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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You said: “So for example: Isaiah 52:10 says it is specifically about Yeshuat Eloheinu (Yeshua Elohim)...”

    Isaiah 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    No, it does not say that at all. That is just what you think it says because you believe Jesus is Lord. But the Lord is God, not Jesus. All of Judaism knows that.

    Everyone seems to think that they know what the Tanakh or the Bible means; but as I tell them, this is logically impossible that all of them are right, because the meanings they assign are different and often contradictory. So who is right?

    There are several possibilities: (1) one person is right and everyone else who disagrees with him is wrong, or (2) one person is wrong and someone else is right, or (3) there is more than one meaning to many scriptures so people all have part of the truth, but nobody has all of the truth.

    How can anyone say the meaning they assign is correct and the other meanings others assign are wrong? The hundred-dollar question is why people think they are uniquely qualified to interpret the Tanakh or the Bible? Even the early Christians did not understand the nature of Jesus, which is why they had to hold councils to decide upon the doctrines of the Church. There are too many different interpretations so nobody can say that only theirs is correct, logically speaking, because they cannot prove that it is correct, nor has anyone been given the authority to interpret. As such, it is just their personal opinion that they are right and others are wrong.

    A lot hangs in the balance. They never even stop to think that if their personal interpretation if wrong that has major implications on their lives and afterlives.

    Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant.

    “Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    El Elyon is the God Most High, and the father of the Lord (YHVH Elohim) (Psalms 89:6, Psalms 29:1); Rabbinic Judaism has been blinded to this understanding (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29).

    Yeshua, and the Prophets stated that they'd rejected the father (Malachi 1:6-9, Malachi 4:4-6), the God Most High (Matthew 11:27); as they no longer recognize the difference between El And Eloh (Isaiah 46:9).

    El (H410) is singular God, and El+h (H430) is a being manifested by God. - Adding h makes something God breathed - like Abram became Abraham, and Sara became Sarah, when blessed by God.
    Another possibility is they're all wrong currently, as they're all not dealing with exegesis properly, and the answer needs far more complexity.
    That was the point of explaining the new name of Christ is the same as mine, and it means exegesis.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #142 wizanda, Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Another possibility is that everyone except the Baha'is are wrong currently, because Baha'u'llah was the Messiah and the Return of Christ.
     
  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Unfortunately tho I like what Baha'u'llah tried to bring; we can show that is wrong:

    The Messiah must bring the Messianic Age; we do not have an Age of Godliness - Wishful thinking doesn't count.

    Christ's return must end the Anti-Christ's Empire, and bring a Kingdom of Peace - We still haven't seen this.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    So you actually believe that with all the ungodliness we have in the world today the Age of Godliness is going to appear overnight? How realistic is that? Jews believe that all the Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah. Christians believe that when Jesus returns on a cloud everything will be transformed instantly. This is literally impossible. This is irrational and illogical. How can any rational human being believe such things?

    Humans are the ones who will build the Kingdom of God on earth. This is going to take a long time. It will take longer if more people do not recognize Baha'u'llah because He revealed the counsels that are necessary to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

    “My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

    Where in the Tanakh or the Bible does it say that it the Messianic Age will come into being within the lifetime of the Messiah or instantaneously as Christians believe? Where do any scriptures set a timeline on the accomplishment of the Messianic prophecies?

    The process of building the Kingdom of God, or the new world order as Baha'is refer to it, is only in its early stages. The old world order has to be torn down before a new world order can rise in its stead. All we have to do is look at American politics to see that the old world order is rapidly disintegrating. Life as we have known it will never be the same again. Such were the predictions that Baha'u'llah made 150 years ago...

    “God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.

    “The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.” “Such shall be its plight,” He, in another connection, has declared, “that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly.” “These fruitless strifes,” He, on the other hand, contemplating the future of mankind, has emphatically prophesied, in the course of His memorable interview with the Persian orientalist, Edward G. Browne, “these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family.” “Soon,” He predicts, “will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.” “After a time,” He also has written, “all the governments on earth will change. Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.” “The whole earth,” He, moreover, has stated, “is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings.” “All nations and kindreds,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá likewise has written, “…will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”

    What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
    The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 116-117
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If we pretend everything in the NT is the truth and really happened, who was Jesus and what was his mission? I think we'd end up with the conclusions that fundamental Christians get. If the gospel writer says that Jesus came across a person with leprosy and healed him, I don't see how that writer meant it to be "symbolic" leprosy. I would think he meant Jesus healed him from a physical disease. If the writer says that Jesus walked on water, I think he meant for it to be believed that Jesus, indeed, walked on water.

