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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    That is not true. Isaiah 13:12 reads "I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold". Isaiah 24:6 & 21-22 "few men are left" and the "kings" "punished". Revelation 9:18 reveals that only "a third of mankind was killed" by fire, smoke and brimstone. There were survivors who did not "repent" (Revelation 9:21). And per Revelation 22:14-15, the "murderers and idolaters" are "outside" the "gates". The surviving nations (Zechariah 14:16) will be ruled with a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15). As for the remaining, with the "mark of the beast", apparently they are killed by a "sword" out of the "mouth of him who sat upon the horse". Now as for the "peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet" (Zechariah 14:12).
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The 30 pieces of silver was with respect to Judas Iscariot, an apostle chosen by Yeshua to fulfill Zechariah 11:12-13 along side two other shepherds, who died in the same month/generation (Zechariah 11:8), those two being Peter and Paul, both taken to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7). That "flock" being the "Christians" who hang on to Peter (Isaiah 22:15-25) and follow the false prophet Paul (Matthew 7:15-23). Jeremiah 25 is about the "shepherds", and "masters of the flock", such as Peter and his heir, who did not feed, care, or tend the flock (Zechariah 11:17) & (Ezekiel 34), who shall not "escape" (Jeremiah 25:36)

    As for what is bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, that would be an "adulteress" (Christian Church), "for many days", until the "sons of Israel shall return" (Hosea 3)
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The 7th Seal, Trumpet, & Bowl is the coming of the Kingdom which causes Fire (Revelation 18:8) & Brimstone (Revelation 14:10, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10-15 ) to remove all that is not Holy, so only the Saints remain after.

    Think the bit missing is that the 'wrath' Biblically is the Day of the Lord, which is the removal of all that does iniquity...

    The Bowls and Trumpets are what mankind does because it is satanic at the Battle of Armageddon; so God steps in, to remove those destroying the earth (Revelation 11:18).

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there were none that were understood as such by Jews.
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe one could make a case for the return of Jews to Israel when it became a nation again but the context doesn't really allow it.

    Isa. 60:14 The sons of those who afflicted you
    shall come bending low to you,
    and all who despised you
    shall bow down at your feet;

    I believe the enemies of Israel are still afflicting her and not bowing down to her.
     
    #285 Muffled, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the Bab and B man have nothing to with the Jewish Messiah.

    I believe the B man does not fit that definition of a manifestation.
     
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That's right. Because there were none.
     
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  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm not really sure I understand how you are addressing my point.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Shepherds is a specific reference used by Jeremiah 10:21-22 about the Brutish Leaders; in Zechariah 11:8 the 3 Shepherds over the flock of Israel is the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites, who hated their Lord (Yeshua).

    Fair enough John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) were all Pharisees; with the Foolish Shepherds (Rabbinic Judaism) at the end of Zechariah 11:15-17 being in control of the flock, until the coming of the Messianic Age in Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23.
    The flock was a Tribe called Israel, who would 'reign with God', and within it a Tribe called Judah, who 'praised the Lord'...

    Christians are Pharisees, who follow Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros); they're not the flock of Yeshua's, only those who have his new name written on their foreheads are, as they've lived his teachings.

    To define the difference, Yeshua taught a living Gospel of doing good works, and becoming light within... Whereas they taught a dead Gospel about jesus coming to die.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    It can be questioned that a Messiah is specified in Daniel 9:26, Isaiah 52:14 (In the Dead Sea Scrolls there is an additional yod on the word blemished, making it 'anointed') being put to death, and opening up multiple contextual events, that state a specific time period after, before its closure at the Messianic Age.

    So a specific case is Isaiah 28:9-21 Bed of Adultery, where it shall be like Perazim and Gibeon at its closure (God will destroy mankind with Holy Fire)...

    Thus when the Chief Corner Stone of Psalm 118 is placed in the middle of the Bed of Adultery (Isaiah 28:16), this is the Lords doing, and when the Messianic Age comes, those who understand this Marvelous Work will say, "Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord".

    Take to pieces Isaiah 28, not to make 'Haste', is part of why a Rumor becomes a Riddle across time, to see who observes properly.

    At the End of Isaiah 28 after the Bed of Adultery, we have the context of the Parable of the Seed Sower (Isaiah 28:24-29)...

    The reference is a time of planting, and a time of harvesting, so literally everything has a sequence of fulfillment; thus why Isaiah 5:19 condemns those who 'Hasten' the day of the Lord.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #290 wizanda, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Your "opinion" makes no sense. Revelation 14:10 & Revelation 20:10 are about the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. Revelation 20:11-15 is about those who have died being judged. That includes the already dead at this time, who miss the first resurrection (Ezekiel 37:12) & (Revelation 20:4). Revelation 19:20 is about those with the "mark of the beast" being kill with the "sword' "from the mouth". The "Battle of Armageddon" is when the LORD gathers the nations against Jerusalem, and goes out to fight (Zechariah 14:1-3) & (Revelation 16:13-19). The LORD uses the demon spirits of the devil, and the dead beast and the dead false prophet to do so. There will be survivors among the nations (Zechariah 14:16), who will be ruled by the Word of God, by means of a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). If they don't follow orders, they will receive no rain (Zechariah 14:18)

    As for those who are lawless, and do iniquity, the tares, the followers of the false prophet, they will "first" be gathered up and thrown into the furnace of fire were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth(Matthew 13:30 & 40-42). Their shepherds will not escape. (Jeremiah 25:34-35) & (Ezekiel 34)


    New American Standard Bible Revelation 14:10
    And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The 3 shepherds were "annihilated" "in one month"/generation (Zechariah 11:8). That can't be said for the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Levites. Matthew 26:9-10 quotes Zechariah 11:12-13 in identifying Judas Iscariot as the 3rd shepherd. The "lost sheep of the house of Israel", your "flock of Israel", have been scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:24) for around 2700 years. The "Levites" are part of the "house of Judah".
     
