Which one is a Cult? A or B?

[Hermit Philosopher]

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

'Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' (1 Corinthians 15:24)


A. Trinitarians Claim that God hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father
B. Christians Claim Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father

I think that a group is not a cult because of what it believes in, but because of how it does so. A cult treats you a little bit like a psychopathic lover would. It coerces you into:

• annihilating yourself from the rest of the world
• believing that it owns you and that you cannot live without it
• submitting to everything it says, etc

A cult will ensure that it is all that you have left because then, if you attempt to leave it, it will banish you from all that you have.

What specifically a cult believes, is secondary to how it treats you.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Brian2]

I think that a group is not a cult because of what it believes in, but because of how it does so. A cult treats you a little bit like a psychopathic lover would. It coerces you into:

• annihilating yourself from the rest of the world
• believing that it owns you and that you cannot live without it
• submitting to everything it says, etc

A cult will ensure that it is all that you have left because then, if you attempt to leave it, it will banish you from all that you have.

What specifically a cult believes, is secondary to how it treats you.

Humbly
Hermit

I like that answer and have heard things like it before. That of course would mean that a group with the right beliefs could be termed a cult on it's behaviour.
I heard someone once say that the fundamentalists in the US might be classified as cult like.
Certainly certain groups can get teachings from the Bible and use them to control people,,,,,,,,thinking they are doing what God wants them to do.

 

[YoursTrue]

They have the nature of a servant of God just as humans have but were not humans because they are not descendants of Adam.
This however does not mean that Jesus foofed a body up to appear to His disciples in. An idea like that denies the scriptures that tell us that Jesus rose bodily.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Matt 28:5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.

First, thinking about this and who or what the word God means to you because we can discuss the body and spirit inhabiting the body later -- about "God" as God being in Jesus' manly human flesh as you believe, we'll get to that later, but really first it's important to establish the following:
When the Israelites were going into the Promised Land after 40 years in the wilderness, let's try to keep it simple and truthful: How do you feel about the following scripture. Let's go over it carefully, if possible, sticking to this one particular scripture for now: (we can go over spirit/body and spirit vs. body later hopefully)

Joshua 24:15 -
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
So let's go over that scripture if you will. What was the choice the Israelites were to make?

 

[YoursTrue]

The witch brought Samuel back from the dead! Saul was searching for advice!
1 Samuel 28:14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

"YoursTrue The answer to the question is, of course, “none.”

LOGIC ALONE.. If God never called an angel his Son, then Michael—who is an angel—cannot be the Son.

The fact that Michael is an archangel does not change anything, as he is still an angel by nature. An archangel is simply a “higher order” of angel, but an angel nonetheless; “arch-” simply means “ruling” or “high ranking.”

He knew it was Samuel in the sense that he believed it, Instead of praying to God, why would he go to a witch? It wasn't Samuel, Saul thought it was. Look at the verse before Saul "recognized" what he believed was Samuel -- and answer why you think the witch thought she saw a "god." 1 Samuel 28:13 -
“Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?” “I see a god coming up out of the earth,” she said.
So what did the witch tell Saul she saw?

 

[Brian2]

First, thinking about this and who or what the word God means to you because we can discuss the body and spirit inhabiting the body later -- about "God" as God being in Jesus' manly human flesh as you believe, we'll get to that later, but really first it's important to establish the following:
When the Israelites were going into the Promised Land after 40 years in the wilderness, let's try to keep it simple and truthful: How do you feel about the following scripture. Let's go over it carefully, if possible, sticking to this one particular scripture for now: (we can go over spirit/body and spirit vs. body later hopefully)

Joshua 24:15 -
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
So let's go over that scripture if you will. What was the choice the Israelites were to make?

The Israelites were to make the choice of whether to serve the gods of the nations or to serve YHWH.

 

[Dogknox20]

He knew it was Samuel in the sense that he believed it, Instead of praying to God, why would he go to a witch? It wasn't Samuel, Saul thought it was. Look at the verse before Saul "recognized" what he believed was Samuel -- and answer why you think the witch thought she saw a "god." 1 Samuel 28:13 -
“Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?” “I see a god coming up out of the earth,” she said.
So what did the witch tell Saul she saw?

