Where was God during the Las Vegas shooting?

[Shadow Wolf]

This is HIS creation getting trashed....these are the lives HE created getting taken away by evil madmen. How do we think he feels?

Probably I would imagine it doesn't really bother him much since he lets so much wanton death and destruction go on unabated.

God was there doing billions of things, comforting broken hearted, judging the wicked, showing mercy and patience and many more

And causing the shooter's guns to misfire and jam were not those things he was doing, even though that would have easily prevented the need for comforting and judging.

 

[Grandliseur]

Then I invite you to ask the Jews what their religion says about Ha-Satan/Satan.
Does Judaism Believe in Satan?

People's opinions are as varied as people are themselves. If I quote the Tanakh - shouldn't that be conclusive. I know my OT and NT. Most people who are religious only have opinions, not scriptures in their heads. I have scriptures as opinions. I try not to have my own opinion but simply have a harmonious belief based solely on scripture.

In this manner, I care not what Christian denominations or Jewish ones believe. I simply go by scripture. And, the OT scriptures I gave you seemed conclusive to me.
Each has the right to their own belief and opinion. As do I.

 

[David T]

I always ask this question after something bad happens. It makes me mad when something good happens and everyone praises god for the great things he provides. But then something bad happens and god gave us free will. This just means stuff happens. Good and bad... stuff happens. God isn't controlling anything. If he's real, it makes me mad that he can just sit by and watch this stuff and do nothing about it. I struggle with religion. I've been reading a lot of books by Tim Keller and Case for Christ, and a few others. Once in a while, I'll start feeling like maybe there is something. But then something like Las Vegas or the Church shooting that just happened not too far from where I live here in Tennessee happens and then I ask, where was god? Was he just taking the day off? Does he not care? Or does he just not exist?

Your time would be much better spent spending time in nature reading john Muir. Theology is idiotic ruminations on nothing. Like pretending to play guitar while the stereo plays, complete nonsense.

 

[Deeje]

On your reply does ignorance mean only those who never heard of the Bible, or also include those who did not think Bibles' God was the right one and chose some other religion instead?

A person is judged on what they choose to know and what actions they take as a result.

Once you are informed, there is no longer justification for a plea of ignorance. That is why God always warns people about what he intends to do. (Matthew 24:14) He doesn't force anyone to listen. He will carry out his plans with us or without us.

 

[davidor]

But, that does involve god interfering with the free will of these doctors and EMTs and nurses, or else that would mean god let one person go on a shooting spree without ensuring these "heroes" would be educated in the correct fields to act on that day. If he gave them to us, he had to make sure first that they went to med school.

When someone does such a thing, there is probably something very wrong and disturbed emotionally within them. For all we know, he may have been an undiagnosed psychopath and something sent him over the edge.

When I hear "god gave us free will," I really hear "I don't have a clue and we can't explain it." God gave us free will is a catch all for everything we can't explain.

 

[Deeje]

Probably I would imagine it doesn't really bother him much since he lets so much wanton death and destruction go on unabated.

Handing world rulership over to an opposer would solve all the issues raised in Eden over whose rulership was superior.
There is only one God and one pretender who wants to be one. "The adversary" claimed that God was a liar and that humans would be better off deciding for themselves what was right and wrong......hence you have a whole nation of people who are indoctrinated from birth to worship weapons alongside their claimed Christianity. They do not seem to see a conflict between the two. The blind are leading the blind.

And causing the shooter's guns to misfire and jam were not those things he was doing, even though that would have easily prevented the need for comforting and judging.

If God has allowed the devil world rulership to prove a point, then intervening would be totally counter productive. It would then appear as if satan wasn't such a lousy ruler after all. Allowing it to get as bad as it will, sets precedents for all eternity to come. No one will be able to accuse God of not allowing the devil to prove his superiority in ruling the world. He has proven that he is a complete and dismal failure and those whom he has managed to influence will go down into oblivion with him....deservedly.

 

[Grandliseur]

When I hear "god gave us free will," I really hear "I don't have a clue and we can't explain it." God gave us free will is a catch all for everything we can't explain.

Would you prefer we were automatons without any ability to act with free will. If then there is free will to do good, or do evil, the question is - if you want God to stop evil, that also means that he has no means to judge anyone, neither wicked nor good person may then be judged because they were prevented from acting out their will.

Your dismissal of free will as a reason for evil - shows that things have not been thought through. Otherwise, show us how without free will things can be done so that you may live life? choose a mate, a profession, whether you want to have children or not, etc.

 

[sayak83]

The Bible clearly shows that being ignorant causes a lesser sentence when doing something wrong.

Your question is specific, and I am not the judge. I am sure that many of us living in so many different cultures may be predisposed by reason of culture and upbringing to reject what we shouldn't. Since God is impartial and just, he is sure to take all things into consideration.

Here there is a However! If you have an emergency and need to travel to a foreign country in a hurry, who will get on board most likely? The one who has a ticket already, or the one who shows up to see if there are any vacant seats to be bought?!

