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Where to meditate?

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Dispassionate, does not mean devoid of love. Equanimity does not mean devoid of love. Non-attachment does not mean devoid of love. One can experience Divine Love as Infinite Compassion and Infinitine Love, but as one which is unattached to any desired outcome generated from one's own personal desires.

This is what distinguishes Divine Love, or one's own Buddha Nature or true Self, from egoic love, which has the small self's self-interest in mind. Divine Love, is universal. It allows, and does not cling. It does not judge between good and bad. That Love is beyond all dualities.

When you describe a lack of Love, a lack of Compassion, a lack of Grace, etc., this is dualistic. It is not nonduality.


Where then does Love exist? Only in the human emotional sphere?

While I agree everything that arises is "just is", that in no way means it is devoid of Love. In fact, non-Love, is non-reality. Everything arises from Love. "God is Love". The experience of Brahman is Satchitananda. "Ananda," that divine bliss is that divine Love.


I know because I have, and do experience Satchitananda. I too experience Reality, as Reality. If the ego is in there, if that is the focus, then the ego is what I experience with all its incompleteness, clingings, attachments, and lack of Love.


Detachment is not enlightenment, according to mystics and my own experience.


Divine Love is not duality. It's nonduality. A lack of Love, is what is in fact a duality.
Love is what a mother feels for her child and what husbands and wives feel for each other: there is no evidence that Saguna Brahman wishes to be known as Divine or as Love. To look upon a God in those ways is duality and something that is not true from my knowledge of God in vyvaharika. God is dispassionate in dealing out justice upon the evil that one sees in life whereas Brahman is satchitananda, which is truth/Existence-Consciousness/Awareness-bliss and this is not the same as love. It is just a state of being.

If you want to feel love for God that is bhakti where one pays devotional reverences for what God does. In advaita there is no longer any God but Consciousness as Brahman. An advaitin must be totally unattached to anything and this is the definition of dual-non dual perception of reality that I subscribe to.
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I am wondering that myself, and am pushing a little to see if we can't get beyond what may just be language. I am concerned to say that Brahman is a lack of love and compassion however. The experience of the Divine is anything but that. But it definitely is not "attachment", in that it is not specifically bent on that one thing or one outcome. It's equally Love to all realities. Life, death, young, old, coming going, it's all the Same Love.

I’m afraid you’re confusing me in your distinction between ‘Love’ and ‘love.’ I had presumed in the upper case you typically use the former to communicate what I call ‘Pure Consciousness’ and the latter as the the human emotion or feeling in relative reality.

If I am correct, compassion and love (lower case) are sattva, one of the three gunas. Per advaita, one’s true nature is Pure Consciousness, which is nirguna Brahman.

Therefore, you may see where the communication is breaking down in yours and @Shantanu’s conversation.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I’m afraid you’re confusing me in your distinction between ‘Love’ and ‘love.’ I had presumed in the upper case you typically use the former to communicate what I call ‘Pure Consciousness’ and the latter as the the human emotion or feeling in relative reality.

If I am correct, compassion and love (lower case) are sattva, one of the three gunas. Per advaita, one’s true nature is Pure Consciousness, which is nirguna Brahman.

Therefore, you may see where the communication is breaking down in yours and @Shantanu’s conversation.
He thinks that God is love and divine and is the source of all happiness in the world. Me thinks not.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I’m afraid you’re confusing me in your distinction between ‘Love’ and ‘love.’ I had presumed in the upper case you typically use the former to communicate what I call ‘Pure Consciousness’ and the latter as the the human emotion or feeling in relative reality.

If I am correct, compassion and love (lower case) are sattva, one of the three gunas. Per advaita, one’s true nature is Pure Consciousness, which is nirguna Brahman.

