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Featured Who are the real Children of Israel?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Tazarah, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    OK. I browsed the whole thread, something I don't usually do.

    Post #119 seems to show Jews being shipped to Egypt and not even being able to be bought as slaves.

    If Deuteronomy 28-30 is read by either Jews or by non-Jews who think they are Jews, then they believe in it and hold themselves accountable.

    Israel may not be where the Jews have been gathered, but if it is not it is where they probably want to be gathered.

    But anyway my main point is these are just conditionals. You might even say it is automatic; if you break those commandments you hurt yourself and if you keep those commandments you bless yourself. It is just poetry but the results of behavior show how a group or individual is likely to survive. I say likely; they are not definitely going to be judged the way those chapters state; it is just a general principle that a smart Bible writer wrote to try to help his race.
     
  2. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Egypt refers to bondage (Deuteronomy 5:6, Exodus 20:2) and when it says so man shall buy you it means no man shall redeem/save you.

    The curses also say that the Israelites would he oppressed and crushed forever and would not prosper in their ways (Deuteronomy 28:29, Deuteronomy 28:33). So are you calling God a liar?

    If you are familiar with the bible, the scriptures make it clear that the Israelites went into captivity each time they disobeyed God and his commandments. It also makes it clear that the Israelites went into captivity and will be in captivity until the second coming (Luke 21:24).

    Negroes are the only people who have been led captive into all nations, on ships, with yokes of iron upon their necks (Deuteronomy 28:48).

    If you don’t understand the bible or bible prophecy then it is understandable why you are coming up with your own conclusions as to what the scriptures mean but the scriptures describe everything down to the last detail in regard to who the true jews are and what would happen to them.
     
  3. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I can go with different interpretations, including this one here.
    I'm pretty sure it offers an olive branch in Deuteronomy 29 so that they can get redeemed too.
    That's fine... I don't really know the details.
    Again, I don't really know the details... I'm just saying these are conditionals.
    But I think I'm pretty familiar with Deuteronomy 28-30. It gives them a way out if they are righteous right?
     
  4. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but that has not happened yet... the Israelites are still scattered. Luke 21:24 says that the holy land will be inhabited by gentiles until the times of the gentiles comes to an end.

    The times of the gentiles end when Christ returns and sets up his millenial kingdom — when Christ returns he will gather the Israelites from everywhere they are scattered and place them back into their land.

    None of that has happened yet. That is why the curses say that they will be upon them for ever.

    Forever = until Christ returns.
     
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  5. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Thank you, this is helpful and I am inclined to agree. I just don't think they were judged already in Deuteronomy 28... they had to sin or whatever first, and then when they did they were cursed until as you say Christ would return. Then again I have a tough time believing in free will so maybe they were pre-destined to fail and for all I know it is in those chapters.

    We don't have any beef now right?
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Sure there is. A claim that the KJV is "nearest to the original Torah" is funny and wrong for a few reasons: the errors are rampant (some, I have shown in this thread already), the translations are inconsistent and agendized, and the translation is unnecessary to those who actually study the Hebrew text. Then add in the claim that "it is a preferred translation" when no one in any real world circle I have frequented (religious and scholarly) has ever preferred it, and you have mistaken claims.
     
  7. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I like Hirsch. I have his Pentateuch and should read more of it some day. I used to read the Torah in Hebrew with the help of bible.ort.org .
     
    #267 robocop (actually), Oct 2, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  8. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    You know how to shapeshift?
     
  9. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Lol it depends on which kind of dark arts you are talking about. But now, I am born again
     
  10. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    No beef at all! Of course not
     
  11. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Do you consider yourself to be a black Hebrew Israelite?
     
  12. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    I am a Hebrew Israelite.

    Calling a black person a black hebrew israelite would be like calling a firetruck a red firetruck.

    It is a fact that the hebrews of the bible were people of color, and regardless of what I identify as the facts in and out of the bible and from history will never change.
     
  13. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Okay, but it appears that the Hebrew Israelite movement, composed of people of color, is a reversal of the British Israelism or Christian Identity movement, composed of whites, which taught that the lost tribes of Israel were the European Anglo Saxons. Both racist, unbiblical black and white supremacist groups who make the same claim that the Jews in Israel are not the real Jews/Israelites.


    On the other hand the biblical scriptures show that God preserves the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews throughout history and persecution, gathering them a second time by His hand and restoring them to the land of Israel in unbelief, as a sign in of last days. (Ezekiel 36)

    "Persecution – Deuteronomy 28
    Exactly as Moses predicted in Deuteronomy 28, the Jewish people have suffered greatly, and been persecuted wherever they have gone. They have been repeatedly conquered by various empires and regimes, and while in exile they have suffered numerous violent persecutions. Thousands were slaughtered in the Crusades and millions in the Holocaust. They suffered the evils of the Inquisition and the repeated trauma of being forcibly expelled from country after country. The persecution of the Jewish people has been relentless and really quite extraordinary. If you are not sure about this statement, just do a Google search, and you’ll see what I mean. Yet somehow, they are still alive to tell the tale."
    Israel Shows that the Bible is True! - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
     
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  14. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    4-6 million “jews” during the holocaust, TENS of millions of negroes during the slave trade, if not more.

