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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 19:13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Those verses do not refer to Jesus. Jesus is not coming back to earth. His Kingdom is not of this world so He cannot be the King of Kings.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
     
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  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Thank you for asking. I will do my best to answer.

    Let me start by saying that I like Bahai's. They are good, decent, moral, peaceful people who want to worship God. In my book that means they are doing what they need to be doing.

    But do all their truth claims pan out? I don't think so, and it begins with their appropriation and misunderstanding of Jewish texts.

    The phenomenon of other groups latching onto the sacred texts of Israel is of extreme interest to me. On the one hand, the texts are inevitably misunderstood, which saddens me. This is largely because they are combined with newer scriptures of these groups which throw everything off balance--it robs our sacred texts of their obvious meaning, and I can't stress this more strongly. On the other hand, in this way, our sacred texts have literally spread to virtually every people on the globe, which you have to admit is approaching the miraculous.

    I am not familiar enough with Baha'i to know the significance of Mt Carmel. But on a deep archetypal level, mountains are spiritually important. A great many peoples have religions that revere a particular mountain(s). The four sacred mountains of the Dinee and the Black Hills of the Lakota immediately come to mind.

    "Zion" is used interchangeably with Jerusalem; I think that Mt. Zion was the original Hill that David's Jerusalem was built upon. However, the most significant mount in Jerusalem is Mt Moriah, on which is the Temple Mount.

    How does 1948 figure for Jews? First, you have to remember, two Jews, three opinions. :) Jews can't even agree if the emergence of the State of Israel is a good thing. There are an awful lot of secular Jews, and also progressive Jews who don't really believe in prophecies and the messiah, etc. But I'm going to answer from a more traditional perspective.

    1. You have to understand that the Land was given to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac in an everlasting covenant. This land belonging to us is unconditional. The promise of the Land is repeated over and over until we finally get there. Now actually living on the land? That's conditional on being in God's good graces. For example, we went into the Babylonian exile because of our idolatry, and the two millennia diaspora because of our extreme hatred for one another. But when the discipline is accomplished and the learning complete, God returns us onto the land, as he did in 1948. And remember that even when we are not living in the Land, it still belongs to us.

    2. In the past such returns have been partial. A lot of Jews remain in diaspora. Right now, almost as many Jews live in the US as in Israel. There is a prophecy that in the messianic age, Jews will return from everywhere to Zion, brought there by the Messiah. Indeed, this is one the things by which we will recognize the Messiah; we know he hasn't come yet because no one has accomplished this yet. On other hand, it is thought that we prepare the way for the coming of the messiah by moving to Israel.
     
    #163 IndigoChild5559, Nov 5, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    It is "David" who will be king (Ezekiel 37:24), and David said the LORD said to my Lord (Matthew 22:44). It is not your Tehran based messiah who will rule with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). Iran (Elam) and their bow will suffer coming consequences (Jeremiah 49:35-37)

    New American Standard Bible Matthew 22:44
    'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?
     
    #164 2ndpillar, Nov 6, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  5. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    i haven't finished reading the entire thread... but i think rashi reports isaiah 7:14 refers to isaiah's own wife
     
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  6. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    note: in isaiah 7:14 the hebrew word that is translated as "bearing a child" is harah, a feminine mountain
     
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  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Aaaah!
     
  8. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    almah is also aramaic translated as "everlasting". daniel 2:20.

    edit: ... and kaddish
     
    #168 DustyFeet, Nov 6, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  9. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    could be a stretch... but the rashi is starting to "make sense". the sign is an everlasting feminine mountain: a female prophet, Isaiah's wife. the rashi continues in this additional note is relating to the name "emanu ail" (transliterated from the hebrew. the child's name, it is actually 2 words in the hebrew).

    " ... Immanuel: [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. "

    edited to include more of the rashi... sorry
     
  10. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    just for clairity, i hope it's not a bother. here's the entire rashi as I'm seeing it. it's on isaiah 7:14.

    "
    the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign: He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.

    is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”

    the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.

    and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her.

    Immanuel: [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.
    "
     
  11. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    those Aramaic words are spelled differently from the Hebrew word Almah (they end in an aleph עָלְמָא as opposed to the 7:14 which ends in a hey עַלְמָה)
     
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  12. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    thank you, rosends!!!
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are “free” to keep believing that Jesus is going to return, along with all the other Christians.... We all have free will. But believing something is going to happen will not make it happen.

    Speaking of Elam... Jesus was indeed a Messiah and Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain.

    18. Lightning from the East

    I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.” (Micah 5:2)

    Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

    “I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

    The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

    The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

    This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:27)

    The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’. (The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.” (Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said: “When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’” (The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.
    William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    @ 2ndpillar

    In another section of the book entitled Thief in the Night, there are many more prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha’u’lalh which are, as the author notes, sufficient all by themselves to prove the mission of the Messiah of the last days.

