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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I see. I guess that within your understanding, that makes sense. I just don't see what God says as a rumor or anything corrupted. Isaiah 28:9 parallels the report with instruction/teaching as the subject of the question. Verse 19 talks about something that has to be understood, not believed. Rumors are about belief, not understanding. So once "rumor" doesn't work for me in 28, I see no reason to connect it to anything else. Simple intertextuality by virtue of spelling doesn't fit here.
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isaiah 28:16 says those who believe shall spend time to understand it properly.
    The Arm being revealed in Isaiah 53:1 can be read that it expands the context of the Rumor.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    There is no "riddle". It is just that those who "rule" in Jerusalem (Isaiah 28:14), the Pharisees, will not understand, and one of them will make their own "covenant", a "covenant with death" (Isaiah 28:15), were they think they will not die, but be changed from corruptible to incorruptible, in the twinkling of an eye, and that covenant, "shall not stand" (Isaiah 28:18).
     
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  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Christians may argue. It doesn't mean they can answer Jewish points.
     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. This doesn't seem to reflect "rumor" but "report." Thank you.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    that is certainly how you understand this section. Jews see it as a reference to the exile of the 10 tribes and to idolatry. The malbim sees the first 5 verses as about the 10 tribes and then the focus shifting to the kingdom of Judah which was to be exiled as well.
     
  7. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Well, Isaiah 28:2-3 refers to Ephraim as "trodden under foot", whereas Isaiah 28:5-6, refers to "in that day" when the "LORD of hosts will become beautiful crown to the "remnant of His people". Ephraim was representative of the norther tribes. Isaiah 28:14 is with respect to the "rulers" of "Jerusalem" which would be the Jewish Pharisees. Isaiah 28 is referring to 3 sets of people. Ephraim, Judah, and the remnant of His people. The bottom line is that the LORD does not continually "harrow the ground" (Isaiah 28:24), and that apparently the harvest is inevitable, which would be also "on that day" (Jeremiah 30:7-8), and called "Jacob's distress", when Jacob will be "chastened justly". "Jacob" would include both "Ephraim" and "Judah".
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I guess I just see 2 sets -- the 2 kingdoms, with the information in 28:14 referring to those who mock the words of the prophet about the southern kingdom. There is etymological context to translate "moshlei" not as "rulers" but as "parable makers".
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You forget that "in that day" (Isaiah 28:5-6), is the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31), whereas there will be "survivors" (Jeremiah 30:7-9) & (Joel 2:32) "in Jerusalem", and "on Mount Zion", and at that time, the "remnant" (Isaiah 28:5), will include Ephraim and Judah (Ezekiel 37:15-28) and they will be ruled by "David" (Jeremiah 30:7-9) & (Ezekiel 37:24). The remnant will not be Judah or Ephraim, but "Israel"/Jacob, a combination of the two. (Ezekiel 37:24)
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is certainly what you believe. It doesn't comport with what Judaism understands about those verses (especially the Joel verses).
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Possibly the misunderstanding with regards to Joel starts with the misunderstanding with regards to Isaiah 28:14, whereas, your "parables makers" (allegorists of this people)/moshlei, the "scoffers", would refer to the Pharisee and the lying "scribes" (Jeremiah 8:8), who "rule this people", and do not understand the "parables" of God, for they "have not ears to hear (Isaiah 6:9), yet they repeat those "parables"/allergies, without "understanding" (Daniel 12:10), because they are apparently numbered among the wicked. Remember, only "one third" will come through the fire (Zechariah 13:8-9), to "become My people".

