Which evolved first, the skull or the brain?

[Polymath257]

No for us it wouldn't be perfect to walk on 4



No, for us it wouldn't be perfect



No, for us it wouldn't be perfect.



Even though it isn't that significant but as usual the atheists just want to prove that
humans were made by the unconscious stones, try and try silly excuses
Human eye can see 'invisible' infrared light


We don't need to hear the ultrasound, so still our ears are perfect for us.



Make a better human, you're smarter than the stones of the nature.

So, your answers are all of the form 'they aren't perfect, but they work for us'. That isn't perfection.

 

[Gridiron Man]

The human skull doesn't begin to harden until after the brain has stopped growing to ensure a proper fit. Any genetic mutation that would result in the skull either hardening prematurely or continuing growing after the brain has stopped growing would almost certainly result in death. Thus such a negative genetic mutation is rarely if ever passed on. It is only those genes that enable a skull to stop growing and harden once the brain has stopped growing that get passed along to offspring.

All this and more had to happen simultaneously.
Mutation for the brain to grow larger
Mutations for the skull to grow larger
Mutations for more neuro connections
Mutations for more blood vessels

And that's just the tip of all that had to happen simultaneously.

By the way, using CT scans of 100 men and women researchers discovered that the bones in the human skull continue to grow as people age. The forehead moves forward while the cheek bones move backward. As the bones move, the overlying muscle and skin also move, subtly changing the shape of the face.

Duke Magazine-Cranium Changes-January/February 2008-Gazette

 

[Subduction Zone]

All this and more had to happen simultaneously.
Mutation for the brain to grow larger
Mutations for the skull to grow larger
Mutations for more neuro connections
Mutations for more blood vessels

And that's just the tip of all that had to happen simultaneously.

By the way, using CT scans of 100 men and women researchers discovered that the bones in the human skull continue to grow as people age. The forehead moves forward while the cheek bones move backward. As the bones move, the overlying muscle and skin also move, subtly changing the shape of the face.

Duke Magazine-Cranium Changes-January/February 2008-Gazette

Not simultaneously. The changes will be small so either could occur, they do not even necessarily need to alternate. The brain could grow slightly in a few mutations and then the skull could grow in a few. If you are trying to build an odds argument those usually have false premises to them that make them very easy to refute. Unless you can prove that they would have to occur simultaneously you do not have a valid point.

 

[Bear Wild]

Human evolved with bigger skull that can be better deformed and allowing for the brain to get bigger,
compared to other primates.

Did the skull evolved first to get bigger and next the brain?
Did the brain evolved first to grow bigger then next the skull?
Did both evolved simultaneously؟

Do you think that both were designed to be fixed in place or it just happened
that both evolved simultaneously and it was perfect?

This is easy to explain if you understand evolution. If a larger brain is selected for then it must because it gives that organism a reproductive advantage then the brain gets larger. Since all skull sizes are not the same then those organisms with a large enough skull will have sufficient spaces to allow for the changes and thus will have the reproductive advantage of an organism that the brain is restricted. In other words they are independent and yet connected because of the mechanisms of evolution.
Just because it is a complex process does not mean it does not work since we have living proof it does work.
Also nothing is ever perfect. There is clear variation in human brain sizes and skull sizes. If a perfect creator created the perfect design there would not be any variation would their?

 

[QuestioningMind]

All this and more had to happen simultaneously.
Mutation for the brain to grow larger
Mutations for the skull to grow larger
Mutations for more neuro connections
Mutations for more blood vessels

And that's just the tip of all that had to happen simultaneously.

By the way, using CT scans of 100 men and women researchers discovered that the bones in the human skull continue to grow as people age. The forehead moves forward while the cheek bones move backward. As the bones move, the overlying muscle and skin also move, subtly changing the shape of the face.

Duke Magazine-Cranium Changes-January/February 2008-Gazette

 

[Polymath257]

All this and more had to happen simultaneously.
Mutation for the brain to grow larger
Mutations for the skull to grow larger
Mutations for more neuro connections
Mutations for more blood vessels

And that's just the tip of all that had to happen simultaneously.

By the way, using CT scans of 100 men and women researchers discovered that the bones in the human skull continue to grow as people age. The forehead moves forward while the cheek bones move backward. As the bones move, the overlying muscle and skin also move, subtly changing the shape of the face.

Duke Magazine-Cranium Changes-January/February 2008-Gazette

Why do you think that all of these are separate mutations? It is often the case that a single mutation in a regulatory gene can produce exactly this type of coordinated change.

Once again, the genes tend NOT to code for specific sizes, specific placements, specific connections, etc.

Instead, they code for 'grow until you find this, then stop' or 'branch until you find that, then change growth patterns'. The genes code for overall growth patterns NOT for specifics.

So, as an example, blood vessels are NOT programmed in detail where they will grow. Instead, they are programmed to grow into certain types of tissue until a certain mark is reached. That means that if the tissue grows larger (from use or from a new gene), the blood vessels can still reach everything *even when they have the same code as before*. No new genes are required for blood vessel growth.

