White Pride and White Nationalism

[Kirran]

Sure, but like I said, cultural boundaries have become more fluid today. We see many young white people adopting aspects of Black culture. Even Black people adopted aspects of Europeon culture as a means of excersizing power (one of the rules of a hegemonic society is that in order to excersize power you must adopt the cultural practices, i.e laws, norms etc of the ruling class). (I actually don't eat with a knife and fork btw ahaha).

I actually eat with chopsticks a lot haha

I'll address some of these points more further down.

Sure, there were minor difference, but if you contrast Christian norms and beliefs as a whole and contrast that with any other independent culture (like the hindu tradtions, african traditions etc) there are huge and stark differences.

Yes, that is true - but in actuality it was the Christian tradition that was held in common across ethnic groups, including in particular African Americans, whose traditions were often a little distinct but were more similar to the Baptism of the whites than to Catholicism.

Yeah I agree it was normative totally. But I do think that is a defining feature of white (European culture). I think we take for granted how much of the normative practices we have today that have their roots in European culture. It is why academics refer to the world as the Western world, c.f Eastern world, Middle Eastern world. Western culture, is pretty much European culture that has become pretty normalized in countries. Post Colonialism is a whole theory which deals with the ramifications of when two cultures (the European colonizers and the natives of a country) clash and how it leads to oppression, conflict and finally forging of a distinct culture.

I totally agree that Western cultures are essentially an outgrowth of the cultures of Europe, and in particular Western Europe and those areas influenced by Enlightenment values. We have no argument there.

What I would say is that an aspect of white privilege is that the culture which the white elites grow up with (this is all except for variant groups, essentially) is just the normative culture, rather than being one culture alongside others (in which case you'd have white culture alongside black culture). Any person has to conform to the social and cultural norms of the dominant group so as to more easily make their way in society. So Barack Obama, for example, is neither derived from, nor appears to particularly exhibit, the culture of the African-Americans. Culturally, he belongs to no particular minority culture and so can be said to be a member of American normative culture. But that doesn't make him a member of white culture exactly, because that implies switching between options, rather than acquiescing to the implicit demands for assimilation by the European-derived 'default' culture.

Obviously the situation is more complex than this - I grew up in an area of the UK where there were essentially two British cultural streams and ethnic groups, one in particular rather ill-defined.

 

[Kirran]

I think pride in this context is often more about solidarity and mutual support in resistance to hegemonising and oppressive forced. Certainly pride in being black or being white or whatever the hell else is also a distinct phenomenon, but that's basically nationalism by that point and is certainly not something of any value.

 

[metis]

I'm proud to be a human, but not at the expense of animals, which is why I prefer to be vegetarian. However, my wife disagrees, so...

 

[Kirran]

I'm proud to be a human, but not at the expense of animals, which is why I prefer to be vegetarian. However, my wife disagrees, so...

This is a bit of a tangent, but I wonder if you find that difficult?

I honestly can't see that I'd ever be able to have a romantic relationship with somebody who wasn't vegetarian, it would be such a clash in values. But maybe that's because I haven't met the right meat-eater

 

[निताइ dasa]

What I would say is that an aspect of white privilege is that the culture which the white elites grow up with (this is all except for variant groups, essentially) is just the normative culture, rather than being one culture alongside others (in which case you'd have white culture alongside black culture). Any person has to conform to the social and cultural norms of the dominant group so as to more easily make their way in society.

Yup I agree hahaha! Lol what were we arguing about?

Any person has to conform to the social and cultural norms of the dominant group so as to more easily make their way in society.