Assured salvation is - living in purity as a baptized Christian. Living in willful serious sin as a Christian voids your ticket. What about those who do not accept the Gospel of Christ - because of culture, etc., but live otherwise Biblical righteous lives. I cannot promise anything. It is up in the air as far as I am concerned!
So . . .
I can only give you what I know from scripture.

So, you would accept that living a reasonably good life out of a covenant with Christ does not ensure a reward for leading such a good life while the same kind of life for a person in the covenant does?
What concerns with the Christian (and Muslim) position is that this justice is just an On/Off thing, either you are eternally in hell (or in death) or you are in paradise. In the world I see around me, however, good and bad in people are in a continuous spectra (say Stalin to Gandhi with Joe in the middle). It's not clear to me how fairness can happen in an On/Off justice system in such a reality. Can you make it clearer?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When I hear "god gave us free will," I really hear "I don't have a clue and we can't explain it." God gave us free will is a catch all for everything we can't explain.

Or just uncomfortable with the idea that just maybe god isn't there looking over us. Or to give us some comfort that "of course we won't turn out like that because I'll never choose to behave in such a way."
To me, the entire notion of "free will" is nothing more than a security blanket. We want it, it helps us to feel special and important, that we have power over our lives, but it's such a silly notion to believe in because it's so easy to demonstrate that it just does not exist. Anthropology, biology, and psychology especially are harbingers of demise for the notion of "free will."

 

[sayak83]

A person is judged on what they choose to know and what actions they take as a result.

Once you are informed, there is no longer justification for a plea of ignorance. That is why God always warns people about what he intends to do. (Matthew 24:14) He doesn't force anyone to listen. He will carry out his plans with us or without us.

Right back at you on behalf of the true God, Vishnu and the immutable law of Karma.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Your dismissal of free will as a reason for evil - shows that things have not been thought through. Otherwise, show us how without free will things can be done so that you may live life? choose a mate, a profession, whether you want to have children or not, etc.

Your saying to dismiss free will, demonstrate how we choose things. Clearly we live, and do many different things, and also clearly free will does not exist. For example, I can't just will my Asperger's away and make myself into an entirely new person. I'll always be an Aspie, I'll always be behind par in social skills, I'll never process things emotionally as a neurotypical would, and I'll always have tendencies and inclinations that are common among Aspies. But that's ok. I don't loose any sleep over the fact that reading a book about Asperger's was almost like reading a biography about myself. It's just who I am.

 

[Skwim]

That is why I use more than one translation and if needed go to Strong's and Interlinear translations.

That's the neat part of the Bible, it's so incredibly cherry pickable. No matter what your theology, one can always find something in the Bible to support it.

If the claim that God creates evil is on the table, how God differs from satan must be there also.

Well it is on the table, so where is the distinction from Satan? Or, are you making up the proposition that because the distinction isn't there (at least I haven't seen it) therefore god must not create evil?

.

 

[Grandliseur]

So, you would accept that living a reasonably good life out of a covenant with Christ does not ensure a reward for leading such a good life while the same kind of life for a person in the covenant does?
What concerns with the Christian (and Muslim) position is that this justice is just an On/Off thing, either you are eternally in hell (or in death) or you are in paradise. In the world I see around me, however, good and bad in people are in a continuous spectra (say Stalin to Gandhi with Joe in the middle). It's not clear to me how fairness can happen in an On/Off justice system in such a reality. Can you make it clearer?

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 . . .. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”​

We are told to only judge the ones in our church in a sense and to remove the wicked from among ourselves. Next, it says that God judges those outside. They are judged according to the criteria already given.

We are told to preach the gospel of salvation of Christ to others and that baptism removes sin from the Christian who though a sinner lives as pure a life as is possible for human beings.

If you choose not to become Christian, I have to tell you that you are now in the position of someone not having a ticket for a trip; you might get lucky and find an empty seat, but you may not.

If I tell you that about 90% or more of humanity shall be destroyed in the soon to come tribulations on earth, natural disasters, war (perhaps WWIII) - wouldn't you prefer having a ticket so that if you died, you would be assured of coming into Paradise. While it is clear that some non-Christians will survive, otherwise the earth will be empty in many places, how they will survive is the question?
Thus, all I can tell you that not being a Christian is gambling with one's life.

The judge is Christ. How will he judge?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.​

That is all I have. If you reject Christ now, is that reason for dismissal?! It is at the very least a dangerous road.

 

[BSM1]

Actually, it's not at all important. Just trying to set you straight. That's all.

.

Uhh-huh

 

[Grandliseur]

Your saying to dismiss free will, demonstrate how we choose things. Clearly we live, and do many different things, and also clearly free will does not exist. For example, I can't just will my Asperger's away and make myself into an entirely new person. I'll always be an Aspie, I'll always be behind par in social skills, I'll never process things emotionally as a neurotypical would, and I'll always have tendencies and inclinations that are common among Aspies. But that's ok. I don't loose any sleep over the fact that reading a book about Asperger's was almost like reading a biography about myself. It's just who I am.