.
WHAT... With all respect intended I say "You are sucking slew water"! This verse proves the soul does not disappear at death!

Word for word... In the New World translation..
14 At once he asked her: “What does he look like?” to which she said: “It is an old man coming up, and he is clothed in a sleeveless coat.”+ At that Saul realized that it was “Samuel,” and he bowed low with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.
15 Then “Samuel” said to Saul: “Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?”

 

[YoursTrue]

The Israelites were to make the choice of whether to serve the gods of the nations or to serve YHWH.

That is correct.

 

[YoursTrue]

.
WHAT... With all respect intended I say "You are sucking slew water"! This verse proves the soul does not disappear at death!

Word for word... In the New World translation..
14 At once he asked her: “What does he look like?” to which she said: “It is an old man coming up, and he is clothed in a sleeveless coat.”+ At that Saul realized that it was “Samuel,” and he bowed low with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.
15 Then “Samuel” said to Saul: “Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?”

You might conclude that from the account, but...how could a witch call up a soul? Similarly today, such practices are not in harmony with God's commandments. She knew for sure she was going against Jehovah by engaging in that practice. So common sense and understanding would help someone to realize Saul was disobeying Jehovah, a witch has no power to call up a soul, and Saul was deceived. He believed it was Samuel when she said she saw a person, but clearly the witch could not call up a dead soul. The demons used her to fool Saul. And others who don't understand it. And Saul, who already was in disfavor with God, was completely deceived. Poor Saul, dying as he did. Note the supposed spirit asked Saul, not the witch, why he disturbed him. Neither Saul nor the witch had that kind of power. To believe that Saul really saw Samuel doesn't make sense. He only thought he saw Samuel. It was in his mind that he believed it was Samuel, so that's how it was related.

 

[Dogknox20]

You might conclude that from the account, but...how could a witch call up a soul? Similarly today, such practices are not in harmony with God's commandments. She knew for sure she was going against Jehovah by engaging in that practice. So common sense and understanding would help someone to realize Saul was disobeying Jehovah, a witch has no power to call up a soul, and Saul was deceived. He believed it was Samuel when she said she saw a person, but clearly the witch could not call up a dead soul. The demons used her to fool Saul. And others who don't understand it. And Saul, who already was in disfavor with God, was completely deceived. Poor Saul, dying as he did. Note the supposed spirit asked Saul, not the witch, why he disturbed him. Neither Saul nor the witch had that kind of power. To believe that Saul really saw Samuel doesn't make sense. He only thought he saw Samuel. It was in his mind that he believed it was Samuel, so that's how it was related.

.
There you go again "OPINION"!
You reject the scriptures because you lack faith! Christians believe the words of God! Your words "how could a witch call up a soul"? I am not a witch so I don't know how.. I am a Christian!
Fact is you have been tricked by a church that is Anti-Christ! THINK Satan also hates Christ! Satan wants to be worshiped he does NOT want man to worship Jesus so he starts a church 100 years ago that teaches Jesus is NOT God! He hates man.. Satan hates all men, he hates you... Why would he pull you away from Christianity except to take your soul to stop you from loving God; he changes God' name..!
FACT: “Jehovah” is not God’s name, the name was the result of an error made by a thirteenth-century Catholic monk. In the original Hebrew language, God’s name as revealed to Moses at the burning bush is rendered as YHWH—or Yahweh, meaning “I Am.”
Ancient Hebrew was a consonantal language (no vowels). Out of reverence for God, faithful Jews would not even speak his name, so when YHWH was written in the biblical scrolls, the scribes would write the markings for the vowel sounds a-o-a for the word adonai (“Lord”) directly over YHWH so that anyone reading the scroll would know to say adonai rather than Yahweh.
Along comes our monk and, seeing the vowel markings over YHWH, thought they were part of the actual spelling of God’s name and thus combined YHWH with a-o-a, making YaHoWaH, which eventually became “Jehovah.” So every time JWs insist on the use of God’s name, they are actually promoting a corrupted form of it.
Also... Satan teaches don't worry there is NO hell. Why would he do that? Simple answer is; if there is NO hell you can't lose eternal life!
etc