    Lol...

    Slavery lasted way longer than the holocaust too. You cannot even compare the holocaust to the slavery and genocide of black people taken from Africa.

    Slavery is ALSO bible prophecy (Genesis 15:13, Luke 21:24, Acts 7:6).

    You said a lot of things in your post but none of it means anything at all without scripture.

    It’s like you ignored all of the facts and evidence from both the bible and history that I put in the OP.

    When have the “jews” in israel fulfilled any of the prophetic curses of Deuteronomy 28? Deuteronomy 28:15-68 specifically.

    “Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
    And they shall be upon thee for a SIGN and for a wonder, and upon thy seed FOR EVER.” [Deuteronomy 28:45-46]

    “And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and spoiled EVERMORE, and no man shall save thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:29]

    “The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only OPPRESSED and crushed ALWAY:” [Deuteronomy 28:33]

    “Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a YOKE OF IRON upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.” [Deuteronomy 28:48]

    ^ the curses say FOR EVER. Are they forever oppressed? Have they ever had yokes of iron put upon their necks?

    Luke 21:24 also explains what would happen to the Israelites:

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” [Luke 21:24]

    Luke 21:24 says that the israelites would fall by the sword and be led away as CAPTIVES into ALL NATIONS...

    When has that happened to the “jews” in israel? Luke 21:24 also says that Jerusalem will be inhabited by gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled (the second coming).

    If your only argument is that they “went through the holocaust” then I don’t know what to tell you. According to the bible and bible prophecy, those people are not the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    They have not fulfilled any bible prophecy.

    “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” [Revelation 2:9]
     
  15. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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  16. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Can you prove that the european “jews” are the actual people who went through all of those expulsions in history? I know what happened to the REAL jews, can you prove that the european converts in Israel are the people that these things actually happened to?

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” [Luke 21:24]

    Luke 21:24 says that the Israelites would be led away as captives into all nations. It does NOT say that they would migrate to all nations. When did this happen to the people in Israel?

    Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the people in Israel have not fulfilled any of the prophetic curses of Deuteronomy 28?
     
  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    It happened in 70 AD ...

    "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations — The fulfilment of this part of the prophecy, we have Bell., Luke 7:16, where Josephus describes the sacking of the city. “And now, rushing into every lane, they slew whomsoever they found without distinction, and burned the houses, and all the people who had fled into them. And when they entered for the sake of plunder, they found whole families of dead persons, and houses full of carcasses destroyed by famine; then they came out with their hands empty. And though they thus pitied the dead, they did not feel the same emotion for the living, but killed all they met, whereby they filled the lanes with dead bodies. The whole city ran with blood, insomuch that many things which were burning were extinguished by the blood.” Thus were the inhabitants of Jerusalem slain with the sword: thus was she laid even with the ground, and her children with her. Ibid. — “The soldiers being now wearied with killing the Jews, and yet a great number remaining alive, Cesar commanded that only the armed and they who resisted should be slain. But the soldiers killed also the old and infirm; and taking the young and strong prisoners, carried them into the women’s court in the temple. Cesar appointed one Fronto, his freedman and friend, to guard them, and to determine the fate of each. All the robbers and seditious he slew, one of them betraying another. But picking out such youths as were remarkable for stature and beauty, he reserved them for the triumph. All the rest that were above seventeen years old he sent bound into Egypt, to be employed in labour there. Titus also sent many of them into the provinces, to be slain in the theatres by beasts and the sword. And those who were under seventeen years of age were slain. And during the time Fronto judged them, one thousand died of hunger.” Chap. 17. — “Now the number of the captives that were taken during the time of the war, was ninety-seven thousand; and of all that died and were slain during the siege, was one million one hundred thousand, the most of them Jews by nation, though not inhabitants of the place; for being assembled together from all parts to the feast of unleavened bread, of a sudden they were environed with war.” Thus were the Jews led away captive into all nations.
    Luke 21:24 Commentaries: and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the people in Israel have not fulfilled any of the prophetic curses of Deuteronomy 28?[/QUOTE]

    I am not ignoring it. I just acknowledge that all the curses of Deuteronomy 28 have happened to the real children of Israel whose descendants, the Jewish people, are now in the process of being restored to the land of Israel by the God of Israel.
     
  18. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    You are ignoring it. You keep saying that the people claiming to be jews have fulfilled the prophetic curses when they have not. I know what the writings of Josephus say. But I asked you can you prove that those things actually happened to the people in Israel who are claiming to be jews? The bible says that the prophetic curses will be on the Israelites FOR EVER (Deuteronomy 28:45-46, Deuteronomy 28:29, Deuteronomy 28:33). The bible (Luke 21:24) also says that the Israelites will be led away as captives into ALL nations... when did this happen to israeli people? I’ve asked you that a few times as well but you cannot seem to provide an answer. When in documented history have the israeli people ever been led away as CAPTIVES into ALL nations?
     
  19. Anna Therese

    Anna Therese Member

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    Galations 3:29:- "And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

    The Catholic Church is Israel.
     
  20. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Replacement theology is a false doctrine.

    “Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” [Romans 9:7-8]

    Who is the promise for?

    “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;” [Romans 9:3-4]
     
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