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Who are the 'lost sheep' of Israel that Jesus spoke of?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Gnostic Seeker, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. Gnostic Seeker

    Gnostic Seeker Spiritual

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    Jesus in the gospels said that he came only to the lost sheep of Israel, opening the debate to rather Jesus only considered his teachings for Jews.

    I'd like to put forth for consideration that 'lost sheep of Israel' means the nations in light of what Israel's comission is- to be a light to the nations.

    Jesus told his disciples that he had sheep in other folds (John 10:16). I would suggest these other sheep are Gentiles. Jesus was using Israel to mean the kingdom of the elect, which the physical nation of Israel alludes to. The elect here meaning- those who know God, who are given knowledge of the mysteries.

    I'd like to know what you think Jesus meant by the lost sheep.
     
  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Lost sheep are they who had lost faith in God's spirit to lead. Israel had become a nation not listening to God Who Is True. It had become a nation like every other nation which listens to the commands of human leaders.

    1 Samuel 84 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.” 6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
     
  3. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    What real evidence do you have of this?

    It sounds rather absurd
     
  4. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    No matter what nation, what religion, etc. there is, there are those who are lost. Not lost in which they can't be found, but those who have fallen away from God.
    That is what I think he meant (In a very simplified way).
     
  5. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Peace be on all.

    With due respect:

    Quote
    "
    Jesus Christ not a Universal Teacher

    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. MATTHEW 28.19


    SENT TO HOUSE OF ISRAEL:

    And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda; for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. MATTHEW 2.6
    The Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever. LUKE 1.32/33
    Where is he that is born the King of the Jews? MATTHEW 2.2
    Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. JOHN 12.13
    Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ***'s colt. JOAN 12.15
    For this cause therefore I have called for you, to see you and, to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am hound with this chain. ACTS 28.20
    Him that God hath exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. ACTS 5.31
    0f this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a saviour. Jesus. ACTS 13.23



    CHRIST'S OWN ADMISSION:

    It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. MARK 7.27
    For salvation is of the Jews. JOHN 4.22
    Verily I say unto you, That which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye shall sit upon the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. MATTHEW 19.28
    I appoint unto ye a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. LUKE 22.29/30



    DENIED SALVATION TO NON JEWS:

    Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, least they trample them unto their feet and turn again and rend you. MATTHEW 7.6
    Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. MATTHEW 10.5/6
    Ye know how that it is unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation. ACTS 10.28



    INITIAL OBEDIENCE OF EARLY CHRISTIANS:

    They preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. ACTS 13.5
    And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues. ACTS 9.20



    FAILURE FORCED MESSAGE UNTO GENTILES:

    It was necessary that the word of God have been spoken unto you: but seeing that thou put it from you, and judge yourself unworthy of the everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. ACTS 13.46
    And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. ACTS 18.6
    Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have closed: lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. ACTS 28.26/28.



    CONTENTION IN THE EARLY CHURCH:

    And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. ACTS 11.1/3 "
    Source:A Pocket Book of Biblical References: Jesus Christ not a Universal Teacher

    Thus the lost tribes is not a universal matter. It were tribes of jews.




    It is historically proven that these lost Israelites had migrated to different eastern countries. Jesus in fulfillment of his heavenly mission, went to the lost Israelites and conveyed his prophetic message. In Kashmir, he died a natural honourable death. His tomb, even today can be visited in Srinagar, Kashmir.[Jesus in India @ alislam.org]
     
  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Sigh What sounds absurd? That the people of nations obey their leaders who are human?
     
  7. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    It is another wild case for captain obvious!

    Calling all captains!!! Calling all captains, come in captains! "What real evidence do you have of this?"



    So oppressed people who had no choice to obey their captures are guilty of something?

    Now quit deviating from context due to failure to substantiate your comment
     
    #7 outhouse, Oct 22, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  8. CMike

    CMike Well-Known Member

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    Sounds absurd to me too.

    The passage in Samuel refers to a specific point in time.

    Israel is supposed to obey their leaders. They can also obey G-D. They are not mutually exclusive.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    OK. The for the Christians here what does this mean?

    1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

    2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

    3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

    5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.

    6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

    7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

    8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

    9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

    10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

    11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

    12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.


    What was Israel? Was it not the "doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees".

    World English Bible
    this Ezra went up from Babylon: and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which Yahweh, the God of Israel, had given; and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of Yahweh his God on him. Ezra 7:6

    Are you two saying the kings of Israel were exempt from The Law? The law of God was mixed with wrong understanding of it and misleading.

    If someone is misled they get lost.
     
  10. Gnostic Seeker

    Gnostic Seeker Spiritual

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    Tell me- do you see Jesus as also a human leader?
     
  11. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    These are not quotes from jesus

    They are however quotes from many different unknown Hellenist from all over the Diaspora.
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    No. He is a teacher.

    To grant Jesus the Godhead is to make an image. This is a sin. But Jesus is alive in the spirit. This I know for sure.
     
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  13. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews that cannot accept Jesus's as a messiah.
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    No. Jesus came to gather the lost sheep of Israel. Might they all, as a nation, have been gathered back to The Father? Anything is possible.
     
  15. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Yes Jesus came to gather the Israelis who were like lost sheep. But they rejected him. They tried, convicted and put him to death for blasphemy.
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    He found sufficient sheep who were willing to carry out God's will that God's son might be made known to the nations. And the proof is evident in how many Bibles exist today.
     
  17. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    All the disciples were eventually killed including Paul. It was in 325 AD that the Roman Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of Rome. He ordered the assembling of the Bible that Rome could use at the council of Nicene.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    According to Josephus, Jesus had Jewish and non-Jewish followers, so apparently He wasn't limiting his message.

    sidenote: Although Josephus mixed in his own speculations into his writings, his historical notations should hold at least some credence.
     
    #18 Desert Snake, Oct 22, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  19. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    My only sources of this is the Bible (the Gospels) itself. Jesus said he came to the lost sheep of Israel. Outside of the Roman soldiers, there really wasn't anyone else to preach to, outside of some foreigners, I guess. It was Paul who went further into Rome and Greece to preach the word to the Gentiles.
    There were indeed "lost sheep". People who fell out of favor with their faith by doing what the religious leaders of that time called "Sinning". They were called Tax-collectors, whores, and whatever. Jesus said he came to "help the sick" as the healthy don't need a doctor.
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Who are the 'lost sheep' of Israel that Jesus spoke of?

    I don’t agree with the OP.

    There were 12 tribes of Israel out of which at the time of Jesus only two tribes were in Judea, the other ten were in exile.

    Assyrian captivity of Israel

    Unlike the Kingdom of Judah, which was able to return from its Babylonian Captivity, the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom never had a foreign edict granting permission to return and rebuild their homeland.

    Assyrian captivity of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Jesus exactly mentioned about them when he said:

    John 10:15-17

    …15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.…

    John 10 Parallel Chapters

    Matthew 15:23-26

    The Faith of the Canaanite Woman

    …23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lostsheep of the house of Israel." 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"…

    Matthew 15 Parallel Chapters

    Jesus prophesied that one day he would go to them to preach his ministry. And he did exactly like it.

    Regards
     
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