    New American Standard Bible Isaiah 28:14
    Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers, Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,

    New American Standard Bible Daniel 12:10
    "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
     
  12. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I would say that your misunderstanding does, indeed, start there. The third which will convert in Zech have nothing to do with scribes or Pharisees.
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "two parts", who will be "cut off and perish" (Zechariah 13:8), the "wicked", who do not "understand" (Daniel 12:10), would refer to the Pharisees and scribes (who have apparently lied per Jeremiah 8:8, apparently look to have been targeted. The "third" apparently have come through the fire (Zechariah 13:9). And what in the mind of your teachers is the "covenant with death"? (Isaiah 28:18) What "falsehood" have the "scoffers" made their "refuge"? (Isaiah 28:15)
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The Malbim sees the covenant as one with the kingdom of Assyria. Other commentators see it as a metaphorical covenant with death to protect the people. While the Metzudat David says the scoffers are ones who mock the prophet and his message from God, the Radak points to the leaders of the cities of Judah, specifically:

    אמר כנגד שרי יהודה שהם כמושלים על העם הזה כי אחז המלך לא היה עושה התועבות ההם אם השרים היו מוחים בידו אבל כשהנביא היה מוכיחם ומודיעם הפורענות העתידה לבוא עליהם היו מתלוצצים ואומרים כרתנו ברית את מות
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "leaders of the cities of Judah", the allegorists of this people (moshlei), the scoffers (Isaiah 28:14), would be the scribes and the Pharisees. And which "prophet, who purposes to "teach knowledge" (Isaiah8:9) is mocked"? Is it the prophet promised by Moses, which Israel was supposed to listen too? As for Assyria, they were a problem for the house of Israel, not the house of Judah and their home of Judea, at least until Zechariah 14:1-3 & Isaiah 7:17-20. The "covenant with death", was a covenant made with "Sheol"/grave, not Assyria.(Isaiah 28:18). That new "covenant with death", is called the "gospel of Grace", proffered by the false prophet, and Pharisee Paul, and entails an escape from death, whereas his followers would not taste of death. It now has about 2 billion followers, a good portion who have already died.

    Isaiah 7:17-20
    "Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks. "Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.

    Isaiah 10:5
    Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,

    Isaiah 10:12
    So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness."

    Isaiah 11:11

    Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

    Isaiah 11:16

    And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, Just as there was for Israel In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is what you believe.
    That looks to be Isaiah but some commentators point to other prophets who tried to tell the people of their erroneous ways. As the Metzudat David writes, " המלעיגים בדברי הנביא" while the Malbim writes, "אחר כי רצון ה' לנבאות ולהזהיר אתכם גם אם אינכם שומעים"
    Right. This is a prophecy about how that reliance on Assyria won't end well. The Malbim also says it refers to trusting the king of Egypt.
    Yes, you certainly believe that. But a covenant is not made with a grave, but with the bringer of death represented by the concept of the grave. You can have fun trying to connect it with all those things that matter to you. Just don't expect that your assertions will carry any weight with me.
     
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  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You seem to rely on three different sets of teachers/scribes, and yet none of them seem to have the same answers. Either some are wrong, or more likely, all of them are wrong. The "bringer of death" is the transgression of the Law given by God.(Genesis 2:17) The new "covenant with death"/"pact with Sheol" (Isaiah 28:18), "shall not stand", is the covenant given by a different Jewish teacher, the Pharisee Paul, which states that "we have been released from the Law" (Romans 7:6), and shall not taste of death (1 Corinthians 15:52), as previously stated by the serpent in Genesis 3:4.
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I'll turn your statement right back on you. You seem to be relying on a set of texts which are inherently flawed and all wrong. The "bringer of death" is not related to anything in Genesis. The "covenant with death" has nothing to do with the character "Paul" and "Romans" and "Corinthians" are pure invention. See how easy that is?
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Romans and Corinthians are supposedly inventions of a Jewish Pharisee called Paul. While yes, Paul is wrong in what he says, but as a writer/scribe, as with your references, he is apparently turning the Law and the prophets into a lie (Jeremiah 8:8). Put by quoting Paul, one can show him for what he is. In the same vein, your quotes show your teachers undermining each other with variant competing messages. As for Genesis 2:17, with regard to death, one will surely die the day they break God's Commandment. Paul's message is that one can sin (transgress God's commandments), and escape death.

    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Actually, those writings were inventions intended to distinguish Jews from non-Jews, as were the rest of the gospels: Jewish inventions with no theological basis. Your misunderstanding of the verb use in Gen 2:17 is irrelevant.
     
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