    So what if it's all myth and legends? I think it's very possible. But all these myths and legends are what make Jesus so great... so great that Christians made him equal to God. So I don't think the gospel writers, or any of the apostles, or any of the early believers thought anything other than that these things really happened... especially the physical resurrection. Without these things, what did Jesus really do and say? And, if aren't certain. Why make him a "manifestation"? Why not a mythical god/man? And, as Baha'is have shown, Jesus didn't fulfill most of the Messianic prophecies anyway. And, the religion built upon the myths and legends about Jesus is believed to be filled with false doctrines and beliefs.

    The most useless belief is that he was born of a virgin. Only two gospel writers mention it. They aren't consistent in their stories. They weren't eye witnesses. They take the verse from Isaiah out of context and force the meaning of a word that doesn't necessarily mean "virgin" to for sure, to mean she was a virgin. Why? To make Jesus a god/man that, for me, has zero value to the Baha'is. Please, someday read past Isaiah 7:14 and see the rest of what this child was supposed to do. It has nothing to do with the Messiah. When the kid reaches a certain age the kings threatening Israel will be gone. And, assuming there was a kid, he had to get born too. The problem for Christians, and now Baha'is, why wasn't this kid born of a virgin? He's the one that fulfills the rest of the predicted signs?

    Anyway, you're my favorite Baha'i... and I'm not trying to be funny. I mean it in the best way. Tony is a close second with Adrian running in third place.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    As I have said before, I have no idea what the Gospel writers intended, if they really believed what they wrote happened literally or if they were deliberately telling a story meant to be taken metaphorically.
    Maybe we would come to those conclusions that fundamentalist Christians do but we would be wrong because what Abdu'l-Baha said makes much more sense:

    “But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

    The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1

    Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.” 2

    The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.”
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102
    It is the teachings of Jesus that made Him great, like the Sermon on the Mount and all the parables. It is all in the NT mixed in with everything else ... Unfortunately, the actual teachings of Jesus got lost in a morass of Christian doctrines so that is not what most Christians talk about. For the same reason that Baha'u'llah and all the Manifestations were great, Jesus was great... What makes a Prophet great?

    “What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273
    Well, admittedly I have not read all of that. What kid are you talking about, Jesus? Jesus fulfilled some of the OT prophecies but not most of them. Baha'u'llah fulfilled most of them, or they will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age as the result of His coming.
    Thanks... You are one of my favorite posters here too. :)
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    According to the Biblical, Hindu, Zoroastrian text this realm has been taken over by demons, and is down near Hell...

    To believe that a load of demons disguised as humans are going to find peace, is unrealistic according to the religious texts.

    Whereas God can change reality in an instant; as someone who regularly gets miracles that defy a normal linear timeline, I've got no question God can change reality instantly.
    Luke 21:34-35 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. (35) For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth.

    Isaiah 29:5 But the multitude of your foes will be like fine dust, and the multitude of the ruthless ones like chaff that blows away. Yes, it will be in an instant, suddenly.

    Isaiah 30:13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly in an instant.

    Isaiah 13, Isaiah 24, Isaiah 28, Isaiah 34, etc - Mankind is to be put through the fire, which shall happen in a day according to the prophets.

    The Day of the Lord - Wikipedia

    Find the Baha'i statements Anti-Christ, as Yeshua came to set the Snare & Curse to remove the Wicked; whereas you're like that is too farfetched, we should exchange a majority of religious texts globally for Baha'i's views.
    They can believe it, as the text and historical events prophesied have already happened; therefore it is confirmation to those who accept what the prophets stated.