YoursTrue Jesus established his Church on ROCK not on sand, he is a good builder his Church will never fail... His church cannot fall... this means your Church is not sound it is a lie! Your church was started by a man less then 150 years ago, it is NOT the church found in the bible; it is corrupted by lies! Satan is the father of lies.. Think about that!

 

[YoursTrue]

.
There you go again "OPINION"!
You reject the scriptures because you lack faith! Christians believe the words of God! Your words "how could a witch call up a soul"? I am not a witch so I don't know how.. I am a Christian!
Fact is you have been tricked by a church that is Anti-Christ! THINK Satan also hates Christ! Satan wants to be worshiped he does NOT want man to worship Jesus so he starts a church 100 years ago that teaches Jesus is NOT God! He hates man.. Satan hates all men, he hates you... Why would he pull you away from Christianity except to take your soul to stop you from loving God; he changes God' name..!
FACT: “Jehovah” is not God’s name, the name was the result of an error made by a thirteenth-century Catholic monk. In the original Hebrew language, God’s name as revealed to Moses at the burning bush is rendered as YHWH—or Yahweh, meaning “I Am.”
Ancient Hebrew was a consonantal language (no vowels). Out of reverence for God, faithful Jews would not even speak his name, so when YHWH was written in the biblical scrolls, the scribes would write the markings for the vowel sounds a-o-a for the word adonai (“Lord”) directly over YHWH so that anyone reading the scroll would know to say adonai rather than Yahweh.
Along comes our monk and, seeing the vowel markings over YHWH, thought they were part of the actual spelling of God’s name and thus combined YHWH with a-o-a, making YaHoWaH, which eventually became “Jehovah.” So every time JWs insist on the use of God’s name, they are actually promoting a corrupted form of it.
Also... Satan teaches don't worry there is NO hell. Why would he do that? Simple answer is; if there is NO hell you can't lose eternal life!
etc

YoursTrue Jesus established his Church on ROCK not on sand, he is a good builder his Church will never fail... His church cannot fall... this means your Church is not sound it is a lie! Your church was started by a man less then 150 years ago, it is NOT the church found in the bible; it is corrupted by lies! Satan is the father of lies.. Think about that!

So you think it was OK for Saul to inquire of a witch? And that Samuel would come at the behest of a witch? Well, ok ... take care and have a nice day.

 

[Dogknox20]

So you think it was OK for Saul to inquire of a witch? And that Samuel would come at the behest of a witch? Well, ok ... take care and have a nice day.

The bible tells you; it is WRONG to inquire of a witch! All men are sinners, Saul is a man!
YoursTrue Why don't you read the passage yourself... If you did you would not be asking me these kinds of questions!

 

[Brian2]

That is correct.

And who or what were the gods of the nations?
And who was YHWH?

 

[YoursTrue]

And who or what were the gods of the nations?
And who was YHWH?

I thought you said that about the gods of the nations and YHWH. I agreed with you. So what do you think then are the gods of the nations and YHWH?

 

[YoursTrue]

The bible tells you; it is WRONG to inquire of a witch! All men are sinners, Saul is a man!
YoursTrue Why don't you read the passage yourself... If you did you would not be asking me these kinds of questions!

So if it is wrong to inquire of a witch, why would YHWH or what Saul believed was Samuel give Saul an honest answer by means of this apparition called up by something YHWH condemned? People go to witches a lot and really believe what they are hearing. This doesn't mean they are hearing from who they think or believe they are hearing from or seeing. Do you inquire of the dead?

 

[YoursTrue]

The bible tells you; it is WRONG to inquire of a witch! All men are sinners, Saul is a man!
YoursTrue Why don't you read the passage yourself... If you did you would not be asking me these kinds of questions!

