White man like locusts:

[kreeden]

Thank you PW for taking a balanced stand on this .

As I said before , I too could point fingers . The buffalo drop being one . But of course , I would only be a white guy being racist if I did .

There are many ways to live off the land , and there are many ways to respect the land . Race DOES NOT provide that respect . That respect has to be learnt . And , sadly it can also be lost , forgotten .

I want to list things I have seen , things I have read and heard , but what would be the use ? Prejudice and bigotry has never gotten us anywhere in the pass , and are unlikely to do so in the future . And in my opinion , a crime is a crime regardless of the colour of the skin .

Painted Wolf , you once said something to me about spirituality and blood . I think that I understand what you meant , stronger now then I had ever before .

ES , I am not denying that it was the greed of the " white " people that almost lead to the lost of the bison . In this case , and much too many other case . All that I'm saying is that other groups have also shown that type of greed . It is not limited to any race , or mixed race { whatever that has to do with anything ??? } . Today there are other animals , endangered animals , being hunted for " parts ". And the main market for some of those parts are Asian , and yes , even First Nation .

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

History is that everyone was messing up this land not just the whites. Native Americans were active fur hunters for trade as were the growing populations of blacks, asians and others who came in. No one people were saints and no one people were monsters.

Regardless of who did what, whats done is done... we need to look to the future.

Today tribal nations decide to let oil companies drill thier lands and Mines to operate and waste dumps to be put in... We need to look at what is going on now not complain about what happined in the past.

Niceguy you are not just one person... there are many who want to do the right thing. However so long as every thinks that they 'are just one person' and that they are powerless to act then they are right. You are as powerless as you think you are.
Organizations help many small voices become larger ones... some companies work to help the environment as they do what they must to make money, you can learn which companies do and support them over the wasteful ones... when you purchase items you can choose to buy those ones that are produced in sustainable ways.. you can reuse and recycle rather than just thow away...
You have options, you just need to look for them.

wa:do

This reminds me of the Crying Indian commercial. I always cried with him.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Many people who harm nature do so because they have no choice, let's say you live in africa and you family are starving, can you abstain from hunting some elephants for their tusks? Most of the pochers that hunt species to extinxtion don't really have a choice.

The Indians hunted this nation for many, many years, and we are talking about substantial populations. And the bison population had not even a dent in it. I wish I could witness a migrating herd of several million animals. What an awsome thing to see, with the ground vibrating under their hoofs. But an Indian would never leave a carcass to rot in the sun. Every part of the buffalo was used and is useful.

The same happens with deforestation, much are cut, not for their timber but to clear land for farming. We in the western world have to litterary burn crops since our farmers have the skill and equipment to overproduce en masse. The farmers in the developing countries cannot afford to do this. In poor country many have to farm their own food or starve. They also get little payment for their products since they are often outcompeted by many other farmers like them and mass producing farmes in the western world.

Most of our trees are cut down for paper production, and this could have been completely avoided if we had continued to use hemp for paper instead of trees. And this is still an option, if the government would pull it's head out of the **** of big business, admit they were wrong and legalize marijuana. (Sorry-moment of anger:149: )

The root of the problem, as I see it is greed. Greed motivates capitalism, it is also considered a mortal sin.

Amen, that's what I'm talkin' about.

 

[niceguy]

At least we could do something about the waste of paper. We do have prgrams for reusing paper and technology could help as well, a newspaper could be read online. There are already mobile phones that allows ut so sur the web, now use this technology with a simplified chead flatscreen and you get something that could be used to simply download your newspaper electronically. Real paper could then be saved for things like high quality books and for those we could indeed use hemp.

Regarding overpopulation in some areas, it is well knows that people that have a resonably high standard of living do don't get many childrens. Fighting greed and introducing fairness could fix this problem as well.

 

[kreeden]

But an Indian would never leave a carcass to rot in the sun. Every part of the buffalo was used and is useful.

Can you say bull **** ? I have seen an " Indian " leave the carcasses of THREE Moose in the back of a pick-up to rot . A Cow and two calves . And this was not a " mixed blood Indian ".

Ok , I deleted the rest of this post , before I even posted it . I have hunted , and trapped . I have wasted the lifes of those I hunted and trapped , at times . Something I have tried not to do , but it happens . I have relatives that made their livings proaching these animals . I make no excuses for myself or them .

However , my experinces ARE NOT based upon the Disney channel . I have skinned moose beside " pure blooded " First Nation people , and have been shown respect for my skills . I have hunted with these people . Eat with them , and am the godfather of a child who's Grandmother spoke only Carrier . And " these people " are as disgusted with some of " their own " as I have been with some of my own , and as I have at times been with myself . But such are people . Any people that have open eyes !

I have never seen the " crying Indian " commercial . However , I would dare to assune that it is as stereotyped as any other " Indian " stereotype .

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Can you say bull **** ? I have seen an " Indian " leave the carcasses of THREE Moose in the back of a pick-up to rot . A Cow and two calves . And this was not a " mixed blood Indian ".

Ok , I deleted the rest of this post , before I even posted it . I have hunted , and trapped . I have wasted the lifes of those I hunted and trapped , at times . Something I have tried not to do , but it happens . I have relatives that made their livings proaching these animals . I make no excuses for myself or them .

However , my experinces ARE NOT based upon the Disney channel . I have skinned moose beside " pure blooded " First Nation people , and have been shown respect for my skills . I have hunted with these people . Eat with them , and am the godfather of a child who's Grandmother spoke only Carrier . And " these people " are as disgusted with some of " their own " as I have been with some of my own , and as I have at times been with myself . But such are people . Any people that have open eyes !