I actually don't think whites are the dominant group in society today (not in practice or policy anyway), even though white culture has become the norm. I think its simply due to remenents of the past, and people are now recognising differences and changing as a result. (for example Vegan/Vegatarianism is something that comes out of the Eastern Traditions, and maybe a few decades back people would look at you really weird if you were a Vegan/Vegetarian. But now, generally people don't have a problem). That is why personally I have no problem with a normative white society, because where it matters, I don't think white culture is incompatible with other cultural norms. That is the great think about culture. It is not static, but rather it changes and people and their perceptions change. See the perception of Gay Marriage. In the last 5 years alone, there have been huge changes in perception regarding that issue. Hence barring the most extreme circumstance, I simply don't see the evidence that adoption of a culture alone can prevent us certain opportunities. This is prob one of my more controversial opinions I like to think.

 

[Kemosloby]

You actually have to ask?

I'm not gay, but what's wrong with them having pride?

What is their excuse for having pride? Apparently white people can't have pride because they can trace their heritage.

 

[columbus]

There is something else going on to, here in the USA at least.

Something I have heard at Jewish seders is "They tried to kill us off. They failed. Let's eat!". A lot of the assorted Pride stuff is largely celebrating survivorship. White people in the USA don't really have that, except for individual groups like the Irish.
White nationalism is sort of the opposite. "Oh, weren't the good old days of oppression and privilege Wonderful! "
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Whatever one's skin color, people would be better served by taking pride in things that actually matter, like your health, appearance, conduct, accomplishments, family, and friends. Taking "pride" in categorical accidents of birth invariably leads to separation from "others" and a sense of self-superiority.

Although the way you state this is absolutely dripping with virulent racism & blind hatred, I agree.

 

[Laika]

This is an argument I see used a lot. The argument for white pride and nationalism. I read and hear it often: "why can't I be proud of my culture?" You can. You have always been able to do so. We have Irish pride celebrations, German drinking festivals and Serbian food festivals. Any European culture you can think of has organizations in North America dedicated to taking pride in their heritage. No one will give them (or you) grief.

However, when you begin to talk about "white pride", we begin to run into some issues. That's not a culture. That's a skin color. There is no white culture, never was. There is no pan-European culture, never was. Europe is a continent, not a culture or ethnicity.

Now, some of you are thinking: "But wait! Black pride! How is that okay?" Go find a black person and ask them if their ancestors were slaves. When you find one who says "yes", proceed to ask them "what country in Africa were your ancestors from?" Do you know what their answer will be? "I don't know." This is because their culture was taken from them. It was beaten out of them. They were enslaved, Christianized, and then white washed. The one unifying feature they have as a people is that history of slavery and that history of being black. They can't have Liberian pride, or Congolese pride, or "insert African country" pride. They have no idea where their ancestors came from other than the broad region of West Africa.

Meanwhile us white people can often trace our ancestors to specific cities and regions. I can trace my mother's maiden name to a single hamlet in England. I know where I came from. I don't have white culture, I have English/German culture. Most black communities do not have that luxury.

The issue with White Culture is not simply to do with skin colour. The concept of "whiteness" borrows from racial ideologies of the 18th and 19th century in which physical appearance causes/reflects moral and social qualities. How the link is attributed can be based on genetic determinism in which behaviour is determined by genetics such as in socio-biology or through religious, mystical and supernatural bonds.

Regardless of the exact deatils, the sense of race as determining moral characteristics affects a persons sense of cultural and national identity. So the success of European nations in conquering other people's, spreading Christianity, spurring scientific, technological and artistic or literary wonders is attributed to the "genius of the white race" as a basis for a pan-european identity.

The fear is that racial mixing will weaken the genetic "quality" of the white race. Opposition to multi-culturalism and egalitarianism (aka. Political correctness or "cultural marxism") is driven by the sense that these are unnatural and contary to the laws of racial hygiene because races are naturally unequal due to genetics or "biology". So strong anti-immigration sentiment is motivated to prevent the contagion of alien races from entering the country and mixing with the native people, bringing with them "foreign" cultures, traditions and religions created by those races.

I'm not defending the idea, merely a very rough attempt at trying to explain it. RF is going to be an echo chamber on this subject with everyone agreeing about how wrong white nationalists are.