Therefore, you may see where the communication is breaking down in yours and @Shantanu’s conversation.
Yes, typically I do mean with the capitalizations what you say. What in Christian speak would be Agape Love, or Divine Love. Small l love is human love which tends to be really more a form of attachment. In my first posts I explicitly called that out, that Divine Love is not an attachment, though many do make the mistake to see that all love is a form of attachment. Love with a capital L, is equanimity. One's true Self, is Divine Love. Compassion with a capital C. Joy with a capital J, and so forth.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He thinks that God is love and divine and is the source of all happiness in the world. Me thinks not.
Don't speak for me. Divine Love is God. The nature of the Divine is Love. Now, as far as "happiness" goes, I've never said anything about that, so again, please don't assume to speak for me.

"Happiness", in the sense you meant it I believe is "feel good" happy happy stuff. That's just a human emotion that goes up and down, and is conditional. What I will say, is what I have said. God, or Bhraman, or Godhead, or the Divine Reality, or whatever name you prefer, is Satchitananda. Thats is not "happiness", on the trite level. It is Joy with a capital J. It is timeless and eternal, not fleeting and up and down.

To clarify your view so we aren't talking across each other, or worse to speak for each other as just happened here, do you accept that the Divine is Love, and what you were talking about was human attachments, small l love, small h happiness, small c compassion, and all the rest that is just human emotions? Or do you believe that Enlightenment, the experience of the Divine, is a blank. Complete zero. Nothing. Void. Zip. Blackness?

Maybe if you clarify this, then you can let me know if I've been barking up the wrong tree. It sounds to me like you prefer detachment over non-attachment, which I clarified are radically different things. I could be wrong. So if you answer directly that question, that will help.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Don't speak for me. Divine Love is God. The nature of the Divine is Love. Now, as far as "happiness" goes, I've never said anything about that, so again, please don't assume to speak for me.

"Happiness", in the sense you meant it I believe is "feel good" happy happy stuff. That's just a human emotion that goes up and down, and is conditional. What I will say, is what I have said. God, or Bhraman, or Godhead, or the Divine Reality, or whatever name you prefer, is Satchitananda. Thats is not "happiness", on the trite level. It is Joy with a capital J. It is timeless and eternal, not fleeting and up and down.

To clarify your view so we aren't talking across each other, or worse to speak for each other as just happened here, do you accept that the Divine is Love, and what you were talking about was human attachments, small l love, small h happiness, small c compassion, and all the rest that is just human emotions? Or do you believe that Enlightenment, the experience of the Divine, is a blank. Complete zero. Nothing. Void. Zip. Blackness?

Maybe if you clarify this, then you can let me know if I've been barking up the wrong tree. It sounds to me like you prefer detachment over non-attachment, which I clarified are radically different things. I could be wrong. So if you answer directly that question, that will help.

Sure I am all for further discussion of this important topic.

The first thing for me to say is that God exists in our living reality, but the enlightenment comes from being unattached to even that God and regard it as manifestation of Brahman which is Nirguna and so only satchitananda (Truth/Existence/Reality-Consciousness/Awareness-Bliss). Bliss is not the same as joy with a capital J or even happiness. These come within the sphere of genetics and associated with living in vyvaharika as a jivataman. When the jivatman is in union with Brahman one experiences Satchitananda, as described.

Is God that is manifested by Brahman in terms of Saguna God to be called 'Divine' and whether this Divine is Love', that is your question. In vyvaharika (living reality) anything like that is duality and is possible depending on the witness and observer and the stage of mental development towards becoming an advaitin.

To me the term Divine simply denotes something that out of this material world, and it is not Love in the sense that God is doing things for me out of great Love and Compassion for me. This is because in the absolute truth existence is beyond such dualities and Brahman dispassionately carries out its task of preserving the universe without so much as a flicker of love or compassion for anyone. And since I am Brahman I acquire the same attributes of equanimity and dispassionate motivation in order to conduct my dharma, which I do to seek truth and justice by combatting the evil of State-organised persecution in the United Kingdom. Brahman is unconcerned about my suffering: it just is and suffers with me.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sure I am all for further discussion of this important topic.
Great. I am seeing that much of the challenge is simply a different language set to describe the same things.