    4. The amazing Micah

    In one small Book of the Old Testament, I found a series of successive clues. They traced the history of the Messiah from1 Zechariah 4:6 beginning to end. All by themselves, they could have been sufficient to prove the mission of the Messiah of the last days. This is why I was tempted to call the prophet who gave them, ‘The Amazing Micah’.

    In almost the first words of his first chapter, Micah says:“For, behold, the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down,and tread upon the high places of the earth.” (Micah 1:3).

    I found that Bahá’u’lláh fulfilled this verse, both symbolically and actually, concerning these ‘high’ places.

    Symbolically: He walked in the land made holy by the feet of Abraham.He was exiled to Israel, a land considered holy by the Jews, Christians and Muslims. He walked where the feet of Christ and the prophets of old had walked.

    Actually: He spent many months in prayer and meditation in the mountains of Kurdistán in ‘Iráq, prior to his public declaration of his mission.In the last years of his life, he walked on the side of Mount Carmel, called the‘mountain of God’, the ‘nest of the prophets’, [and] the ‘snow white place’. There, on that sacred mountain, above the Cave of Elijah, Bahá’u’lláh wrote the words:“Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come!” (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Section XI, p. 16).

    In his next chapter, Micah prophesies as follows:“I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together … as the flock in the midst of their fold …” (Micah 2:12). I had already learned that this prophecy began its fulfilment in 1844, the exact year of the beginning of Bahá’u’lláh’s Faith. In 1844 the Edict of Toleration was signed, permitting the descendants of Jacob to return to Israel with freedom and security after twelve centuries of separation.

    Following the appearance of Bahá’u’lláh himself in the land of Israel, the Jews began to return in greater numbers to the Holy Land, until, in the year 1948, the state of Israel itself was formed. Bahá’u’lláh himself prophesied that this great event would take place in the not too distant future. Carl Alpert, a prolific writer on Zionism, spoke of this prophecy of Bahá’u’lláh. In his article in The Reconstructionist, I found the following: “While still in his Turkish jail in Acre, more than 75 years ago, Bahá’u’lláh wrote: ‘The outcasts of Israel shall gather and create a state that will become the envy and admiration of both their friends and their enemies,and outwardly and spiritually they will attain to such glory that their 2,000 years of abasement will be forgotten.’”(The Reconstructionist, Vol. XXI, 20 April 1955).

    To return to Micah, there can be no doubt that he is speaking of the second coming of Christ, and not the first. For he continues his prophecy, saying that it will take place in the last days:“But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.” (Micah 4:1). I visited the shrine where the herald of Bahá’u’lláh’s Faith is entombed on the side of Mount Carmel in Israel. I also visited the world administrative centre of his Faith that is established on the side of this same mountain. I was an eye-witness to the crowds that ‘flow unto it’ every day. While investigating the history of this area, in order to complete this book, I witnessed a throng of nearly two thousand people flow in and out of these sacred places in less than three hours.I learned that it goes on day after day. People come from all parts of the world;in fact, from ‘the ends of earth’.

    In this same chapter, Micah promises that in these last days from this‘house of the Lord’ both the ‘law shall go forth’ as well as the ‘word of the Lord’. When the truth of the Messiah is known, men shall ‘beat their swords into ploughshares’. While in Israel, I learned that the ‘law’ of Bahá’u’lláh now ‘goes forth’ to over 250 countries of the earth where his followers reside; and that in over8,000 centres of the world these followers consider Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings to be the ‘word of the Lord’. [1991—190 countries, 45 territories and about130,000 localities.]I walked on the site of the future Universal House of Justice of Bahá’u’lláh’s Faith, from which the ‘law’ will go ‘forth’ to the National and Local Houses of Justice in all parts of the planet. (The Universal House was elected in 1963.)

    In these chapters, Micah foretells both the first and second coming of Christ, prophesying that He will come first from Bethlehem and second from Assyria. That following the first coming, great suffering and tribulation will fall upon the children of Israel: “Therefore shall Zion for your sake be ploughed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps …”(Micah 3:12).

    In AD 70, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Titus. In AD 132 the Roman Emperor Hadrian crushed the soldiers of Bar Kochba and ploughed under the site of the city.Then, says Micah, of the Messiah from Bethlehem:“Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth; then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.”(Micah 5:3).

    Micah has just pointed out that ‘she which travaileth’ is the daughter of Zion. Where did she bring forth? Micah foretold this, too, saying:“… thou shalt go even to Babylon: there shalt thou be delivered …”(Micah 4:10).

    In that day, Micah says of the Messiah:“… shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.”(Micah 5:4). And Micah foretells that when the Messiah comes the second time, this time from Assyria, it shall bring about the day of the one fold and one shepherd when:“… nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”(Micah 4:3).

