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Featured Where was God during the Las Vegas shooting?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by davidor, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Я сообщил о нем в Кремль, сэр. В ожидании инструкций.
     
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  2. jackvincent

    jackvincent Member

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    Getting laid.
     
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  3. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    That is why I use more than one translation and if needed go to Strong's and Interlinear translations.

    The subject is not easy. If the claim that God creates evil is on the table, how God differs from satan must be there also.
     
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  4. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    One of the apostles said that each of us get a life, and thereafter judgment. This judgment is not based on you being just Christian or not.
    In Matt 16:27, I think, and in Revelation also, Jesus promises to pay us back for our works, good and evil.

    If you only had obedient Christians, at present, that were saved, you would have to count in less than a few millions if even one might be too many. Many Christians live disobedient lives.
    As an aside, there is neither hell of torment or heaven in death; in death there is only the not existing.
     
  5. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Nope, it's an opinion. Just like yours but at least I can admit it.
     
  6. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Do not agree. The whole point with Adam being told not to eat of the tree was that he had to show respect for God's definitions of good and evil, God's theocracy, his morality.

    Satan is a recognized entity, being, in both Jewish and Christian teachings. We are told he is the God of this system of things, the ruler of this world.

    All of scripture, that we have, is devoted to the conflict between God and satan and the destruction promised of satan. Satan peddles the 'do as you want, anything goes' philosophy. God tells us that only through obedience to his morality, edicts, may we be saved by faith.

    Since God has given all, angel, man, perhaps even animals when they decide to go left instead of right, - free will. This is why we have good people and evil people. So, in that limited sense, God has created evil, though he didn't make these people evil; they chose that road on their own by means of the free will they have. Satan encourages anything that opposes God and his morality.
     
  7. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    What, according to you, happens to an average non-Christian Joe and Jane in the afterlife in the Christian worldview? I have never received a clear answer to this.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    It's not an opinion that we hardly know anything about this shooter, nor is it opinion that we do not actually know why he committed the attacks and killed himself.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    This "conflict" does not exist in Judaism, and the entity known as Satan is not a devil but rather a fiercely loyal and obedient angel of god (and it's more of a title for "Ha-Satan," and "Satan" is a verb).
     
  10. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Well, this one is going to be confusing. If you go by church teaching you have the heaven or hell teaching from many denominations.
    I reject all church teachings and verify on my own what the Bible teaches.

    There is no afterlife. Death is destruction of the individual, be it animal or man, or woman. The dead are no more. However, the Biblical promise is that those are not wicked shall be resurrected into Paradise. This means a new human body for most according to who they were before. There they will be able to show God if they want to serve him or not.

    If you ask me specifically who is going to be resurrected I cannot answer you since I am not the judge.
     
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  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Ok, how then does a wicked person like the mass shooter get punished? He stays dead forever. That does not look like punishment.
    In your view, does an average non-Christian (that is one who led an ordinary life but never believed in Jesus) gets resurrected in paradise?
     
  12. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Like I said we got 2 options.

     
  13. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    That is perhaps the going interpretation:
    Genesis 3:14-15 14 And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. 15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”​
    This serpent is not an animal, but is satan in the struggle between God and satan:
    Revelation 12:7-10 7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:. . .​

    Satan in the OT:
    I Chronicles 21:1: Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
    Job 1:9: Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason?
    Job 1:12: And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
    Zechariah 3:1: Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

    This should suffice to show that satan is against God. Strong's says this:
    07854:
    7854 satan saw-tawn' from 7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:--adversary, Satan, withstand. see HEBREW for 07853​
    So, once we look at Genesis and include the scripture from Revelation, it is easily understood that from the beginning when satan became satan, he stood as adversary to God and at cross purpose with God's plans.
     
    #133 Grandliseur, Oct 4, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Where was God when the shooter was mowing innocent people down with legally obtained weapons designed for military slaughter? He was restraining himself whilst being fully aware that mankind are doing exactly what he said they would in trying to rule themselves without him. I cannot imagine how much restraint it takes when one has the power to zap them out of existence.....but that is not God's purpose in allowing evil to rule in this world. (1 John 5:19) The precedents set by this allowance of evil to its fullest extent, will demonstrate for all time to come, that the Creator is the best ruler for mankind, and that his rules alone guarantee success and happiness in the 'forever' to come.

