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Featured Which evolved first, the skull or the brain?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by FearGod, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Human evolved with bigger skull that can be better deformed and allowing for the brain to get bigger,
    compared to other primates.

    Did the skull evolved first to get bigger and next the brain?
    Did the brain evolved first to grow bigger then next the skull?
    Did both evolved simultaneously؟

    Do you think that both were designed to be fixed in place or it just happened
    that both evolved simultaneously and it was perfect?
     
    #1 FearGod, Nov 10, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  2. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Skull. We can establish this, by the fact that humans are from the ape family, all of which are mammals.

    All mammals have skulls, which they inherited from reptile ancestors, who in turn inherited the trait from amphibians, and so on.

    So, just like the egg, the skull came first.

    Clearly, the size of the skull varies greatly from mammal species to species.
     
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  3. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    Perfection doesn't exist. If it were a real concept in biology I don't think evolution would need to occur.
     
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  4. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    All three happen with or without the other.that is:
    1. Big brain small skull
    2. Big skull average brain.
    3. Big skull big brain.
    1 is usually fatal. You can survive 2. 3 sometimes makes you more successful sometimes doesn't depending on what about the brain is big and whether the skull is so unusually large that it's difficult to get a date. (Hominid skulls and brains enlarged gradually across many species)
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    The skull and the brain in humans evolved from the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees and it's bigger in humans than in Chimpanzee.

    Repeating the questions regarding the evolution of humans from the common ancestor.

    Did the skull evolved first to get bigger and next the brain?
    Did the brain evolved first to grow bigger then next the skull?
    Did both evolved simultaneously؟

    Do you think that both were designed to be fixed in place or it just happened
    that both evolved simultaneously and it was perfect?
     
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  6. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Since it would make no sense to have a giant skull, with a tiny brain? And, obviously, the brain *must* fit within the skull?

    They both would have changed size at the same time-- we have examples of Ailments among humans, where the brain-skull sizes do not match, and these are always Bad News-- often fatal. (especially if the brain tries to get too big-- fatal. Google Brain Swelling).

    DNA is not a blueprint, in the sense a floor plan tells the builder specific details and measurements to build a house.

    No, DNA is more of a set of directives: begin making an arm bud here. When the arm bud achieves certain attributes, begin a hand-bud here. And so on.

    For example: If you had a way to decode DNA, and read it like a book? No where will you find a way to predict what the fingerprints will turn out to look like, nor can you determine the pattern of the eye's iris or retina. That's not how DNA works.

    Even in Identical Twins: They have identical DNA, but each have unique fingerprints, and other fine measurements-- different from their sibling.

    So the brain grew and the skull also grew at the same time. It would be very difficult to determine which drove which, but it's a safe bet to presume the larger brain drove the size of the skull, rather than the reverse.

    Why? The skull grows to cover the brain, and indeed, is not made of bone until very very late in the fetal development. In fact, infants are born with "soft heads" in that their skulls are incomplete, rather being soft and flexible cartilage instead. This lets the baby exit the birth canal, without destroying the mother.

    Early in human evolution, having a Bigger Brain enabled better Heard Behaviors-- many think the principle key is very complex language. That became possible because of some fine details in the proto-human's throat, nose and mouth.

    Once primitive communication skills appeared, it likely drove a selection for individuals with superior skills, over individuals who's brains could not cope.

    All hypothesis, of course-- we truly do not know exactly, here.
     
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  7. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    They grew bigger together obviously. Their sizes are controlled by the same gene network.
     
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  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    They evolved simultaneously. That said, genetics ususally don't determine things at that level of detail. The genetic instructions tend to be more like 'grow like this until you encounter that, then grow this other way'.

    So, it is quite possible for the skull to have enlarged and the brain simply 'grows into it' at first. Then, genetics can tweak aspects of that growth, if necessary.
     
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  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Easy, both evolved simultaneously.
     
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  10. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Do you think that the brain isn't perfectly set in place?
    If not then what do you think the best design for the brain in the skull should be?
     
  11. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Which was created first, the brain or the skull? It's the same type of question. I've never heard anyone, creationist or someone with a scientific view argue that they existed separately and somehow got together.
     
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  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Evolution does not work for perfection. There are also other factors that influenced the evolution of the skull like, progressively 'set in place' for erect posture..

    I do not believe these questions are meaningful concerning human evolution.
     
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  13. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    If evolution doesn't lead to perfection, then how come that our brains are fit in place?
    Explain as of why, not just saying evolution doesn't make a perfect job, do you think
    that humans aren't smart enough because evolution doesn't work perfectly?
    Do you think that the birds fly because evolution doesn't work perfectly?
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Perfection is an odd contorted human concept in terms of the nature of life including humans, and no things work not because of any goal of perfection, which is over the top ridiculous, but because life evolves functionally to survive.

    Pretty much all nature has imperfections of one sort or another. Human hearing, eye sight, and sense of smell are far from perfect compared to other animals. Our erect posture has advantages for an opportunistic intelligent omnivore, but it has disadvantages for the curvature of the spin that causes health problems. People die from many imperfections of human physiology. Appendicitis kills many in the past, and the organ is not functional anymore a relict of evolution. Compared to other animals our gestation and birth is far from perfect with a high death rate without technology.
     
    #14 shunyadragon, Nov 11, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  15. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Well from my understanding skulls are at first flexible as the fetus develops. With a larger developing brain the skull expands.

    That's why we got so many hat sizes today!
     
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  16. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    I hear very well and enjoy music, I can see very well and enjoy movies, I smell very
    well and like oriental perfumes and enjoy foods.

    I walk for an hour per day and don't complaint of any back pain,

    New research suggest that the appendix may have an important function and not
    as have been thought of being useless.
    Appendix may have important function, new research suggests

    Praise be to God for this wonderful world.
     
  17. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    "Did the brain evolved first to grow bigger then next the skull?
    Did both evolved simultaneously؟
    was perfect?"

    Since we are talking science fiction fantasy, or reality as virtual, and nature as a car engine, (no bible needed, nor related to the bible) the question did the strings evolve first or the body evolve first or did the body and the strings evolve together perfectly? The instrument has no DNA its ancestors are about 1 million years old or so.

    We can discuss the frets next. I mean the 12th fret is in absolute perfect harmonic alignment.

    The really interesting question in scientific evolutionary theory today is was the guitar a hard emegent or soft emegent phenomena?
    lx1e-little-martin.gif
     
    #17 David T, Nov 11, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  18. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Indeed.

    Although, i do find science fiction much more entertaining from an observer perspective. Its like monty python in real time.
     
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  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Still far from perfect. What you have demonstrated is that they are functional and useful for the human world, but of course far from perfect.

    This is leading to a bogus argument for 'Intelligent Design.'
     
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  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    There is a big difference between working perfectly and working 'well enough'. Evolution works 'well enough' and does so by adapting whatever is available to do the job, even if not perfect for that job.

    Our brains fit inside of our skulls because our skulls grow around our brains. Have you ever seen the head of a newborn?The skull plates have not yet merged together. In the development, the skull gets the message on where to grow from the underlying tissues surrounding the brain.
     
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