Which faith suffers the most?

[Buttons*]

Out of the three Abrahamic faiths, I have noticed that Muslims and Christians mainly get the flack of abuse from posters who are atheistic or agnostic. I notice that atheists get a lot of flack too, but that usually comes from asking hot topics or touchy subjects about a particular phenomenon. (IE Gay Marriage)

So here's my question: Who do you think gets the majority of criticism of the three Abrahamic faiths? I'll have a poll, so we can get some data, but please also explain why you feel that way. (By the way, I also added Bah'i because it is also Abrahamic and Mysticism because there are mystics within the Abrahamic religion.)

I'm just curious. So, try not to take offense to my question

UGH! Ok, I've tried to put up a poll 3 times now to no avail. I'm going to list the options below, and you can check them, rewrite your reply, or get a mod to add the poll. Thank you!

[] Islam
[] Christianity
[] Judaism
[] Bah'i
[] Mysticism of any of the above faiths

 

[Enoch07]

Hmmm that's hard to say. At first I wanted to say Christians. But the Jews and Muslims receive an awful lot of flack as well. Can't speak for any of the other religions one way or the other. Tough call.

 

[Buttons*]

Hmmm that's hard to say. At first I wanted to say Christians. But the Jews and Muslims receive an awful lot of flack as well. Can't speak for any of the other religions one way or the other. Tough call.

It is a really difficult question, and it's totally up for debate. (Hence why it's in the debate section.) My guess would probably be that it's a toss up between Muslims and Christians. Christian denominations tend not to agree with one another, and some even call others herecy! (I knew non-denom Chrisitans who felt Catholocism was blasphemy and not real Christianity.) So there's that little war right there. Then, Christians and Muslims get equal criticsm from atheists, agnostics, and outsiders in general. Muslims also get it from Chrisitans, and Christians get it from Muslims to an equal extent, I think.

I do think, though, that the faiths that are most torn down are Mystic faiths of any denomination. Mystics have in mass numbers been murdered, wiped out (Gnostics) and generally torn down because they don't "fit" with the typical beliefs. Just ask any Christian of Muslim if mystics count, and most will say no. They aren't generally accepted as valid belief systems within the Church. Mainly they're called "the occult" and are left for the slaughter in that regard. So my vote goes to the Mystics.

 

[Panda]

Poll added.

 

[Buttons*]

Poll added.

Thank you my dear, us Pandas must stick together

 

[darkendless]

Christianity, then Islam. They definately bring it upon themselves though.

 

[Buttons*]

Christianity, then Islam. They definately bring it upon themselves though.

How so? That's quite a rude statement if you don't have any reason. I mean, we could easily say that atheists bring criticism upon themselves because the majority tend not to see "spiritual" connection between things - at least for those who assume there is such a thing. We could also say that they scoff at anyone who doesn't see things their way, and in that circumstance, they are no better than any "believer" of any faith. In any case, I think that more of an explanation and less of a judgement would be more appreciated.

 

[darkendless]

How so? That's quite a rude statement if you don't have any reason. I mean, we could easily say that atheists bring criticism upon themselves because the majority tend not to see "spiritual" connection between things - at least for those who assume there is such a thing. We could also say that they scoff at anyone who doesn't see things their way, and in that circumstance, they are no better than any "believer" of any faith. In any case, I think that more of an explanation and less of a judgement would be more appreciated.

Islam: Within Islam there are radical sects bent on bringing terror to the earth. Surely something is wrong, we have over a billion muslims who are great people, a few thousand giving the rest a bad name. Sadly the world does not understand the difference between mainstream Islam and radical Islam which has been associated with terrorism a lot lately.

Christianity: They've shot themselves in the foot recently over the homosexuality issue. They've brought a lot of anger upon themselves from what others (including me) percieve to be an injustice. We're entitled to our opinions just as they are but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to criticise their dogma. Its been a few hundred years since you could get a sword between the ribs for doing it.