The first thing for me to say is that God exists in our living reality, but the enlightenment comes from being unattached to even that God and regard it as manifestation of Brahman which is Nirguna and so only satchitananda (Truth/Existence/Reality-Consciousness/Awareness-Bliss).
The first order of business is to clarify the use of the term God. I know it is a loaded term laden with connotations. But furthermore, and most importantly, any language whatsoever to try to talk about Ultimate Reality is bound to fail. Words put a boundary around experience and separates it out from the Infinite, into a dualistic perception of reality. It takes the Infinite and makes it a finite object.

The best that any language can do at that level, where language breaks apart into paradoxes, is to see the words more on the level of grunts and pointings, in feeble attempts to describe the indescribable. They are at best metaphors. It's not the definitions of words, but the context, the intent, and the sense of what is being pointed to in these words that conveys the meaning, and hopefully connect each other in shared experience, or at least inspire what is within someone, what they intuit from within towards the realization of that inner Truth.

As far as God goes, I personally do not use it to mean a particular deity form. I do not use it in the sense of an anthropomorphic deity, an entity, a person, or some other dualistic view. When I say God, it is also not "other" to these forms. If it were, that would be dualistic too. I use it in the sense of Godhead, in that both the manifest and unmanifest are all God. To say for instance "The world is illusion. Brahman alone is real." and stop there, is itself a dualistic statement. It says one is real the other is not. That is separation. That is what Monisim does. It is subtle dualism.

What doesn't do that is to complete that thought and end that in a necessary paradox. "Bhraman is the world". The world is illusion, and the world is real, is a paradox. So "God" is not "a god", but God is also not "not a god". Everything that is divided is divided by the mind thinking and conceiving in terms of language, words. True nonduality transcends language. And to me "God", is of its nature of pointing to Ultimate Reality, is inherently paradoxical. That is also conveyed in the Buddhist saying from the Heart Sutra, "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form. Form is not different than emptiness; emptiness is not different than form" The dualistic mind cannot hold these apparent opposites, yet it is Truth. Nonduality is paradoxical. It is both One and Many. This can be apprehended by ones being, but not comprehended by the mind.

So, I do very much agree that attachment to concepts, such as one that sees God as a "form", an "entity" or some other object outside of one's self, has to be let go of in order to transcend dualistic thinking. You can find this realization in the paradoxical statement of the Christian Mystic Meister Eckhart when he said, "I pray God make me free of God, that I may know God in his unconditioned being". The last thing it seems for most, is to abandon all their religious ideas in order to truly realize God.

Bliss is not the same as joy with a capital J or even happiness.
That really depends how deeply one wants to limit what the word entails. While I do hear bliss as complete, uninterrupted stillness, Joy is the highest expression of that state of Bliss, which to mean is that really imperceptible line between God's being, and Creation. Nirguna Brahman is not truly "different" or "other to" Saguna Brahman. The light from the sun can be spoken of as different than nuclear fusion, but the sun without both is not the sun. :) That Joy is what manifests from God's being. It is not other to God. It is "God manifesting".

Is God that is manifested by Brahman in terms of Saguna God to be called 'Divine' and whether this Divine is Love', that is your question.
I see it as different realization of the same Reality. There are "depths of the Divine", which includes the formless unmanifest and the manifest. Everything is the Divine Reality, which is both Nirguna and Saguna.

In vyvaharika (living reality) anything like that is duality and is possible depending on the witness and observer and the stage of mental development towards becoming an advaitin.
To exclude duality from Reality, is itself a duality. It is says "this, and not that" is real. It divides God. It divides Reality. While this is truth spoken to the dualistic mind, to see beyond duality, once one has Realized Truth, or Reality, to then say, all that is not real, is an illusion, is itself a form of subtle dualism. Naraguna pointed this out. Nonduality cannot exclude and deny duality and be truly nondual. What the denial of duality is then is not nonduality, but monsim, which is another dualistic division of the world say "One and not two". Reality is neither one nor two, and both one and two. It cannot be defined in terms of divisions, or non-divisions. It' both and neither. Impossible for words.