    The difference between what Judaism and Christians accept as fulfilled, is the differences of being worthy to come to the Age of Godliness - Not that either is right tho, both have been set up to go the wrong way on purpose.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #148 wizanda, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Related to this thing about the "Comforter" being Baha'u'llah... is that Baha'is have to explain how in Revelation the "Lamb" is at the center of everything. The "Lamb", you would think, would, without a doubt, be Jesus. But, the Baha'is point out that the word used for "lamb" in Revelation is not the same word used in other places in the NT, therefore, they say, this lamb is not Jesus, but a different lamb. Naturally, this lamb they make into one of their prophets, The Bab, because he was slain just like it says in Revelation. Whereas Jesus was not slain but crucified. Another Christian is researching this out for me, but if you have any comments on it, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    A couple of things I'd like to hear your thoughts on... I think this is the thread I already asked one of them, and that is that the Baha'is don't only need Isaiah to prophecy about Jesus being The Messiah, but they also need Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah to all be part of the Messianic prophecies. Most of the prophecies they use to point to Baha'u'llah. But, if they are right, that all these "manifestation" are "true" Messiahs, then Isaiah has to have prophecies about all of them.

    The second one is that the Baha'is use prophecies that point to Mt. Carmel. But, what about the prophecies that mention "Zion" or "Jerusalem" or even the "Holy Mountain"? The Baha'is have no connection with Jerusalem. They use the Edict of Toleration to prove that the prophecy about returning to Israel was fulfilled in 1848, but was it? How significant was that edict to the Jews? Do you see it as a fulfillment of any prophecy? Thanks.
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 13:11-18 11Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

    Do you have a copy of "Apocalypse Secrets"? If so, could you summarize the explanation given to make the "mark" or "number" of the beast a date? As I recall from another thread the Umayyad dynasty was supposedly this beast. Of course, I didn't see how some Umayyad leaders and then the Abbasid leaders fulfilled these prophecies.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of that book but I plan to order it next time I put in an order for books at Amazon.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You mean according to your interpretation of the Bible.... ALL the disagreements between believers are because of discrepancies in interpretations... As I asked before, who is it that has the authority to interpret the Bible? Why do people think they have the correect interpretation and everyone else is incorrect?
    There is no such thing as a actual demon according to my interpretation of the Bible, and according to the Baha’i Faith. Demons refer to the satanic self, which is the lower selfish nature of man. Those people won’t be the ones establishing peace. It will be the heavenly humans who do that.

    “The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200
    Even if God could change the outward physical reality in an instant, why would God do that? Where does the Bible say that God will do that? I am sure you can find some verses that “you believe” mean that, but I am also sure that there are other ways to interpret those verses. Thus the beat goes on...

    God has never done that in the entire history of mankind so there is no reason to think that God is going to do it now. Baha’is do not believe that the flood was a literal occurrence but rather it was a story that has symbolic meaning.

    And even if God did change the earth, He could not change mankind without overriding their free will? God has never done that either. So to think that God is suddenly going to do things God has never done before is to question the nature of God. God is unchanging so there is no “reason” to think that God is going to change the way He relates to humans.

    But that does not mean that God cannot cause things to happen because God has all power.

    “The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

    “We have a fixed time for you, O peoples. If ye fail, at the appointed hour, to turn towards God, He, verily, will lay violent hold on you, and will cause grievous afflictions to assail you from every direction. How severe, indeed, is the chastisement with which your Lord will then chastise you!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 214
    Everyone reading those verses will interpret them differently depending upon what they already believe. How people interpret verses depends upon what they want to confirm which is the saem as what they believe will happen which is also what they want.

    What is going to happen suddenly? That could refer to anything, but people who want to believe it will be Jesus returning will apply those verses to that event. Myself, I believe they refer to the coming of the Bab, which came on suddenly and changed the course of human history in an instant. The intimation that a new Revelation from God had been revealed to the Bab did all happen in one day. From that time on it the teachings of the Bab spread like wild fire and it attracted the hearts of more than 100,000 people in the span of 6 years.



    “In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13
    The texts do not have to change, but the interpretations of those texts have changed.

    The Bible requires accurate interpretation to be fully understood. The Bible was never fully understood, which is why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.