 

[Buttons*]

Islam: Within Islam there are radical sects bent on bringing terror to the earth. Surely something is wrong, we have over a billion muslims who are great people, a few thousand giving the rest a bad name. Sadly the world does not understand the difference between mainstream Islam and radical Islam which has been associated with terrorism a lot lately.

But do you think it's fair to say that a few bad radicals have ruined the faith for everyone? I don't think the rest of the faith deserves hostility just because of a few nutjobs.

Christianity: They've shot themselves in the foot recently over the homosexuality issue. They've brought a lot of anger upon themselves from what others (including me) percieve to be an injustice. We're entitled to our opinions just as they are but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to criticise their dogma. Its been a few hundred years since you could get a sword between the ribs for doing it.

Some radical Christians, similar to radical Muslims, do act in ways that harm others, but the sins of the few do not null the goodness of the many. Not every Christian wants to see Gays thrown in jail or worse simply because of their orientation. You can criticise the dogma all you want, but saying that Christians deserve it is just as bad as the minority of Christians saying that Gays deserve to burn in hell.

I don't think that all should be punished because a few jerks believed certain things and used it as a scapegoat. Hell, the radicals of every faith aren't even really of that faith in my opinion. There have been some ultra crazy Atheists too, but all of Atheism shouldn't suffer because of some nutjobs. I don't think that's a fair call.

On RF, it's commonly the case that many theists are even set up by atheists in ways that when a theist states their opinion, an atheist will try to tear them down and call them ignorant. Everyone knows that provokative questions on the level of Gay marriage are going to have differing answers and opinions, but not one seems to be at peace with that. We keep making the same thread over and over again until some theists see the light and agree or everyone gets upset, calls the theists ignorant, and is happy that they know better than some ignorant theist. I don't think that's Christianity or Islam bringing suffering upon themselves, I think that is other people trying to either forcefully debate theists into being educated enough to believe what they do, or just to slam someone's beliefs. It's just one instance that seems rampant on here.

Anyway, you've said your peace, and you've given your reasons. While I disagree, the point is that in your opinion, Islam and Christianity get the worst in terms of suffering.

 

[darkendless]

But do you think it's fair to say that a few bad radicals have ruined the faith for everyone? I don't think the rest of the faith deserves hostility just because of a few nutjobs.


Some radical Christians, similar to radical Muslims, do act in ways that harm others, but the sins of the few do not null the goodness of the many. Not every Christian wants to see Gays thrown in jail or worse simply because of their orientation. You can criticise the dogma all you want, but saying that Christians deserve it is just as bad as the minority of Christians saying that Gays deserve to burn in hell.

I don't think that all should be punished because a few jerks believed certain things and used it as a scapegoat. Hell, the radicals of every faith aren't even really of that faith in my opinion. There have been some ultra crazy Atheists too, but all of Atheism shouldn't suffer because of some nutjobs. I don't think that's a fair call.

Anyway, you've said your peace, and you've given your reasons. While I disagree, the point is that in your opinion, Islam and Christianity get the worst in terms of suffering.

Im just speaking Generally. A lot of kids in my degree at uni laugh and make bomb jokes every time a muslim woman walks into the room. Same with Hindu's, Jew's, pretty much everyone cops it. Since Homosexuality is a bit of a non-issue here, unless you're a Christian or an "undisclosed religion," watch out.

Personally i don't consider atheism a faith, so it is under no pressure to control its flock, unlike Islam or Christianity. I think its the responsibility of the respective clergy to control their flock. These people weren't born with hatred, they learn't it from somewhere. The clergy have to take some responsibility for what their words create. To provide an example, how would you account for the members of Westboro Baptist church who run around with signs saying God Hates ****? Are they not real Christians?

In regards to a laymen, how are they meant to know who's being radical and who's not? Are we to know if they actually represent the religion they claim to be a part of?

 

[Seven]

After a fair bit of thought, I went for Christianity. Although it's a photo finish between that and Islam. Judaism gets the bronze.
Anyway a little flak's always good. It keeps you on your toes

 

[Buttons*]

Im just speaking Generally. A lot of kids in my degree at uni laugh and make bomb jokes every time a muslim woman walks into the room. Same with Hindu's, Jew's, pretty much everyone cops it. Since Homosexuality is a bit of a non-issue here, unless you're a Christian or an "undisclosed religion," watch out.