To me the term Divine simply denotes something that out of this material world, and it is not Love in the sense that God is doing things for me out of great Love and Compassion for me.
And that is an image of God that is not operational for me. God doesn't "do things". God IS. Perhaps a better descriptor for me is God is "Is'ing". Being and becoming. Manifesting. Creating. I do not see God as "other" to me, where this entity or being outside myself "does things", as if it is an independent agent. That is too much of an anthropomorphic, dualistic perception of the Divine Reality to adequate work for me. "Creator" is valid, but in the sense of continuous unfolding. And I am both part of that, and That itself.

This is because in the absolute truth existence is beyond such dualities and Brahman dispassionately carries out its task of preserving the universe without so much as a flicker of love or compassion for anyone.
Like was pointed out, I think we may be finding we're not saying things opposite each other here. Yes, Absolute Truth is beyond duality, but I'm adding it does not exclude them either. It transcends and includes. Now as far as dispassionateness, yes in a sense that is is beyond human emotional desires and attachments, but again I do not understand this as being indifferent. I make a valid point on the difference between detachment and non-attachment. Absolute Truth is not devoid of Absolute Love. They are the same. Truth is Love. Love is Truth.

You know, I'm having the funny thought that this paradoxical problem is much the same here as one finds in how Christians take the Trinity formulation to speak of the Divine Reality, as "persons". Three but one. One but three. It's the taking of dualistic concepts and trying to define the undefinable. These are metaphors, not descriptors.

And since I am Brahman I acquire the same attributes of equanimity and dispassionate motivation in order to conduct my dharma,
And that equanimity and dispassionate motivation is the result of apprehending that Divine Reality, or Love. That Love is not a feeling. It is a state of Being that holds all that is, with Utter, and Pure Compassion, Awareness, and non-judgement. It is the Condition upon which all conditions arise.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Meditation can be done anywhere one feel is good, but sometimes one find a place that make the meditation more easy, and to me that is deep within the forest or a mountain.

Do you have some area you meditate more often or does it not matter?
everyday.....as I lay me down to sleep

I let my thoughts lead me into dreamscape
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree with you on that. Would God be the Creator God or the Preserver God in your view?
God is All That Is. There is no this "or" that option. "Creator or Preserver" is a dualistic division. However God can be seen or perceived in many ways, from our relative perspectives. Insert here the fable of the blind men and the elephant.

How do you see God in this division between Creator or Preserver?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
God is All That Is. There is no this "or" that option. "Creator or Preserver" is a dualistic division. However God can be seen or perceived in many ways, from our relative perspectives. Insert here the fable of the blind men and the elephant.

How do you see God in this division between Creator or Preserver?
All I know is Brahman as the Reality: an advaitin is Brahman Consciousness, and very creative and preserving through the dharma that he performs quite naturally and instintively. So one could say that Brahman preserves itself very creatively.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All I know is Brahman as the Reality:
Which is what I said that God is "All That Is". Reality with a capital R. This can be understood through a myriad of different perceptions from our realive realities, with a small r.

So it appears we are on the same page?

an advaitin is Brahman Consciousness, and very creative and preserving through the dharma that he performs quite naturally and instintively. So one could say that Brahman preserves itself very creatively.
I would agree. Creativity, creation, self-preservation are all its, what I term Divine Nature. Capital R Reality is Divine Reality, of which we are partakers and participants within our relative domains of finite existences. God is endless creating itself in form out of Emptiness, or Infinite Formless Potential. God is both the One and the Many.

Agreed?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Which is what I said that God is "All That Is". Reality with a capital R. This can be understood through a myriad of different perceptions from our realive realities, with a small r.

So it appears we are on the same page?