  13. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    thanks to all 3 of u, muffled, 2ndpillar, and wizanda. ya know, these dustyfeet are pretty clueless on all this stuff. i'm intrigued, but also set in my ways

    so, i'm a little embarrassed, i thought you were going to show me some "math"... :)
     
  14. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    Rev.2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, and the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but the synagogue of Satan.

    Jews = Ioudaios, from Iouda - Iouda 2448 (in the sense of IoudaV - Ioudas 2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.

    Revelation says they're not of Judaea the country.
     
    #294 OtherSheep, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  15. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    And here's the second batch, answered... with numbers added.

    1. If ye will receive... they didn't.
    Mat.11:14 And if ye will receive, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    2. Capernaum vs Bethsaida
    Mat.4:13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
    4:18 And Ἰησοῦς, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
    Jon.1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

    3. preparation of the Passover
    Jon.19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

    4. peace with God, not man
    Mat.10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    Jon.14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    5. But you're right there was no time for travel, in the land called Israel today.

    Maps of New Testament story

    "A trained walker can walk a 26.2-mile marathon in eight hours or less, or walk 20 to 30 miles in a day."
    How Far Could You Walk in 8 Hours?
     
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  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Matthew 27:1-10 identifies that the prophecy is fulfilled by Judas (Judah) paying the 30 pieces of silver...

    Yeshua spoke against the Shepherds over the people before the 2nd Temple Destruction, and before the Diaspora or the Curse (Deuteronomy 28); where they eat each others flesh (Zechariah 11:9, Deuteronomy 28:53-55) at the siege by the Romans.

    Yeshua didn't speak against John, Paul, and Simon; tho he warned about their false teachings coming after his (literally).
    The Levites had become the Lawyers (G3544); who held themselves in high esteem above the people, whilst blocking the knowledge (Luke 11:46, Luke 11:52).

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #296 wizanda, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the quote was from Matthew 27:9-10, and the 3rd shepherd of Zechariah 11:8 was not fulfilled by the Sadducees, or the Levites, but by Judas Iscariot.

    Yeshua called Simon a "stumbling block to me", and "Satan" (Matthew 16:23). He also warned about the "false prophets" in "sheep's clothing, which would be as "ravenous wolves" (Genesis 49:27). Paul would be the foremost of these.(1 Timothy 15:1). Peter, the "stumbling block" and Paul, the one committing lawlessness were to be outed at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:40-41). Until that time, the disciples were ordered to leave them alone (Matthew 13:28-29). We are now at the "end of the age", and neither Peter, his heir, the pope, nor Paul have any protection. Neither do their followers. For the "little ones", many scattered among the nations, apparently 1/3 will come through the "fire" alive.(Zechariah 13:9). For the "nations", those that survive will make their confession (Jeremiah 16:19), and refute the "falsehoods" of their "fathers" and say "the LORD is my God" (Hosea 2:23)
     
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  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The name Israel was passed from Jacob, to Joseph, to Ephraim. Ephraim mostly refers now to the "house of Israel". There is no "tribe of Israel" at this time. You will have the sons of Israel/Jacob, when the house of Judah and the house of Israel are reunited as the (whole house of Israel)(Ezekiel 37:15-23), after the resurrection of the dead (Ezekiel 37:11-12) The "flock" of Zechariah 11:7 refers to the flock of the two "staffs", "Favor"/Paul, and Cords/Peter. That would later be the church of Rome, instituted by the beast with two horns like a lamb, the Roman emperor Constantine, built on the foundation laid by the two staffs, Peter and Paul the two Christlike leaders like two horns like a lamb. The time period of the planting of their tare seed, would be the generation of the 3rd shepherd, Judas Iscariot. To be fair, Peter was simply the "worthless shepherd" who would not feed, care or tend the sheep. (Zechariah 11:16-17). His heir, the pope simply carries on the tradition. But Peter did further the rift between Ephraim/Israel and Judah by way of his dream (Zechariah 11:14), of eating unclean food. At the time of Judas Iscariot, Ephraim/Israel was referred to as the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" who have yet to be gathered (Ezekiel 36:24). Judas Iscariot was a Jew, of the house of Judah, and not of Ephraim, the house of Israel.
     
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  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Jacob/Israel's name became synonymous with the entire Children of Israel. That includes all 12 tribes plus Levi.

    Ephraim is gone, what little of those refugees that came down from the North to the Southern Kingdom of Judah intermarried. In Babylon, and refugees that were of Ephraim were referred to as Jews, same as everyone else, because they came from the Kingdom of Judah.

    The Children of Israel that are still around today are called Jews. Not the English. Not Christians. Not people who feel Jewish in their hearts.
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah sure, and pigs fly when you throw them out of airplanes. The "house of Israel" was "scattered" among the "nations" (Ezekiel 36:17-19), and have not been "taken" "from the nations" (Ezekiel 36:24), and given a "new heart" and a "new spirit" (Ezekiel 36:24-37) to "observe all My ordinances". Ephraim and Judah will be "healed", and revived on the 3rd day, after they have "acknowledged their guilt" (Hosea 5:15 - 6:2)
     
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