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Featured Where Islam and Culture meet.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Lorgar-Aurelian, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    Islam is now pretty much impossible to separate from the culture of the people who practice it. What I mean by that is there are plenty of practices in Islam that have no place in the Quran and debatably a place in hadith that Muslims carry out everyday.

    One of these things is the head covering. It's arguable that hijab , niqab , burqa , chador ect are not actually Islamic in anyway shape or form. The easiest ones here to demonstrate are things like burqa and niqab. No where In the quran does it say a woman has to cover her face up to her eyes let alone her entire face. This is pretty much entirely a cultural practice and has pretty much no place in Islam.

    What about the Hijab? Clearly that is Islamic isn't it?

    Well this Is where things get a little more complicated. A good portion of the Quran's you read online are wahabi translations which is why you get things like

    1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful”

    [al-Noor 24:31]

    You can see here they pretty much assume that these people were covering their heads. If you just read the verse with less of a wahabi bent from the get go...

    And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.
    24:31

    Something you'll notice right off the bat is that both interpretations start out with the assumption women are covering their heads. No where in the Quran does it say to cover one's head. So why would they already assume people are covering their heads? Easy! Culture.

    It was part of the culture in Arabia at the time for women (and men for the most part) to cover their heads. In other words without forcing people to follow Arabic culture this verse is essentially telling people to dress modestly and not let their boobs hang out.

    Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Look if you want to just look at this through a cultural lens then it was part of the culture at the time, how can you blame a man for living in his culture and doing the things of his culture.

    See I honestly wouldn't have as much of a problem with this when you consider this is how a good portion of the world worked at the time, it isn't really until the modern invention of education and universal education that age becomes more important. My issue here comes from modern muslims doing it and of course the idea that Muhammad is supposed to be an example for all mankind.

    If you say Muhammad is an example for all mankind and we should strive to be like him well that Is where the issue arises. This goes from an act of a man in his culture to the act of a prophet which is ordained by God. Essentially unless you separate culture you can not be a Muslim without supporting underage marriage.

    From there you get things like "Men need to wear Arabic style of dress" "Men need to have beards" "You can't enter a house with your left foot, it always has to be your right." Ect. A huge portion of all this Is Arabic culture as brought to us by the Sunnah and has no actual place in islam. " I have a beard now , am I closer to God?" No but you do look pretty good with a beard.
     
  2. Kirran

    Kirran
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    There was this one Muslim convert who wanted to look like a proper Salafi, but realised he just looked like a backwoods cracker, in his words.
     
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  3. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    That is general how it goes. To be a Muslim one doesn't have to embrace every aspect of Arabic culture but modern salafis really seem to want to make you embrace Arabic culture.
     
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  4. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Yeah, a lot of people convert to Islam, then people tell them this is how you be a good Muslim, and it's just to do everything in that respective person's culture, usually Arabic but sometimes South Asian.
     
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  5. MD

    MD qualiaphile

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    Islam is an extension of ancient Arabian culture. A lot of its myths are heavily based on Arabian myths (the Kaaba, jinns, cat reverence for example), Ramadan was a tribal Arabian practice, the Quran is written in Arabic and you can see many other tribal Arabian customs embedded into the faith. The rasoolallah was an Arab, as were most of the sahaba. There has been tremendous influences from Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism as well, but at its core it's an Arabic faith.

    To live a pure life according to Sunna one must venerate and follow the lead of Mohammed, thus one must transform oneself into the contextual Arabian culture of the time. This is why many Islamicized cultures eventually lose a great deal of their pre Islamic heritage and become very Arabized, it's a form of ancient colonialism.

    Islam was heavily 'civilized' by Iranian, Central Asian and Turkish intellectuals, but even so the strong sense of tribalism within the faith is heavily tied in with Arabian tribalism.
     
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  6. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    It's similar to what I've seen with certain people who adopt a dharmic path. Suddenly everything has to have a flavor of india otherwise how could you ever know they were hindu! The sheer horror of not having a ton of indian merchandise all around the house and indian dress! oh the Humanity!
     
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  7. hadrianus

    hadrianus prophet Dr. Oetker

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    And the ones who are away from that '' culture '' are the luckiest ones,IMO.
     
  8. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    I learned within the first year after converting to Islam that some Muslims just want to turn the united states into the middle east. Which reminds me of the time I went to the Friday service and the guy tried to say the united states was the pharaoh of the moses story and that if Pharaoh had predator drones that what he would use and this was all justification to hate the united states. Oh and make sure your pants are too long or that Is haram " Forbidden"
     
  9. Kirran

    Kirran
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    By contrast, you have Michael Muhammad Knight and his admirers, and you have the indigenous Islamic movements like the NOI and the Five Percenters.
     
  10. hadrianus

    hadrianus prophet Dr. Oetker

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    All true .Friday preachings are all about usa and israel ,just politics.
     
  11. Kirran

    Kirran
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    I'd feel more comfortable at Sufi gatherings than listening to your average pulpit imam.
     
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  12. MD

    MD qualiaphile

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    Tiny insignificant movements which are heavily shunned by even Ahmadis and other Islamic 'pariahs'.
     
  13. Lorgar-Aurelian

    Lorgar-Aurelian Active Member

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    Well yeah at least they aren't boring on top of everything else.

    if only jummah was like this.
     
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  14. hadrianus

    hadrianus prophet Dr. Oetker

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    Is he my imam??? Ohhh noooo :)

    Yes,ahmediyyas,allewites ( the turkish version is really good,they chant and dance while making music as a ritual) and sufis are angel-like people.
     
  15. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Are there many Ahmadis in Turkey? I am into the Alawites and Sufis, less the Ahmadis I admit, by doctrine.
     
  16. hadrianus

    hadrianus prophet Dr. Oetker

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    I have not ever heart of Ahmadis in Turkey.
     
  17. Kirran

    Kirran
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  18. MD

    MD qualiaphile

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    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. hadrianus

    hadrianus prophet Dr. Oetker

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    • Funny Funny x 3
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Islam is now pretty much impossible to separate from the culture of the people who practice it.

    Not difficult.
    Anything which has no clue in Quran, is cultural.
    It is for this that the religion Islam has spread far and wide in the world. No specific culture is needed.
    Regards
     
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