with respect for me.
     
  14. Lady B

    Lady B noob

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    1,365
    I understand what you are saying however I do not accept anyone can say God is cruel so therefore there is no God and if he does exist, well what good is he to be worshipped and respected. Who are we to judge God as cruel? From our own understanding? From our view of fairness? Because Tommy gets the best toys and betty plays with sticks philosophy? From where do we get the arrogance to judge God? From where do we see our minds so high in intellect to surmise God's decisions? I can handle questioning scripture, I can.I can even question my own at times, we are told to study to show ourselves approved, to be sure in our salvation, God does not ask we go as blind idiots.what I cannot handle is men's arrogance , I just can't.:(
     
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Superstylin' Staff Member Premium Member

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    It's a fundamental tenet of your own religion that we can distinguish right from wrong. Whether you see Adam, Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as literal or symbolic, the whole reason for the necessity of Christ's sacrifice is that knowledge of good and evil was bestowed on humanity.

    If we cannot recognize cruelty for what it is, then Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary.
     
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  16. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli Premium Member

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    What about your own arrogance?
     
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  17. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur Staff Member Premium Member

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    Everything we know about your God comes from your scripture, no? Therefore, any time we question your God, we are just questioning your scripture, or your interpretation of it, or our interpretation of it. Like Draka said, we aren't condemning or confronting God so much as we are questioning other humans' conceptions of God. Many of us truly don't believe that any such Being exists. But you do, and your concepts do.


    Besides that, just listen to the almost Penguin. He knows what he's talking about.
     
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  18. Lady B

    Lady B noob

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    1,365
    Is that how you see me? As pushing my beliefs on you? If you do then you are wrong, I am not doing this in intent or in delivery. Why? Do you feel guilty? Perhaps it is not me who is bringing your heart to my thread....anyway You are wrong about Calvinist and that we have no need to share our beliefs, we do, we do not know who is the elect and God uses his word to bring his people to him. At any rate I am not on this mission or I would have filled this thread with scripture, I did not because this is my plea, and my plea is not for converts, it is for respect for My God.

    Maybe just maybe if one person can change his mind about how he approaches a holy God, or God's people. I have succeeded in my post. Maybe if one person out there finds reverence in his creator, then my post is worth my time . I do not expect you to thank me, I do not expect frubles or my name to be remembered. I care less how you even think of me after today. What I care about is each of us to seriously consider our end.

    This is perhaps a young crowd, you have a long life, no worries, your good to your neighbors, give to the poor, responsible at work, highly educated, great scientific minds, you pretty much have no fear.....But What happens when you die my friend or If the Lord comes tomorrow and your earthly life is done. When you fall on your knees in front of a Holy God, your maker, and he knows you well....and He remember all the hatred you had for him, all the vile horrible things you said and the followers you had behind you....what Then? You will plea you didn't know?

    Look 9-10ths_Penguin, I am not trying to win your soul, I am showing you and others a concern I have. I am concerned with what I see here, not in the questions, not in the seeking not in the debating. In the real lack of respect and honor God does deserve. Your grandmother was concerned for you, for good reason, she knew where she was going and she wanted you to be with her and your children, this is not wrong, this is not selfish or arrogant and I admire you for seeking. Honestly you are not whom I intended to reach with my post, But if it causes you to think some, It can't be bad. I must get sleep now, but I will be here tommorow....nite all
     
  19. Lady B

    Lady B noob

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    1,365
    If I come across to you as arrogant then for that I am sorry and you truly have missed my plea.:facepalm:
     
  20. Tristesse

    Tristesse New Member

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    3,341
    The god as depicted in the bible is not deserving of respect. And your objection to people questioning god is absurd, especially when you take into consideration that the people your referring to, for the most part, don't believe this god exists. What they're actually questioning is the morality of the bronze and iron age individuals who wrote the bible. Because on a frequent bases the morality found in the bible is lauded as a good moral guide to live your life by, when in reality it is anything but that.
     
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