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Featured Where's the devil?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Theo102, Feb 9, 2020.

  1. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    “The devil's best trick is to persuade you that he does not exist" ~ Charles Baudelaire

    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Revelation 12:9

    Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
    And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
    Matthew 4:8-10

    The Greek word for devil is diablos. From diablos you get Iblis, which is the title of the devil in the Quran.

    And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"
    Quran 17:61

    The meaning of diablos is slanderer.

    Then Satan answered YHWH, and said, Doth Job fear Elohim for nought?
    Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
    But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
    Job 1:9-11

    Job did not curse YHWH, so Job's Satan was a slanderer, the devil. The KJV translates שעירם and שדים as devils.

    And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils[שעירם], after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
    Leviticus 17:7

    Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils[שדים],
    Psalm 106:37

    Job's sacrifices are described immediately before his Satan makes an appearance:

    And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed Elohim in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before YHWH, and Satan came also among them.
    Job 1:5-6

    The word כשדימ is translated by the KJV as Chaldees. Ur means light.

    And he said unto [Abram], I [am] YHWH that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
    Genesis 15:7
     
  2. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Ur means fire. Or means light (spelled the same in Hebrew but pronounced differently).
     
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  3. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, esh is fire.

    And Elohim said, Let there be light[אור]: and there was light[אור].
    Genesis 1:3

    Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire[אש] from YHWH out of heaven;
    Genesis 19:24
     
  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Esh is fire in Hebrew. Ur is a loan word from Aramaic.
     
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  5. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Cite?
     
  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    If the devils best trick is to persuade you he doesn’t exist he can’t have many decent tricks, the FSM has just as decent a trick
     
  7. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Hmm, your bio doesn't say Pastafarian.
     
  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I’m not a Pastafarian, I disbelieve in FSM and the devil
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    OOO! YAY! A Christian gonna try to tell a Jew what they're religion and the Hebrew language actually says! My favorite! :D
    *gets popcorn and lawn chair *
     
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  10. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    What Christian?
     
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Probably you, who have been quoting and supporting the Bible.
     
  12. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Not me. I've also been quoting the Quran.
     
  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I'm a born Hebrew-speaker and I've been learning Jewish Aramaic since I was little, but I'll be happy to pull up official references when I'll be near my computer.
     
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  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    It still stands that you are engaging in a humiliating tradition of Christians, which is telling Jews they got theor own religion, culture, and heritage wrong.
     
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  15. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, it doesn't stand.
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Satan is a real entity. As real as you or me. He's a murderer.

    As for convincing people he doesn't exist. There is some truth to it; but more and more as time goes on; he cares less and less. Because soon they'll set up the antichrist kingdom and satan will be worshiped. Of course he'll make it look like he's the good guy. But people are already willing to believe satan (a fore-known liar) and accuse God of being the liar. When the opposite is true. God never lies and satan is the world's greatest deceiver.

    Human nature hasn't changed since Eve believed satan when satan was really saying God lied.
     
  17. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Satan is only a title. It means adversary, more or less. Someone can be an adversary for a good reason.
     
  18. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Who cares? It's not in the Tanakh. You can say this as many times as you want, but this word is not going to make an appearance anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures. It's meaningless in this context.

    Satan is doing his job here, I'm not sure why this is a big deal.

    Here's that word again. You still have yet to show anyone a devil figure in Tanakh. Satan is here defined as being among the angels at the start of this poem, you even quoted it.

    False gods.

    More false gods.

    Where on earth are you taking any of this from? Job is making atonement on behalf of his sons. The text says he does this all the time. The text is portraying Job to us as wholly righteous, which is why he's the focus. In the beginning it's G-d who points out Job to Satan, not the other way around. G-d then gives Satan the power to test Job's righteousness, but nowhere in the poem is Job even aware of this and takes his challenge to HaShem, not Satan(!) and eventually it's G-d who speaks back, not the angel.

    I've no idea how you're linking these sacrifices to Satan at all.
     
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    That's correct; but he's in it for all the wrong reasons.
     
  20. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Sure it is.

    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    Exodus 20:16

    It doesn't matter, the idea is there.
     
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