 

[QuestioningMind]

All this and more had to happen simultaneously.
Mutation for the brain to grow larger
Mutations for the skull to grow larger
Mutations for more neuro connections
Mutations for more blood vessels

And that's just the tip of all that had to happen simultaneously.

By the way, using CT scans of 100 men and women researchers discovered that the bones in the human skull continue to grow as people age. The forehead moves forward while the cheek bones move backward. As the bones move, the overlying muscle and skin also move, subtly changing the shape of the face.

Duke Magazine-Cranium Changes-January/February 2008-Gazette

I don't agree. It seems obvious that the genetic coding that indicates that the skull for an animal with a brain should not harden prior to the brain stopping its growth and shouldn't continue to grow at a significant rate after the brain has stopped growing had to have been established with the emergence of the first animals with brains and skulls. Any animal that did not have such genetic coding established would never survive to pass on its genetic material.

Now, if at a later date a mutation occurs in a particular species that causes an increase in neural activity and blood vessels and a corresponding increase in the size of the brains, there would be no need for an additional mutation to cause the skulls of this species to increase in size as well. That the skull grows to accommodate the size of the brain would have long been established in their genetic code from their ancestors that first possessed brains and skulls.

The fact that human skulls continue to grow at a measurable rate as people age though interesting, certainly isn't significant. Since obviously the rate of growth isn't enough to prevent the skull from serving its function, to protect the brain long enough for people to survive and pass on their genetic material.

 

[shunyadragon]

If the evolutionists can explain it then that would be great regardless of the reason behind this thread.

Explain what?!?!? Evolution adequately explains the evolution of life and humans. Of course, there remain unanswered questions, but the explanation from the perspective of science is adequate.

 

[FearGod]

This is easy to explain if you understand evolution. If a larger brain is selected for then it must because it gives that organism a reproductive advantage then the brain gets larger. Since all skull sizes are not the same then those organisms with a large enough skull will have sufficient spaces to allow for the changes and thus will have the reproductive advantage of an organism that the brain is restricted. In other words they are independent and yet connected because of the mechanisms of evolution.
Just because it is a complex process does not mean it does not work since we have living proof it does work.
Also nothing is ever perfect. There is clear variation in human brain sizes and skull sizes. If a perfect creator created the perfect design there would not be any variation would their?

Do you really understand that evolution takes millions of years, small brains won't get bigger
in the next direct generation along with a bigger skull and such tiny change won't have any effect in the term of few years, so to work, the skull and the brain with other factors should evolve all together all the long way through millions of years, it isn't if it worked for this generation then it passed for the next generation, it's a journey of millions of years according to the TOE.

 

[Jose Fly]

Because it's a puzzle and I didn't see yet a sensible answer.

I'm just wondering why this particular question stands out to you, since "evolutionists" have explained all sorts of things.

 

[FearGod]

So, your answers are all of the form 'they aren't perfect, but they work for us'. That isn't perfection.

Perfection has no meaning as you want it to be, perfection to you then is to smell like a dog
and to fly and see like an eagle, to run like a horse and to swim like the saifish.

 

[FearGod]

I'm just wondering why this particular question stands out to you, since "evolutionists" have explained all sorts of things.

Not all people can be easily fooled.

 

[Jose Fly]

Not all people can be easily fooled.

What are you talking about?

 

[FearGod]

Explain what?!?!? Evolution adequately explains the evolution of life and humans. Of course, there remain unanswered questions, but the explanation from the perspective of science is adequate.

Who goes against science, your role in this forum that theists are against
science and Bahai love science, eh

 

[FearGod]

What are you talking about?

Silly explanations doesn't work with me, it may work with you and with some others.

 

[Jose Fly]

Silly explanations doesn't work with me, it may work with you and with some others.

What "silly explanations" are you talking about?

 

[Polymath257]

Perfection has no meaning as you want it to be, perfection to you then is to smell like a dog
and to fly and see like an eagle, to run like a horse and to swim like the saifish.

Right. Perfection does not actually exist. Instead, we have different levels of imperfect ability.

 

[FearGod]

Right. Perfection does not actually exist. Instead, we have different levels of imperfect ability.

What we have is perfect for us, gills is perfect for fish , wings is perfect for birds..etc

 

[Polymath257]

Do you really understand that evolution takes millions of years, small brains won't get bigger
in the next direct generation along with a bigger skull and such tiny change won't have any effect in the term of few years, so to work, the skull and the brain with other factors should evolve all together all the long way through millions of years, it isn't if it worked for this generation then it passed for the next generation, it's a journey of millions of years according to the TOE.

Mostly right. Not all changes take millions of years. Mammalian species tend to last a couple of million years. There can be large changes in as little as 50,000 years under some circumstances.

So, yes, any evolutionary pressure for larger brains would work out over many generations, with those of smaller brains dying before reproduction more often than those with larger brains. Those where the brain and skull don't work together tend to die and not pass on their genes.

 

[Polymath257]

What we have is perfect for us, gills is perfect for fish , wings is perfect for birds..etc

No, what we have *works* for us. There is a difference between working and being perfect.