That's sort of my point. Do you reckon that the poor Muslim lady that gets bomb jokes thrown her way deserves it?

Personally i don't consider atheism a faith, so it is under no pressure to control its flock, unlike Islam or Christianity. I think its the responsibility of the respective clergy to control their flock. These people weren't born with hatred, they learn't it from somewhere. The clergy have to take some responsibility for what their words create. To provide an example, how would you account for the members of Westboro Baptist church who run around with signs saying God Hates ****? Are they not real Christians?

I don't think anyone is born with hate, and likewise, I have never been to a Church that said "it's ok to hate X type of person for X reason." Have you? In some extreme cases (note, extreme is not the norm) you get instances like the Westboro idiots who claim that God hates gays. No, I don't believe they are real Christians, because they are not adhering to what the Bible teaches. Nowhere does the Bible say "and ye shall hate gays and picket funerals until all see the errors of their ways." Jesus wouldn't have wanted that, so yes, they are extremists who are not a representitive of their supposed "faith."

In regards to a laymen, how are they meant to know who's being radical and who's not? Are we to know if they actually represent the religion they claim to be a part of?

Probably by reasoning, being exposed to other people who are of that faith, or research. One can't claim someone is ignorant without first being educated themselves. At least, that's how I feel.

 

[JMorris]

in the OT it says being gay is wrong, and that homosexuals should be punished. the OT is in the Bible, if the OT is obsolete since we have the NT, then why is it in the bible? i guess we already have that thread

 

[Buttons*]

After a fair bit of thought, I went for Christianity. Although it's a photo finish between that and Islam. Judaism gets the bronze.
Anyway a little flak's always good. It keeps you on your toes

heehee, too right Makes you appreciate what you have.

 

[darkendless]

That's sort of my point. Do you reckon that the poor Muslim lady that gets bomb jokes thrown her way deserves it?

Of course not but radicals within Islam have brought that upon their religion. Their cleric should have been a little more careful. It is not our fault we do not understand real Islam from Fake Islam even though the jokes are poor taste and awfully stereotypical.

I don't think anyone is born with hate, and likewise, I have never been to a Church that said "it's ok to hate X type of person for X reason." Have you? In some extreme cases (note, extreme is not the norm) you get instances like the Westboro idiots who claim that God hates gays. No, I don't believe they are real Christians, because they are not adhering to what the Bible teaches. Nowhere does the Bible say "and ye shall hate gays and picket funerals until all see the errors of their ways." Jesus wouldn't have wanted that, so yes, they are extremists who are not a representitive of their supposed "faith."

In the bible homosexuality is outlawed. If you subtract the fact they were at grave sites, their message is still hate filled. How is their message not the message of the bible? They are vehement in their ways but the message stays the same.

Probably by reasoning, being exposed to other people who are of that faith, or research. One can't claim someone is ignorant without first being educated themselves. At least, that's how I feel.

Most people (including me right now haha, i'm slack) don't have time to waste researching any of that. I live in a pretty multi-cultural environment, but yet my exposure to Islam (without RF) is close to zero. What reason do people have to educate themselves on these things when they're doing just fine without it?

 

[Buttons*]

in the OT it says being gay is wrong, and that homosexuals should be punished. the OT is in the Bible, if the OT is obsolete since we have the NT, then why is it in the bible? i guess we already have that thread

Oh no! Please dont' derail it just yet! It's a baby thread!

Anyway, if you want to try and answer the question, feel free. I still don't think that Christianity is synonymous with the Westboro Baptist Church... Hell, they don't have HALF the numbers that Mormons, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, or Lutherans have.

 

[Buttons*]

Of course not but radicals within Islam have brought that upon their religion. Their cleric should have been a little more careful. It is not our fault we do not understand real Islam from Fake Islam even though the jokes are poor taste and awfully stereotypical.