All men are SINNERS, that is true. Glad you know that!!

 

[Dogknox20]

So if it is wrong to inquire of a witch, why would YHWH or what Saul believed was Samuel give Saul an honest answer by means of this apparition called up by something YHWH condemned? People go to witches a lot and really believe what they are hearing. This doesn't mean they are hearing from who they think or believe they are hearing from or seeing. Do you inquire of the dead?

.
I don't inquire of the dead!
YoursTrue The scriptures tell you word for word ...Saul called up the soul of Samuel. Samuel answered the question Saul posed! Samuel was conscience he talked he answered!! HOW? I don't care!
Again The scriptures tell you word for word I do not make it up.. I post the scriptures you are forced to reject as a lie to believe your church established by Satan!
Satan does NOT want you to believe the word of God so he came out with the "New Word Translation"!
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[Dogknox20]

All men are SINNERS, that is true. Glad you know that!!

.
Scriptures...
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus gave his Church the authority to forgive sins... AND...

YoursTrue and the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is full to the rafters with sinners! We need salvation, we come to the Holy Bride to be cleansed & nourished..

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

 

[Brian2]

I thought you said that about the gods of the nations and YHWH. I agreed with you. So what do you think then are the gods of the nations and YHWH?

The Gods of the nations are false Gods and YHWH is the true God and in the Bible the Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH and the Spirit is YHWH.
That the Spirit is YHWH can be seen most easily in the New World Translation at 2Cor 3:17 where "Lord" is translated "Jehovah" wrongly of course because the WT no doubt did not want people to see that Jesus is the Spirit, but in doing so they have made Jehovah the Spirit.
But of course we can see that the Spirit is YHWH in other places also.
That Jesus is YHWH can be seen in many places also.
You can ask me about them if you want but usually JWs ignore those places and don't or can't show that they do not say that Jesus is YHWH.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Gods of the nations are false Gods and YHWH is the true God and in the Bible the Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH and the Spirit is YHWH.
That the Spirit is YHWH can be seen most easily in the New World Translation at 2Cor 3:17 where "Lord" is translated "Jehovah" wrongly of course because the WT no doubt did not want people to see that Jesus is the Spirit, but in doing so they have made Jehovah the Spirit.
But of course we can see that the Spirit is YHWH in other places also.
That Jesus is YHWH can be seen in many places also.
You can ask me about them if you want but usually JWs ignore those places and don't or can't show that they do not say that Jesus is YHWH.

In order for me to delve into these questions, I'd have to see the scriptural references for your points above. Thank you. Maybe you can go through each point you make and give a scriptural assertion of that. Thanks. And where we disagree, we disagree, ok?

 

[YoursTrue]

.
I don't inquire of the dead!
YoursTrue The scriptures tell you word for word ...Saul called up the soul of Samuel. Samuel answered the question Saul posed! Samuel was conscience he talked he answered!! HOW? I don't care!
Again The scriptures tell you word for word I do not make it up.. I post the scriptures you are forced to reject as a lie to believe your church established by Satan!
Satan does NOT want you to believe the word of God so he came out with the "New Word Translation"!
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

You should care 'how.' Also, necromancers have been "calling up" the spirits of the dead for a long time, and some believe what they hear. To consult with a witch (spirit medium) is forbidden by the true God. Necromancy is forbidden by God, but -- people like Saul will do it anyway. He already was condemned by God. He didn't go to God, he went to someone who knew she could be killed under the Law of God. He went to someone disapproved by God. Not all Catholic theologians believe Saul saw Samuel in realtime, real life, more or less. But we all believe or interpret as we want. If you want to believe that Saul recognized Samuel the prophet, your choice.
"There must never be anyone among you who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire of sacrifice, who practises divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer,
Yahweh your God; it is because of these detestable practices that Yahweh your God is driving out these nations before you. Yahweh your God does not permit you to do this. "
But Saul and the witch did it anyway. Can you imagine the prophet Samuel coming at the witch's asking?