I would agree. Creativity, creation, self-preservation are all its, what I term Divine Nature. Capital R Reality is Divine Reality, of which we are partakers and participants within our relative domains of finite existences. God is endless creating itself in form out of Emptiness, or Infinite Formless Potential. God is both the One and the Many.

Agreed?
God is not Reality: God is a part of Reality: the Reality is Consciousness and the idea is to merge with that Consciousness to benefit from Satchitananda.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is not Reality: God is a part of Reality: the Reality is Consciousness and the idea is to merge with that Consciousness to benefit from Satchitananda.
How do you define God then? Is God finite or infinite in your view? I'm not necessarily married to the term God, though I like to use it. Divine Reality, or Consciousness is what I also call God. I don't divide it out from that. But Reality is a term I often use instead, because of the difficulty that word can present that people hear as an "entity".

But then I do recognize that people have to start somewhere, seeing the Infinite as an "object" because they are not yet freed from dualistic reality. That's how God becomes a "person", whereas "it" transcends that visualization, where you can't even use the word "it" or "he", or such. So it has practical use as a finger pointing at the moon.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
How do you define God then? Is God finite or infinite in your view? I'm not necessarily married to the term God, though I like to use it. Divine Reality, or Consciousness is what I also call God. I don't divide it out from that. But Reality is a term I often use instead, because of the difficulty that word can present that people hear as an "entity".

But then I do recognize that people have to start somewhere, seeing the Infinite as an "object" because they are not yet freed from dualistic reality. That's how God becomes a "person", whereas its clearly transcends that visualization.
Gods exist as entities in our subconscious and give us the thoughts that guide us at a general level depending on one's genetics. These gods are part of existence in vyvaharika the living reality only. When one is an advaitin one is directly merging with the Brahman Consciousness which is not God. God implies one can describe this entity in real terms and one cannot. So God only exists as a figment of ones imagination. Brahman Consciousness is Nirguna, which is not Emptiness because it is Satchitananda (Truth/Existence/Reality-Consciousnees/Awareness-Bliss) and is the source of all ones selfpreserving actions through what I call dharma. Love, Divine, etc that you mention do not come into the consideration of what Brahman is. It is indescribable beyond being Satchitananda.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Gods exist as entities in our subconscious and give us the thoughts that guide us at a general level depending on one's genetics.
Yes, this is a language thing for us. While when I say God, as I've mentioned, I am generally referring to what might be the better term Godhead, which is not a "form", as what you are describing as gods. If I am speaking of forms of the Divine, then I say gods, not God with a capital G. God, singular, is the Formless, which manifests into forms.

And so forms too, can be called God, singular, with a capital God, which can be seen as gods by the subconscious. Another term for these subconscious entities would be Archetypal forms. But they are all God, behind the faces or masks, to put it that way.

These gods are part of existence in vyvaharika the living reality only.
I would state this same thing as they are part of the world of form. Specifically, subtle forms.

When one is an advaitin one is directly merging with the Brahman Consciousness which is not God.
In my language, and that of many mystics, we directly merge with the Divine, or God, which is exactly what you describe saying Brahman Consciousness. I think Buddhists call it Buddha Nature. We aren't talking about deities here.

God implies one can describe this entity in real terms and one cannot.
Saying anything about the Absolute at all, using any words, your words or my words, implies one can describe the Infinite in real terms. When you say Brahman, that makes "it" and "it" or an object, simply by using a word.

You even used the term "he" at one point to speak of this. Now in my mind, that make it a deity form, specifically have masculine qualities. But I know that is not what you intended. You should know that is not what I intend either in the use of my terms. The context of which we are both speaking should indicate the meaning. You should by this point see I am not talking about gods, just as your use of "he" doesn't mean to me that you are, even though it could be taken that way.

As I said, if someone has not had this direct realization of the Infinite, which can be called God or Brahman equally, they are in fact going to envision some "form". It is unavoidable, simply because they do not have the experience to provide a context for apprehension of the Formless.