If you looking for a sort of explanation, look no further than the source below:

==> Intro Material for People New to StormFront <== - Stormfront

...Then never go there ever again!

 

[metis]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I wonder if you find that difficult?

I honestly can't see that I'd ever be able to have a romantic relationship with somebody who wasn't vegetarian, it would be such a clash in values. But maybe that's because I haven't met the right meat-eater

LOL! Well, I definitely married the right woman, soon to be 50 years ago this upcoming March, and we almost always were willing to compromise, including in this area. So, most of our meals are vegetarian, but I have meat maybe twice a week, usually fish or chicken, and that includes all meals.

It's funny when we go out to a restaurant to eat, when the waiter/waitress comes back with one meat meal and one vegetarian meal, most of the time they'll put the vegetarian meal in front on my wife and the meat meal in front of me.

BTW, there's a comment that I can make about the advantage of being married to a wife who's a meat eater, but I don't want get kicked off RF.

 

[Quetzal]

RF is going to be an echo chamber on this subject with everyone agreeing about how wrong white nationalists are.

You would be disappointed and surprised.

 

[metis]

What is their excuse for having pride? Apparently white people can't have pride because they can trace their heritage.

You actually might take a look at my post #16.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

This is an argument I see used a lot. The argument for white pride and nationalism. I read and hear it often: "why can't I be proud of my culture?" You can. You have always been able to do so. We have Irish pride celebrations, German drinking festivals and Serbian food festivals. Any European culture you can think of has organizations in North America dedicated to taking pride in their heritage. No one will give them (or you) grief.

However, when you begin to talk about "white pride", we begin to run into some issues. That's not a culture. That's a skin color. There is no white culture, never was. There is no pan-European culture, never was. Europe is a continent, not a culture or ethnicity.

Now, some of you are thinking: "But wait! Black pride! How is that okay?" Go find a black person and ask them if their ancestors were slaves. When you find one who says "yes", proceed to ask them "what country in Africa were your ancestors from?" Do you know what their answer will be? "I don't know." This is because their culture was taken from them. It was beaten out of them. They were enslaved, Christianized, and then white washed. The one unifying feature they have as a people is that history of slavery and that history of being black. They can't have Liberian pride, or Congolese pride, or "insert African country" pride. They have no idea where their ancestors came from other than the broad region of West Africa.

Meanwhile us white people can often trace our ancestors to specific cities and regions. I can trace my mother's maiden name to a single hamlet in England. I know where I came from. I don't have white culture, I have English/German culture. Most black communities do not have that luxury.

Taking pride in one's skin colour is something I've always found absurd.

I understand black people coming together to celebrate their history and the things their ancestors went through. At the same time, I also feel that such things divide us rather than bring us together. I don't want black people forming a clique, and brown people forming another, and white people another, and then staying away from each other. (You're also from England, right? This does happen in London, and other areas where people stick to a friendship group of the same race, and a community of the same race or similar race). I want a colour-blind society, one united by one culture in which everyone can take pride in and value. This race stuff is such nonsense, it's just some melanin in the skin or a little different mix of genetics, I don't get it, though I can understand people looking fondly at their ancestry. For example, a first generation immigrant can understandably take pride in their country of origin, they're very closely linked.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The issue with White Culture is not simply to do with skin colour. The concept of "whiteness" borrows from racial ideologies of the 18th and 19th century in which physical appearance causes/reflects moral and social qualities. How the link is attributed can be based on genetic determinism in which behaviour is determined by genetics such as in socio-biology or through religious, mystical and supernatural bonds.

Regardless of the exact deatils, the sense of race as determining moral characteristics affects a persons sense of cultural and national identity. So the success of European nations in conquering other people's, spreading Christianity, spurring scientific, technological and artistic or literary wonders is attributed to the "genius of the white race" as a basis for a pan-european identity.