    That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel:for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

    The Baha’i Faith is the religion that knows what the Bible really means because the "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

    We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand who and what the prophecies in the Bible refer to.
    That is true, but what the prophets stated can be interpreted very differently by different people... This is the issue that nobody seems to want to address because they do not want to let go of their personal interpretations. It is as obvious as the broad side of a barn that interpretations of the same words on a page can differ markedly but it is the ego that stands in the way of seeing how obvious that is. If interpretations did not differ, everyone would believe the same things... this is the PROOF of what I am saying.
    So there you have it, what I have been saying all along. Judaism and Christianity think they know, and you think you know, everyone thinks they ALONE know the truth. Sure, I think I know too but that is because I can SEE what has happened in the world since 1844, it is not a hope of things to come... The fulfillment of the prophecies in the Bible can be confirmed by actual events and geographical locations, yet people still deny that Christ has returned because they don’t like the idea for their own personal reasons.

    Thief in the Night
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There are no prophecies that say that Jesus will return to the actual city of Jerusalem or that He will dwell there. All Christians do is take the verses and place a filter over them to make everything be about Jesus returning, but unless you believe that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, there is no way that Jesus can ever return to earth because dead means dead. But even if Jesus rose from the dead that does not mean that Jesus ascended or that Jesus is going to return to earth.....

    You like my honesty so here it is: I am sick to death of reading Christian websites that say Jesus is going to return. Jesus is not going to return ever. Jesus said so Himself in John 17:4 and John 17:11. Why can't people read?

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are

    Jesus is not King of this world and He is not coming back to rule the world... He said so Himself... Why can't people read?

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    Now, about Zion and the Holy Mountain:

    What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

    June 17, 2015 by Jack Wellman

    What does the word Zion mean according to the Bible? What is “Mount Zion” in particular talking about?

    The Word Zion

    The “Zion” itself simple means “fortification” like a citadel but it’s also another name that is used for Jerusalem or the City of David and is associated with God and is sometimes referred to as “the City of God.” The word Zion has a broad spectrum of meaning that is greater than any one single entity or identity because Zion was also known as the seat of power for the kingdom of Israel but also for the Kingdom of God. We know that it is a place that God loves and cares deeply about because the city is also associated with God’s chosen people, Israel. Zion is used interchangeably with Jerusalem in many Scriptures like in Isaiah 52:1-2 so any time you see the word Zion used it is referring to Jerusalem, the City of God, the City of David, the people or nation of Israel or the people of God and sometimes typifies God’s place of rule or where His presence resides like in Jeremiah 31:6 where he writes “Arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the Lord our God.”

    Mount Zion’s Meaning

    The word “mount” is simply a shortened meaning of mountain and mountains often refer to governments or nations but often is referred to in Scripture as “the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel” (Isaiah 30:29b). In the case of Mount Zion it is representative of the Kingdom of God where we read in Hebrews 12:22 that “you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.” That is where it is said “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all” (Heb 12:23) will be at and it looks ahead to the New Jerusalem that will descend out of heaven (Rev 21:10-26).
    What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

    Jerusalem refers to the City of God, it does not refer to the old city of Jerusalem. What is the City of God?

    “They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

    That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

    Jerusalem refers to the New Jerusalem, not to the old city of Jerusalem.

    “The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
     
  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I would have spent ten or so bucks for one, but wasn't it like forty bucks?
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    New American Standard Bible (Zechariah 14:16 -17)
    16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, the rain will not fall on them.…
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Here's a few of several verses that mention Jesus by name as the one coming. And this doesn't include the gospels. So he might be dead to you and me, but the NT writers thought he was alive and that he, Jesus, was returning
    Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
    1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
    1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
    2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    Revelation 22:20-21 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Jesus is not the Lord of Hosts. Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts.

    “The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The paperback is 15 for used and 19 for new... I will probably get a new one.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But please note that these gospel writers were speaking for those who were awaiting Jesus and supplicating Jesus to return, because they "believed" Jesus was coming back. The verses are not Jesus saying that Jesus is coming back. Such verses are nowhere to be found in the NT. Jesus never said He was coming back to earth. Jesus said He would send the Comforter and that we would see the Son of man coming on the clouds, and that refers to Baha'u'llah. Christians mistakenly believe those verses refer to the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
    How sad, how sad indeed... Sorry, my patience with this fantasy of the same Jesus returning has worn thin. :(
     
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