To quote the Tao De Ching, "The Tao that can be named is not the Tao." Whether you call that Brahman, or I call God. The reason is simple. Words define things. But if held as metaphors, which is what I do, then the confusion goes away. They are fingers pointing at the moon, poetry, not the language of definitions.

So God only exists as a figment of ones imagination.
Deities is more accurate to what you are saying. But personally I'd avoid language calling what they are to the subconscious mind as mere "figments". They serve a far deeper and more substantial role in the grand scheme of things, than just errant imagery. We could probably devote a whole thread to just that discussion alone.

Brahman Consciousness is Nirguna, which is not Emptiness because it is Satchitananda (Truth/Existence/Reality-Consciousnees/Awareness-Bliss) and is the source of all ones selfpreserving actions through what I call dharma.
Again, the failure of understand the language of other cultures talking about the exact same thing. Emptiness does include what you say it does not. Emptiness is not Blank, Zero, Nothing. It simply means the Formless All. While "it" has no form, in other words it is "nothing" in the sense of "no thing" or not an object, not something, not a thing at all, it is Neti Neti.

A good description of what you are saying and what the Buddhists are saying is that Emptiness, or God, or Brahman, is the paper upon which everything exists arises upon. It is the Space between the notes which allows form to be seen, experienced, and express that Space, or in terms of music, that Silence. That Silence, is the Potentiality of all that is created from it as Source.

It is extremely difficult to put these into understandable terms, as it breaks free from a "this or that", dualistic reality. But if anything, you should be able to see that how I speak of God, or the Buddhists Emptiness, it is not deities we are talking about. God can, and certainly does mean more than gods. It means to me, what I hear you saying.

Love, Divine, etc that you mention do not come into the consideration of what Brahman is. It is indescribable beyond being Satchitananda.
This is just language. I have had, and do have, direct experience of the Absolute. The word that describes that for me, is Absolute Love, not fleeting emotions. Terms of equanimity fit perfectly with this. Infinite Awareness. Infinite Compassion. Infinite Grace, all emanate from the Infinite Silence. They are all the same, like the rays of light from the nuclear furnace, which we embrace as the Single Sun.

Can you agree we are saying the same things, and your use of my words is causing you to hear something that I am not saying?
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Yes, this is a language thing for us. While when I say God, as I've mentioned, I am generally referring to what might be the better term Godhead, which is not a "form", as what you are describing as gods. If I am speaking of forms of the Divine, then I say gods, not God with a capital G. God, singular, is the Formless, which manifests into forms.

And so forms too, can be called God, singular, with a capital God, which can be seen as gods by the subconscious. Another term for these subconscious entities would be Archetypal forms. But they are all God, behind the faces or masks, to put it that way.


I would state this same thing as they are part of the world of form. Specifically, subtle forms.


In my language, and that of many mystics, we directly merge with the Divine, or God, which is exactly what you describe saying Brahman Consciousness. I think Buddhists call it Buddha Nature. We aren't talking about deities here.


Saying anything about the Absolute at all, using any words, your words or my words, implies one can describe the Infinite in real terms. When you say Brahman, that makes "it" and "it" or an object, simply by using a word.

You even used the term "he" at one point to speak of this. Now in my mind, that make it a deity form, specifically have masculine qualities. But I know that is not what you intended. You should know that is not what I intend either in the use of my terms. The context of which we are both speaking should indicate the meaning. You should by this point see I am not talking about gods, just as your use of "he" doesn't mean to me that you are, even though it could be taken that way.

As I said, if someone has not had this direct realization of the Infinite, which can be called God or Brahman equally, they are in fact going to envision some "form". It is unavoidable, simply because they do not have the experience to provide a context for apprehension of the Formless.

To quote the Tao De Ching, "The Tao that can be named is not the Tao." Whether you call that Brahman, or I call God. The reason is simple. Words define things. But if held as metaphors, which is what I do, then the confusion goes away. They are fingers pointing at the moon, poetry, not the language of definitions.