The fear is that racial mixing will weaken the genetic "quality" of the white race. Opposition to multi-culturalism and egalitarianism (aka. Political correctness or "cultural marxism") is driven by the sense that these are unnatural and contary to the laws of racial hygiene because races are naturally unequal due to genetics or "biology". So strong anti-immigration sentiment is motivated to prevent the contagion of alien races from entering the country and mixing with the native people, bringing with them "foreign" cultures, traditions and religions created by those races.

I'm not defending the idea, merely a very rough attempt at trying to explain it. RF is going to be an echo chamber on this subject with everyone agreeing about how wrong white nationalists are.

If you looking for a sort of explanation, look no further than the source below:

==> Intro Material for People New to StormFront <== - Stormfront

...Then never go there ever again!

Why would opposition to multiculturalism be driven by some belief they are "unnatural and contrary to the laws of racial hygiene", and from all these racial theories?

Is it so hard to think there is a belief that you want your culture, completely unrelated to race, to remain unchanged and be the sole culture of the land? Why must we connect it to race?

 

[Quetzal]

You're also from England, right?

Nah, US.

 

[Kemosloby]

You actually might take a look at my post #16.

People used to take great pride in downgrading others. Black people were so good at it they made a game out of it, called dozens.
doz·en
ˈdəzən/
noun
plural noun: dozens

2. 2.
   an exchange of insults engaged in as a game or ritual among black Americans.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Nah, US.

Lol! I don't know why I thought that. Haven't had enough coffee today.

 

[Kirran]

Yup I agree hahaha! Lol what were we arguing about?

We were arguing? :O

I actually don't think whites are the dominant group in society today (not in practice or policy anyway), even though white culture has become the norm. I think its simply due to remenents of the past, and people are now recognising differences and changing as a result. (for example Vegan/Vegatarianism is something that comes out of the Eastern Traditions, and maybe a few decades back people would look at you really weird if you were a Vegan/Vegetarian. But now, generally people don't have a problem). That is why personally I have no problem with a normative white society, because where it matters, I don't think white culture is incompatible with other cultural norms. That is the great think about culture. It is not static, but rather it changes and people and their perceptions change. See the perception of Gay Marriage. In the last 5 years alone, there have been huge changes in perception regarding that issue. Hence barring the most extreme circumstance, I simply don't see the evidence that adoption of a culture alone can prevent us certain opportunities. This is prob one of my more controversial opinions I like to think.

I think white people have a lot of implicit privileges in Western societies still today. Calling them a dominant group is probably not quite right, because we aren't in such discrete racial groups nowadays.

I wouldn't say that not eating meat comes out of Eastern traditions per se - certainly many encourage it, but it's emerged many times from different traditions. I won't argue with you that the spread of awareness of Eastern traditions to the West has encouraged vegetarianism.

I would agree that Western culture, which is largely derived from European ideals historically, is capable of change, as all cultures are dynamic, and aren't separate from the people on the ground. Values definitely have changed a lot over the last few years! Let alone the last few decades.

I'm not sure that's a controversial opinion. Maybe I just missed something

LOL! Well, I definitely married the right woman, soon to be 50 years ago this upcoming March, and we almost always were willing to compromise, including in this area. So, most of our meals are vegetarian, but I have meat maybe twice a week, usually fish or chicken, and that includes all meals.

It's funny when we go out to a restaurant to eat, when the waiter/waitress comes back with one meat meal and one vegetarian meal, most of the time they'll put the vegetarian meal in front on my wife and the meat meal in front of me.

Hahaha, that is pretty funny.

BTW, there's a comment that I can make about the advantage of being married to a wife who's a meat eater, but I don't want get kicked off RF.

There I was 'aww, I wanted to hear the joke'. And then 'Ooooooh.'

 

[Quetzal]

I don't know why I thought that.

Was it my sharp wit? Charm and good looks?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Was it my sharp wit? Charm and good looks?

No just the general snobbishness and looking down the nose-

Oh, yes of course, the wit, the charm, the good looks! Absolutely!