    This is HIS creation getting trashed....these are the lives HE created getting taken away by evil madmen. How do we think he feels? :(
    But it is not yet time to bring all these things to a finish. Very soon now, justice will be served, but not until all things take place according to God purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

    He has the power over life and death....no one who has lost their life as a victim of evil will have to worry about the future. A resurrection is assured in a world where there will be no evil. (John 5:28-29) The "righteous" will attain life, whereas the "unrighteous" will attain judgment.....the correct judgment, according to what the Creator knows, not just what man sees.

    The incorrigibly wicked will never see life again...it will be like they never existed. That is true justice.
     
  15. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Paul teaches us in Roman chapter two - that those who have neither known God as being of Israel, nor as Christians, but died ignorant of God as taught in that holy scripture - shall be judged by the judge, Christ Jesus, on the day of judgment day (some clarification possible). All shall be judged by their own works according to their own consciences. So, e.g. killing in war, i.e. killing a combatant trying to kill you - is not considered murder. However, a combatant killing innocent ones may be judged wicked. May be - I am not the judge, and I do not know what will be done in all cases.
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them ); 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men
    God is not partial. All shall be judged fairly, but make no mistake, be you Christian or not, wickedness will earn eternal sleep in death.

    Punishment
    When a person is totally wicked and cannot be persuaded to come onto the right path of life, it is like a defective machine that cannot be fixed. These are thrown out and destroyed. This is what happens to the wicked; they are destroyed; nothing remains of them forevermore. The righteous get the chance to 'earn' eternal life. (earn is the wrong word, but does the job here)
     
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  16. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    God was there doing billions of things, comforting broken hearted, judging the wicked, showing mercy and patience and many more
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Should God intervene whenever something bad happens or only if a certain number of people (you provide the number) are involved? Roughly 120,000 people die every day. Some of them die peacefully in their sleep. Others die excruciating deaths after long illnesses. Some have lived long, productive lives; others are just days old. Some of the people who died in Las Vegas did so instantly. They probably never felt a thing. For others death was a long, drawn out process, and very likely some of the injured are still just hanging on by a thread. Did the one person who drowned in a surfing accident suffer any less than the thousands who have died in tsunamis in recent years? Do you really give any thought to all of the deaths that happen every day as a result of natural calamity, old age, accident and murder? Probably not unless you read about it online or hear it on the nightly news? So where exactly should God draw the line? When can He justifiably let death come without people blaming him and asking "Where was He?" What would this world be like if He intervened before every tragedy? You're right, God isn't controlling anything. And that's how it should be, despite the fact that bad things happen to good people.
     
  18. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    On your reply does ignorance mean only those who never heard of the Bible, or also include those who did not think Bibles' God was the right one and chose some other religion instead?
     
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    There are more than that, and I've mentioned some other possibilities. But, ultimately, we didn't even know this shooter existed as a person until the news hit, his family isn't saying much, and the investigation hasn't turned up much, so we just do not know. We can accept this, or play random guessing games and pick whatever answers and reasons we think are true, even though at this point none of us can actually know what his reasons for doing any of it were.

    Then I invite you to ask the Jews what their religion says about Ha-Satan/Satan.

    Does Judaism Believe in Satan?

    Or just ask around here; We have plenty of Jewish members who can teach you far more about the subject than I ever could.
     
  20. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    The Bible clearly shows that being ignorant causes a lesser sentence when doing something wrong.

    Your question is specific, and I am not the judge. I am sure that many of us living in so many different cultures may be predisposed by reason of culture and upbringing to reject what we shouldn't. Since God is impartial and just, he is sure to take all things into consideration.

    Here there is a However! If you have an emergency and need to travel to a foreign country in a hurry, who will get on board most likely? The one who has a ticket already, or the one who shows up to see if there are any vacant seats to be bought?!

    Assured salvation is - living in purity as a baptized Christian. Living in willful serious sin as a Christian voids your ticket. What about those who do not accept the Gospel of Christ - because of culture, etc., but live otherwise Biblical righteous lives. I cannot promise anything. It is up in the air as far as I am concerned!
    So . . .
    I can only give you what I know from scripture.
     
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