I have never seen the " crying Indian " commercial . However , I would dare to assune that it is as stereotyped as any other " Indian " stereotype .

Ok I made the mistake of saying that an Indian would 'never' do something. I bet if those boys had depended on those for food, they would have been more respectful of their fellow creatures. What I was saying is that Indians were much more a part of nature, while still being spiritual, than were others who came after them.

The commercial was from the 70's and is an Indian walking by a trash dump, then by a pulluted river, then he rides his horse over towards a highway littered with trash. There is no talking through the commercial, and in the end, a close up of the Cheif, shows him to have a tear rolling down his cheek, as he looks at what has become of Mother Earth.

My skills of hunting and such have been admired too, but it's probably because I'm a woman.

 

[kreeden]

I have to apologize here . To ES and anyone else . I have allowed my emotions to get the best of me .

I understand what you are saying ES , and agree with it , to a point . It is how you are saying it that bothers me . There is a bigger picture . And there are important lessons to be learnt , that can only be learnt if we keep the big picture in mind , IMHO .

I have to run . Work and all . I just wanted to apologize first .

 

[painted wolf]

The crying indian is a poor sterotype.... I never really liked those commercials... there were other ways to make that message work.

I have mentioned that eaven in the distant past we wasted carcasses... hundreds of Bison driven over cliffs when the people could only eat one of them. The rest was left to rot. Respect is not a nessisity it is learned, eaven when you depend on a thing it doesn't mean you will respect it.

Harvesting trees in some areas is nessisary... brushfires/forestfires are increased in frequency and distruction by having too much brush and dence forest. The key to any sort of harvest of resources is to do so in a sustainable and low impact way.

In Africa there are many working to help limit the impact that the swelling populations are having on the environment... they are implemeting the replanting of trees and the use of alternitive fuel for cooking such as solar ovens.

They key is to learn to get what we need in responcible ways.

wa:do

 

[Hirohito18200]

I wouldn't say nothing can be done; in fact, I'd say we have made huge progress already. There are at least five major casinos within ten miles of my house, all owned and managed exclusively by full blooded Indians (missed cut by 1 generation, DANGIT). Last I checked, each married household with two children pulled in a cool $200,000+ a year for just sitting there, plus, they are given priority for hiring in the casinos if they feel compelled to work. I personally love to see them driving around in their Escalades absolutely rubbing it back in our faces, we deserve no less

 

[kreeden]

I have mentioned that eaven in the distant past we wasted carcasses... hundreds of Bison driven over cliffs when the people could only eat one of them. The rest was left to rot. Respect is not a nessisity it is learned, eaven when you depend on a thing it doesn't mean you will respect it.

They key is to learn to get what we need in responcible ways.

wa:do

I agree PW . It does appear to be a hard lesson to learn though . We have came a long way , because we had to . But still , we plant trees , but only trees that we can harvest { pretty much } . We have brough the bison back , but as something more like cattle then what they were . We ... Well , it is a long list .

We are trying to turn Nature into a farm . IMHO . And I don't think that will work . There are just too damn many of us , and we tend to be greedy . And IMHO a Bear is a Bear , no matter what colour his hide is . Just as Locust are Locust .

 

[michel]

I don't believe this. I believe that whatever seeds were sown then, we are responsible for the harvest. I believe we should be spending more time and energy on what we can do to replenish the land, but instead we are still trying to be seperate from nature.

I have never quite understood the 'sins of our father's'

(Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

Especially with the apparent contradiction:-

(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

 

[NothingIsNot]

Europeens should of left the Americas alone.

 

[kreeden]

Michel , me neither . I have enough of my own to live with .

Nothingisnot , and mankind should have stayed in the trees ?

 

[Valjean]

Ecological rape is not a white or red thing -- it is a human thing. All humans tend to exploit Nature to the degree their numbers and technology allow. It was not "whites" who wiped out the Pleistocene megafauna, and a band of Native Americans once killed a whole herd of bison and left the carcasses to rot; harvesting only the tongues to sell to whites.

People respect those things that are integral to their economies. Peoples with primitive technologies who live close to Nature tend to have a great respect for and feel protective toward Nature, but when an immediate economic benefit may be realized by contravening these values most people will go for the short-term gain. Long-term planning was of little value among hunter-gatherers so was never hard-wired into our psychology.

 

[painted wolf]

our elders encouraged us to think seven generations ahead... we planned for the future..
Granted most Native American Nations were farmers not strict hunter-gatherers...
We had to plan ahead as Corn our major crop couldn't be planted sustainably for more than a few years (around seven in fact) in one place as it was hard on the soil....

The lure of short term gain is a classic ill that has brought numerous cultures to thier doom. We need to listen to thier lessons...

*ps- humans wern't the only cause of the Megafauna die off... we did play a role but it was more than just us that killed them off.

wa:do

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

I don't really think it is a question of "righting" wrongs, we have gone too far with our policies to "apoligize" which to me is a simple feel good philosophy to allow some to live with themselves or for others to say o.k we did wrong then "but now!" while following the same faulty policies- the beast marches on. There is nothing that can be done about the past, I destroy your ability to get food, I rape your wife, and I turn your children against you what does the "official" apology get you- what if I did the same to you?

 

[painted wolf]

so far the only policy I know of to 'offically apoligize' is to say no to it....
Has there ever been an 'offical apology' for native american genocide?

There was one for not passing anti-lynching statues when Senate had the chance: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/13/AR2005061301720.html
But not slavery itself....

wa:do