Deities is more accurate to what you are saying. But personally I'd avoid language calling what they are to the subconscious mind as mere "figments". They serve a far deeper and more substantial role in the grand scheme of things, than just errant imagery. We could probably devote a whole thread to just that discussion alone.


Again, the failure of understand the language of other cultures talking about the exact same thing. Emptiness does include what you say it does not. Emptiness is not Blank, Zero, Nothing. It simply means the Formless All. While "it" has no form, in other words it is "nothing" in the sense of "no thing" or not an object, not something, not a thing at all, it is Neti Neti.

A good description of what you are saying and what the Buddhists are saying is that Emptiness, or God, or Brahman, is the paper upon which everything exists arises upon. It is the Space between the notes which allows form to be seen, experienced, and express that Space, or in terms of music, that Silence. That Silence, is the Potentiality of all that is created from it as Source.

It is extremely difficult to put these into understandable terms, as it breaks free from a "this or that", dualistic reality. But if anything, you should be able to see that how I speak of God, or the Buddhists Emptiness, it is not deities we are talking about. God can, and certainly does mean more than gods. It means to me, what I hear you saying.


This is just language. I have had, and do have, direct experience of the Absolute. The word that describes that for me, is Absolute Love, not fleeting emotions. Terms of equanimity fit perfectly with this. Infinite Awareness. Infinite Compassion. Infinite Grace, all emanate from the Infinite Silence. They are all the same, like the rays of light from the nuclear furnace, which we embrace as the Single Sun.

Can you agree we are saying the same things, and your use of my words is causing you to hear something that I am not saying?

We are still in the process of determining what God is and I am not sure that you have clarified that even though you say you have direct experience of the Absolute. My direct experience of the Absolute came from seeking messages from within me that I believed God was present in by using a digital clock to see if a relationship of question and answer could be established with God. So I would approach a digital clock with the agreement with God that if I was met by a number '7' it meant that I had to do some important thing to withstand the persecution that was unleashed upon me by the United Kingdom State. So 1.15, 2.41, 3.04, 4.21, 5.20, 6.10, 7.00, 8.08, 9.25, 10.33, 11.32 etc amounted to 7 and required me to take some action that would enable me to survive the persecution. From that I determined that God was Divine and protected me against the evil that I faced in the United Kingdom.

Before that I used to use the numbers 3, 6 and 9 for positive messages to act in certain ways and these were very productive too. But I was not certain that it was not a matter of chance that I was seeing these numbers so I then switched to using the single number of 7 to experiment with. Although it was far from scientific because these were devotional practices performed in faith that I would get the correct message from God for my actions, I had managed to find out that God truly existed, and the relationship between a human being and God was one of acintya bhed abheda tatwa, meaning simultaneous oneness and separteness.

I was however not happy that I had surrendered my freedom entirely to God and so decided to explore whether I would still find myself protected if I stopped seeking messages from God using the digital clock. And this is when I discovered advaita in its most profound manifestation. I could survive without explicit help from God. I was infact infallible and perfect in the actions that I would undertake. I was all the God that I needed to be. Is this the same for everyone? I do not know. I cannot speak for anyone apart from myself for I have experienced living in union with God: who else has. You seem to have had some experience, but was it as clear cut as mine?

So my realisation was that of an advaitin in Hindu parlance where there was no distinction between myself and God as the Consciousness that guided my every action in life.

Acintya bhed abheda tatwa was therefore a passing phase that got superceded by advaita.

Using the digital clock to seek messages from God was my meditation to seek the truth, on the basis that if anyone could tell me the truth it had to be God Himself.

I still seek messages from God using the digital clock periodically to ensure that I do not miss out on any updating information that I need to know.

That is how I seek knowledge. The process is known as satyadvaita or oneness with truth.