You are very right in the fact that free will is extremely limited:
you don't choose

your parents
if they are rich or poor
if you are female or male
if you have birth defects
if you are born into some terrible country (NK)
if you are an imbecile or highly intelligent or just normal
etc.​

You do have the choice

of being a good student
of whether you want coffee or tea, McDonald's or Burgerking, etc.
if you come here and post answers and or questions
etc.​

Thus limited as it is, free will is also true. I am diabetic, now at least 30 years, not my choice. But, I choose to walk about 7km daily. It helps with my problem. PS. My social skills aren't all that great. (Please don't say you agree too much! )

The Bible holds out hope for the curing of all illnesses.

 

[Grandliseur]

Well it is on the table, so where is the distinction from Satan? Or, are you making up the proposition that because the distinction isn't there (at least I haven't seen it) therefore god must not be evil?

.

I had hoped you would give me your take on this. I have to go and will be back tomorrow evening.

 

[Skwim]

I had hoped you would give me your take on this. I have to go and will be back tomorrow evening.

Fine, but where is the distinction from Satan? Or, are you making up the proposition that because the distinction isn't there, god must not create evil?


My take is that god meant what he said: "I . . . create evil."

.

 

[sayak83]

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 . . .. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”​

We are told to only judge the ones in our church in a sense and to remove the wicked from among ourselves. Next, it says that God judges those outside. They are judged according to the criteria already given.

We are told to preach the gospel of salvation of Christ to others and that baptism removes sin from the Christian who though a sinner lives as pure a life as is possible for human beings.

If you choose not to become Christian, I have to tell you that you are now in the position of someone not having a ticket for a trip; you might get lucky and find an empty seat, but you may not.

If I tell you that about 90% or more of humanity shall be destroyed in the soon to come tribulations on earth, natural disasters, war (perhaps WWIII) - wouldn't you prefer having a ticket so that if you died, you would be assured of coming into Paradise. While it is clear that some non-Christians will survive, otherwise the earth will be empty in many places, how they will survive is the question?
Thus, all I can tell you that not being a Christian is gambling with one's life.

The judge is Christ. How will he judge?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.​

That is all I have. If you reject Christ now, is that reason for dismissal?! It is at the very least a dangerous road.

If one is judged according to one's deeds, how does luck (regarding getting a ticket) come into it. Either one is fairly judged according to the good and bad actions he has done in his life, or it's luck. It can't be both ways.

Finally you have not answered my question as to how an On/Off system of judgment (one is either dead or in paradise) can ensure fairness when good and bad in people ranges in a continuous spectrum. You simply claimed that it does, somehow, because the Bible says so. Do you not have access to the Holy Spirit who can clarify this further?

I reject Christianity because I find Dharmic religions of India to be more rational, in consonant with the features of the natural world as revealed by science, and their spiritual practices provides me with convincing subjective evidence of their truthfulness. They also have the doctrine of universal salvation while ensuring fairness and justice for all actions of all people through consequential ethics of karma. So I will need some convincing that anything else is even plausible, let alone true. That's all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

of being a good student

I don't think that one's much of a choice. When I was in public school, I was bullied and tormented, my grades suffered, and I barely graduated high school. However, when I went back to college (after having dropped out the first time), I did significantly better (graduating with honors better). Nothing really changed except the environment. I went from having classmates who tormented me and teachers who were constantly against me, to having peers who respected me and teachers who gave me many rounds of positive reinforcement.
It's also been noted that poverty tends to come with declines in academic performance.

of whether you want coffee or tea, McDonald's or Burgerking, etc.

Are they choices though, really truly choices, or our acting upon preferences? I provide an easy example because coffee is intolerably gross to me so of course I will select tea every time; McDonald's or Burger King, however, it's an issue of the facts (that they are nutritionally very poor choices), that I find either one to be bland and tasteless, and would prefer a home-cooked meal that has nutritional value and flavor. It's not really a choice, but rather simply a preference.

if you come here and post answers and or questions

Perhaps. It could also be that introverts often use forums to fill the human need to socialize, but in a more controlled manner. I can shut it out when I want, not be around if I don't want, and be able to socialize in smaller bits that aren't going to overload and stress me.
And then there are also habits to consider. For me, visiting this forum is just that. I've been here for about 12 years now (just after I graduated high school), and so very often I find myself loading this site without any actual intention of doing so.

Thus limited as it is, free will is also true.

"Limited free will" is known as compatibalism. It acknowledges we have some choice, but also acknowledging the fact that we have far too much of us pre-determined for free will to actually exist.
I consider myself a compatibalist, however, the more I study, the more I learn, the more I take in, the less I come to believe we have a choice as someone who supports free will would say we have.
As I mentioned previously, self-awareness is another thing that really drives home that in so many instances in our lives that although we thought we made a choice, and were acting of our own free agency, we really weren't and did nothing more than react in ways that conform to our past experiences and future expectations.

 

[Enoch07]

There are more than that, and I've mentioned some other possibilities.

There are only 2 options for why he killed himself.

1. He did it just "because any reason other than cops coming after him"-which is your reasoning

2. He did it because the cops were coming to arrest him-which is my reasoning.

Fair enough, I'll take that bet.