I think that's grossly unfair. To make such a generality would be to accept things that you don't know. That makes you ignorant. No atheist I've ever known admits to being ignorant. Ignorance is supposedly only for theists

In the bible homosexuality is outlawed. If you subtract the fact they were at grave sites, their message is still hate filled. How is their message not the message of the bible? They are vehement in their ways but the message stays the same.

It is something in the Bible, but it is not the primary message. If you seriously think that the Bible only discussed homosexuality and how to hate people who are, then you've not read it or seriously misinterpreted it. Jesus taught love. The Old Testament, according to Christians, is there so we can see how our relationship has grown with God. (Oh geez, now you're making me sound like a Christian! Naughty!) If you want to gripe about the Old Testament talking about homosexuality, then Judaism deserves the flack for that, not Christianity.

Most people (including me right now haha, i'm slack) don't have time to waste researching any of that. I live in a pretty multi-cultural environment, but yet my exposure to Islam (without RF) is close to zero. What reason do people have to educate themselves on these things when they're doing just fine without it?

Sure, but then don't make ignorant statements about the beliefs you know nothing about. If you don't want to educate yourself, you don't have to, but then you don't really have the right to tear someone else down for being "ignorant" when you yourself are claiming "ignorance" of the true belief. Get my drift?

 

[JMorris]

Oh no! Please dont' derail it just yet! It's a baby thread!

Anyway, if you want to try and answer the question, feel free. I still don't think that Christianity is synonymous with the Westboro Baptist Church... Hell, they don't have HALF the numbers that Mormons, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, or Lutherans have.

agreed, specially after coming here, i know that not all christians hate gays, or think their sinning. but how does a person like that reconcile christianity with their contradictory beliefs? i dont like revisionism. in christianity, homosexuality is a sin, and homosexuals should be shunned, so if you want to be a christian, then thats what you should believe. if you dont, then i dont know what you should do..... create a different religion around jesus?

 

[Buttons*]

agreed, specially after coming here, i know that not all christians hate gays, or think their sinning. but how does a person like that reconcile christianity with their contradictory beliefs? i dont like revisionism. in christianity, homosexuality is a sin, and homosexuals should be shunned, so if you want to be a christian, then thats what you should believe. if you dont, then i dont know what you should do..... create a different religion around jesus?

True Well, it's hard! I mean, imagine that you truly believe that the Bible is the word of God. Jesus commands us to love everyone, and to stay away from personal sinning. Most Chrisitans will end up saying "I don't hate the sinner, for we are all sinners, but I hate the sin itself." In any case this may be correct or not, but it seems that we're not happy with Christian opinion when it comes to controversial topics. We're not happy to let them go on disliking the sin, and calling those who don't follow the word "sinners." So, I think they tend to get set up just to be called idiots by the vast majority of onlookers.

But many denominations sort of do just that - they create a Jesus centric faith. It's a little weird, because then you're asking "well, how does the entire Bible fit in then?" But that's just how diversity works in this case. It's not easily reconcilable, but that's how it is.

 

[Kathryn]

I see Christians on this site constantly ridiculed. And as for the homosexuality issue, I have YET to see a Christian on this site say that any homosexuals should be thrown in jail or discriminated against. But the mere fact that many Christians believe that sex outside of marriage (which they define as between a man and a woman), including homosexual sex, is wrong, seems to infuriate people. It doesn't seem to matter one bit that these same Christians are OPPOSED to discriminating TREATMENT of gays. Just the simple fact that their belief system teaches that sex outside of marriage is wrong sets off a firestorm of ridicule.

I think it's a case of reverse discrimination myself.

As for the Muslims on this site, I hate to say it, but I don't see a lot of clear, intellectual posts from that community. I also don't see a lot of interaction when it comes to serious study of faith, ancient texts, and comparative religion. If most of the posts are about Sharia law, then the general concept of Muslims here is very limited, and limited to an inflammatory topic.

Of course, I also tend to skim past Muslim topics because usually the OP itself doesn't grab me, so I could be wrong about this impression.

And I could have missed some really stupid responses from Christians on the topic of gay rights also - just reporting what I've seen here so far.