Does this make any sense to you?
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We are still in the process of determining what God is and I am not sure that you have clarified that even though you say you have direct experience of the Absolute.
I've clarified it as much as is possible using language. It helps to say what I don't see it as, as a way to point to what I do as best as possible at that particular moment happen to see it as. It's like looking at a radiant stone. It depends on the angle of the light and what it inspires with you in how you describe it.

My direct experience of the Absolute came from seeking messages from within me that I believed God was present in by using a digital clock to see if a relationship of question and answer could be established with God.
I seem to have heard of others finding some connection to the transcendent through this particular thing. I liken it to the reading of tea leaves or Yijing. It's a vehicle for the subconscious to talk to the conscious through symbolic forms.

Although it was far from scientific because these were devotional practices performed in faith that I would get the correct message from God for my actions, I had managed to find out that God truly existed, and the relationship between a human being and God was one of acintya bhed abheda tatwa, meaning simultaneous oneness and separteness.
I like that term of simultaneous oneness and separateness. This is part of the paradoxical nature of living in a dualistic reality within nondual Reality. The dualistic mind in order to function must see separation. Yet, the core of our own existence is the same as everyone else. We are the Universe, 14.5 billion years of evolution in this skin-sack we call "me".

I was however not happy that I had surrendered my freedom entirely to God and so decided to explore whether I would still find myself protected if I stopped seeking messages from God using the digital clock.
Surrendering to God should result in union with God. In Christian parlance, you die that you may live. The true Self emerges through surrender, as the ego stops all its projects. You must have found the ego still grasping to make itself a better version of itself.

And this is when I discovered advaita in its most profound manifestation. I could survive without explicit help from God.
Yes, the most difficult thing for a human is realize God within. That the source of Joy, is within us, all along. It's just simply a matter of allow it to flow through us as Life itself in this flesh. It sounds like you were making the transition to that realization.

I was infact infallible and perfect in the actions that I would undertake.
The Eternal is infallible, in the sense that you cannot truly die. No one can. Even though I am fallible in my human program that is called "me", I can rest knowing that is not who I truly am. I am the Son of God. We all are. And by that, I mean an Incarnation. "I and my Father are One".

You seem to have had some experience, but was it as clear cut as mine?
I can only speak for what this is for me. There is absolutely no doubt at all of what I have experienced. It's all just a matter of finding ways to understand, integrate, and talk about it to others. Words I use to speak of it would be with all capital letters: Life, Light, Love, Joy, Peace, Omniscience, Grace, Compassion, Stillness, Luminensence, Radiance, Power, Infinity within an Infinity of Infinities, Oneness, Simplicity, Silence, Knowledge, Truth, Eternity, Timelessness, Intimacy, Absolute and Utter Beauty.

I'm sure I could find other words, but every single one of those are from direct personal experience.

Acintya bhed abheda tatwa was therefore a passing phase that got superceded by advaita.
I believe that is still valid, when you come out on the other side of the Casual into the Nondual. That absolute Oneness, explodes into Multiplicity, of which you are one. I find it best expressed in the saying of Jesus, "I and my Father are One".

Using the digital clock to seek messages from God was my meditation to seek the truth, on the basis that if anyone could tell me the truth it had to be God Himself.
You used it as a tool to find your own truth within you, which is God.

I still seek messages from God using the digital clock periodically to ensure that I do not miss out on any updating information that I need to know.
Why? Have you forgotten who you are? :)
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Why? Have you forgotten who you are? :)

I had not convinced myself that acintya bhed abheda tatwa (simultaneous oneness and separateness) predominated over non-dual advaita of oneness with Brahman. So I needed to search some more and who else but God has the capacity to teach me the answer to this ultimate question for mankind. If He will not oblige for His own reasons I will have to find other means of determining this knowledge. Knowledge is what I live for and I will not stop until I have found the fullest possible exposition of the Ultimate Reality.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Knowledge is what I live for and I will not stop until I have found the fullest possible exposition of the Ultimate Reality.
I would say that should keep you from seeing the Obvious, until you stop such a pursuit. :) It is "Just this". That's the fullest possible exposition.
 
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