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Featured Who are the heirs of Israel?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Apr 27, 2021.

  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    I believe the Bible and the Bible says that the true heirs of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the Christians who have become children of Israel through faith in the gospel, they are now kings, priests and even gods. The fleshly Israel who reject the gospel have lost this blessing, they and all other gospel rejecters will be wiped out by Jesus, so says the Bible. And the only inhabitants of the new earth will be the Christians.

    Do you agree with me? If not, who do you think are the true heirs of this blessing?

    Galatians 3:29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Ecclesia Gentium
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    The Jews.
     
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  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    You need non-believers to be wiped out to validate your beliefs? And you want to be a god? Seems a little self-centered to me.
     
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  4. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Amen. And the true Jews are the Christians.

    But there are also people who are not Christians and claim to be Jews, about these people Jesus says in Revelation 3:9, "Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie..."
     
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    All people.
     
  6. Rival

    Rival Ecclesia Gentium
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    No they're not, they're Jews. Nothing to do with Jesus, the Christian Testament, or the Church.

    Just Jews. Real ones.
     
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  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So you need a book from outside the Jewish canon to make the proclamation that the people who are Jews aren't Jews but another group are now Jews instead.

    And if the Jedis came out with a movie saying that those who call themselves Christian aren't Christian, but the Jedis are the true Christians, would that argument have any value to you? What if the Russians decided that they are the true Americans. Or the left-handed people saying that according to their books, they are the true right-handed people?

    That's flat out insane.
     
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  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Hey, if that's your belief; so be it. But why are you celebrating the destruction?

    I'm also still curious about the desire to be a god; see below.

    It's like you're spiking the football, and dancing in the endzone.
     
  9. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Religiously...I do believe that Christians believe in a spiritual Jerusalem. In a heavenly Jerusalem.
     
  10. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    It deserves to be noted that your 'replacement theology' is not actually taught in the New Testament.

    Paul makes it clear in his epistle to the Romans that: "my kindred according to the flesh [...] are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah...I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." (Romans 9:3-5; 11:1-2).

    There was no doubt for Paul that he was an Israelite and a Jew by birth, and that Jews of his time remained the heirs of the patriarchal 'promises' and the Sinai covenant.

    Replacement theology arose later than the time of the NT. So far as the Pauline doctrine of election evidenced in the actual NT is concerned, 'Christianized' Gentiles are grafted into the Abrahamic covenant through baptism, which becomes a spiritual circumcision for them analogous to physical circumcision for Jews, and by faith in Jesus as the Messiah, which Paul understood through his exegesis as being in fulfilment of the verse in the Torah: "your name shall be Abraham (father of a multitude); For I will make you the father of many nations" (Genesis 17:5). This meant, for him, that the entire moral law of the Torah was binding on these converted Gentiles as interpreted and expanded by the NT (i.e. the Ten Words being the basis today still of the arrangement of catechetical teaching, the ancient first century Didache beginning with Deuteronomy's life/death choice) but not the ceremonial, cultic or other 'mitzvah'. Thus, he thought they would attain to salvation/share in the world to come, because: "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him" (Romans 10:12).

    That was really as far as Paul himself went.

    For our part, the contemporary Catholic Church recognizes the enduring validity of Rabbinic exegesis:


    “The Gifts and the Calling of God Are Irrevocable” (Rom 11:29)


    "While affirming salvation through an explicit or even implicit faith in Christ, the Church does not question the continued love of God for the chosen people of Israel. A replacement or supersession theology which sets against one another two separate entities, a Church of the Gentiles and the rejected Synagogue whose place it takes, is deprived of its foundations...

    As a consequence there were two responses to this situation, or more precisely, two new ways of reading Scripture, namely the Christological exegesis of the Christians and the rabbinical exegesis of that form of Judaism that developed historically...

    The document of the Pontifical Biblical Commission “The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible” in 2001 therefore stated that Christians can and must admit “that the Jewish reading of the Bible is a possible one, in continuity with the Jewish Scriptures from the Second Temple period, a reading analogous to the Christian reading which developed in parallel fashion”. It then draws the conclusion: “Both readings are bound up with the vision of their respective faiths, of which the readings are the result and expression. Consequently, both are irreducible” (No.22)."


    Granted, it's not the exegetical path which the New Testament authors and their immediate successors the Apostolic and Church Fathers (late 1st century CE - sixth century CE) adopted, however we recognize the Talmudic (tannaitic and amoraic) scriptural hermeneutic as being an interpretative tradition that is both in continuity with ancient (biblical) Israelite religion and represents a textually legitimate development of it, just not the particular path of development that the early Jesus sect and the Church took because of our distinctive theology.
     
    #10 Vouthon, Apr 27, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I'm getting a Chamber of Secrets vibe from the thread title.
     
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  12. Rival

    Rival Ecclesia Gentium
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    Is it written in blood tho?
     
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  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Fake Jews are languishing in hell, so I suppose there's also some blood.
     
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  14. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    oh that's the old story called replacement theology.
    Galatians 3:29 is about Abrahams descendants.
    Israel is about Jacob's descendants.
    See?
    Abraham has as many as 8 sons, and Jacob was his grandson.

    All Israel is saved according to Romans 11:26. Even though they reject the Gospel, as is made clear in verse 28, same chapter.
    Don't count out the Jew, I suggest.

    I stick to the following rule: Even in the New Testament, Israel is still Israel.
     
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Only a relatively small handful.

    BTW, "Jew" is a reference to nationality, whereas "Judaism" is a reference to a religion. Thus, the only way to "inherit" being a Jew is to be born one or to convert to Judaism.
     
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  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Israel doesn't need heirs, we are still going strong. We have a covenant that God said was everlasting. God doesn't lie, nor does he break his covenants.

    Thankfully, our theology is more generous and gracious. All the righteous have a share in the world to come, not just Jews.
     
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  17. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    The Bible was written by people who dreamed that in the end times kings would meet to battle Jesus in a field on horseback.

    They had no idea how powerful men would become.

    If Jesus where to return to start killing non-believers today He would be easily defeated.

    It is merely a sick fantasy that you have, motivated by your bigotry towards and hatred of non-believers in my opinion.

    Not believing in Jesus given the complete lack of evidence is not a crime.
     
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  18. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    If not Jacob, then who? Jacob is the child with the covenant, no one else. It is obvious that this refers to the lineage of Isaac and Jacob. Christians are the true children of them.(Galatians 4:21-31)
    No, no one, also not Jews, can be saved without having faith in the gospel. This would make the whole Bible illogical. In the same chapter, only three verses further back, Paul says if they leave their unbelief, then they will be grafted onto the tree of life and so also participate in eternal life.(Romans 11:23)
    Other passages also make it clear that Jews are not an exception, see Romans 11:26 Will all Israel be saved? - Ryan Rufus
    According to the Bible, a Jew without Jesus has lost his soul forever.
    Matthew 21:43
    Therefore I say to you: The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will bear its fruits.

    There is no longer a carnal Israel, but the spiritual one. This consists of all the people of the world, the new Israel.
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Ecclesia Gentium
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    Millions of Jews disagree.
     
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  20. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    But God doesn't care. God does not need anyone, if Moses had not interceded, God would have already wiped out all the Jews because of their disobedience. Already in the desert he killed many thousands of Jews because of their behavior. He is not interested in who you are, but whether you follow his word.
     
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