    Millennial Bible scholars were well aware of this special promise for Assyria and Elam and Persia, but they could not understand it. Reverend H. Bonar, speaking as one of fourteen Christian clergymen at a special conference on the Second Coming of Christ called Our God Shall Come, declared: “There is another nation reserved for blessing and restoration. Elam. I take these as the overlooked specimens of a certain class of God’s doings in the latter days,when the whole earth is given to Christ for His inheritance.” Bonar accepts these prophecies concerning Assyria, Elam and Persia, although, as he says, “I cannot venture on giving any reason why Elam, or Assyria, should be so especially blessed in the latter days …”(Our God Shall Come, Addresses on the Second Coming of the Lord, Horatius Bonar, 1878).

    Both Christ and Micah gave the same identical signs for this day of His return. Christ said He would come from the East (Assyria) in a day when:“The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men; … they hunt every man his brother with a net.That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire … the best of them is a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge …” (Micah 7:2–4).

    Christ said that this was the day to ‘Watch!’ for the Lord would come as a‘thief’ and ‘break up’ the house of the faithless. Micah said that this hour was:“the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh …” (Micah 7:4).

    Micah then let loose an astonishing downpour of prophecy. He foretold the exact steps by which the Lord would come to Israel, and the things that would befall Him. No detective had a clearer set of clues. Micah promised that:

    1. He would come from Assyria.
    2. He would come from the fortified cities.
    3. He would come from a fortress to a river.
    4. He would come from sea to sea.
    5. He would come from mountain to mountain.
    6. The land to which he came would be desolate.
    7. He would feed his flock in the midst of Mount Carmel.
    8. He would work his wonders for a period equal to the days which the Jews spent coming out of Egypt.

    Frankly, I felt that a fulfilment of these prophecies would be sufficient by itself to establish the authenticity of the Messiah, for in addition to these eight prophesies, Bahá’u’lláh had also fulfilled Micah’s prophesies that the Messiah must:

    1. Come as a Messenger of God and tread upon the high places of the earth.
    2. Appear in the day when the children of Israel would be gathered into their own land.
    3. Establish his house in the mountain.
    4. Draw the people to it in a flow of love.
    5. Send forth His love from that mountain.
    6. Go to Babylon.
    7. Withdraw from the city.
    8. Dwell in the wilderness and the field.
    9. Give birth in Babylon that would redeem the children of Israel.

    No wonder I called him the ‘Amazing Micah’. I now felt that if Bahá’u’lláh also fulfilled these eight additional prophecies, I might indeed becoming to the end of my search. I had to admit that I had already assembled a powerful array of evidence pointing to a solution of The case of the missing millennium.

     
    #174 Trailblazer, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  15. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Isaiah 53 has been a source of debate between the Christians and Jews for centuries. I think both sides make a good case and have no iron in the fire.

    There are many other verses from Isaiah that are important in regards to Messianic expectations and beliefs in Judaism, not just those in chapter 2 and 11.

    Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia
     
  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The text states exactly who it is by name, with enough exegesis there are clear definitions; a case should be presented by data, not by what people believe.

    Both sides miss that the 'Arm' starts in Isaiah 52:10 and then links to Isaiah 53:1, and has additional intertextuality on the word 'Rumor', in Isaiah 53:1 linking with Isaiah 28:9-19.

    If basics were understood, we could deal with how this whole body of text creates a massive case, like a tapestry across the whole of time.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
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  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    what word do you think means "rumor"?
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    H8052
    שׁמוּעה
    shemû‛âh
    BDB Definition:
    1) report, news, rumour
    1a) report, news, tidings
    1b) mention

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  19. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. The word simply means "that which we have heard" from the root "sh-m-ayin". In contemporary Hebrew (legal) usage, the word refers to hearsay. In post biblical Hebrew, it means "as part of an oral tradition"
    "מפי השמועה" מה הכוונה? | שאל את הרב
    מפי השמועה

    In Isaiah 28, the word refers to a message directly from God, not really a rumor so if I were to try connecting the two statements, I would do so through "report" (the message which is heard) and not "rumor." Why not just assume that the word means "report" "message" or "news" in both cases?
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Because in Ezekiel 7:26 the most apparent translation in that is 'rumor upon rumor', and it is referring to Isaiah 28.

    In Isaiah 53:1 having the word 'believe' before 'news', makes it something so far fetched how could any believe it; thus who would have 'believed the rumor' is clearest when understood properly.

    Isaiah 28:9 is expressing that only those God instructs shall understand this Rumor; In Isaiah 28:19 it emphasizes it is like a Riddle to understand it properly.

    A message, news, report isn't something corrupted; this is the Bed of Adultery in Isaiah 28:9-19, which we find in Revelation 2:22; in Isaiah 28:20 it is a 'bed between these posts' (Rumors), and in Isaiah 28:21 it is an 'adulterous' act taking place.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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