Where is the "simple life", where are the "simple cells"?

[Valjean]

Both evolution and cosmology don't make sense from an educated or uneducated stand point. Apes should be extinct if we evolved from them. The theory of cosmology also seems to have holes. Something just doesn't appear out of no where. It had to be created.

No, evolution and cosmology make sense precisely because of education and evidence. Educated people who understand the evidence believe the scientific consensus.

Your contention that apes should be extinct illustrates your unfamiliarity with the mechanisms involved.
Could you explain why you think our evolution would affect apes'?

I don't understand. Isn't it your contention that both the universe and humans did just appeared out of nowhere? If not, what generative mechanism do you propose?

 

[Deeje]

So, what is creationisms answer to @leroy 's questions?

Since you asked.....

Our scenario goes back to the creation of the universe itself as the single act of an energy source that is incomprehensible even to science.
Since the Creator takes credit for that act, it stands to reason that he had a purpose in its creation, since highly intelligent minds never do anything for no good reason.

The Creator tells us that he prepared a “formless and waste” planet in one small galaxy, in one small solar system, to further his project. (which I believe will result in the eventual population of the whole universe with many diverse life forms that we already see here on earth. If its one thing that Creator relishes, its variety.)

He altered this planet's atmosphere and divided its waters in order to support life. Genesis describes in simple terms (for an uneducated people) what he did, and the order in which living things appeared in the periods of time he allotted for each creative period, which he simply called “days”. In describing “evening and morning” for each of those creative periods, he gave away the fact that they were not 24 hour days but possibly eons of undetermined time. A literal “day” would have gone from evening to evening, not evening to morning. As one "day" concluded, the dawn of another "day" began. With each period was a closing declaration that all was going to plan. On the final day, God changed his declaration to "very good".....he was well pleased with his accomplishments. The seventh "day" began, but there is no concluding declaration because we believe that it is still running, sorting out all the difficult problems that would have arisen if free willed beings decided to misuse their gift. It too will end well as God's purpose for his universe will proceed as he wills it to.

So first of all we remove the 24 hour nonsense. Science knows that the earth and the universe are ancient...but they also know that it all had a beginning. We see the Creator as the ‘Beginner’.

The order of creation in Genesis also shows remarkable accuracy in the fact that living things began to exist in the ocean. So marine creatures and flying creatures were our first animate organisms.
The one thing that Genesis does not tell us is when microscopic life began, but science can fill in those blanks.

“Light” was the first thing that Genesis states as being there from the beginning. All life requires light and what light produces....so light and water were there at the beginning and what followed next was vegetation...also a living organism, but not classed by Genesis with animate creatures which came a very long time later. Vegetation requires soil and we know that soil is teeming with bacteria in large variety.....all there for a purpose....a very important purpose since vegetation was to support all life in one way or another.

I see a pattern emerge here that gels with my logic as a 'spiritual' person.
The first life, invisible and inanimate was there long before the animate creatures, who all had their habitats prepared well in advance of their creation. No "flukes" or suggestions are necessary. Those first cells, needed to promote the lives of other living things, were created like everything else...with a purpose and with sustainability and adaptability already built in.

Everything meshes with what Genesis says...you just have to study what it actually says rather than what you think it says in a cursory reading. I find no difficulty meshing what the Bible says with what science knows. (not what it assumes to fit a theory)

 

[leroy]

Everywhere.

There are single celled eukaryotes

E coli is single celled

Many alga are single celled

As are yeasts

Ok so do you belive that the first living things where as complex as modern E coli?.......if not then why did you even made that comment?

 

[Valjean]

Of course they are gone, but why? These simple cells were supposed to be swimming all over the ancient world for billions of years in all types of environments, why is it than none of this populations survived to this date?

As I said before, if there was no selective pressure for “more complexity” then these cells had no reason to evolve in to more complex stuff.

Not all types of environments. They persisted only until selective pressure from their better adapted offspring overwhelmed them.
They reproduced with variation. and some 'varieties' were better adapted to the environment than the originals. That generated the selective pressure.

 

[Valjean]

Ok, 99% are gone, so where is the remaining 1% of species of simple cells? I am not saying that we should find the exact type that emerge in the “primordial soup” all I am saying is that after abiogenesis there was a period of millions and millions of years where all cells where simple….., different “species” of simple cells happily swimming in all sorts of environments. Are we to believe that none of them survived?....why?

So are you saying that oxygen killed all these cells? Why would that be the case? What about those who lived underwater?

Actually, life-generated oxygen did once kill off much of the life on Earth. Oxygen is a very reactive element. It's caustic -- and it dissolves in water, that's how fish breathe.

You can still find relicts of the original, anaerobic microbes in protected, anoxic environments.

 

[Valjean]

Yes that is exactly my point, if complex cells evolved from simple cells, this wouldn’t imply that all the simple cells have to go extinct.

So where are the simple cells?

Unless they had to compete with their more complex, better adapted progeny.

What is there in a chimp or gorilla environment to out-compete them?

 

[Valjean]

@leroy we already know that this question will be dodged in a variety of ways....brushed off....ridiculed....with accusations of ignorance and even lying......but there will never be a substantiated answer to your OP.....because they have no real evidence for their first premise. It is a “best guess” and they know it....no matter how much they protest, their house of cards has no real foundations. They actually have a bigger fairy story than those who believe in an Intelligent Creator.

Their ‘education’ is as much of an ‘indoctrination’ as they believe we have.....but how dare we insult their ‘gods’ and their ‘scripture’! LOL

There are none so blind....

 

[Deeje]

"Yep...peer review.....such a trusted and unbiased process....

"

Yes, one can see that it's so much better to rely on trusted processes, like the promulgations of "prophets" of all these gods from human history:

Sutekh, once the high god of the whole Nile Valley
Resheph
Anath
Ashtoreth
El
Nergal
Nebo
Ninib
Melek
Ahijah
Isis
Ptah
Anubis
Baal
Astarte
Hadad
Addu
Shalem
Dagon
Sharrab
Yau
Amon-Re
Osiris
Sebek
Molech?

All these were once gods of the highest eminence. Many of them are mentioned with fear and trembling in the Old Testament. They ranked, five or six thousand years ago, with Jahveh himself; the worst of them stood far higher than Thor. Yet they have all gone down the chute.

Well, there was a way to test prophets in those times......what they foretold would come true and their power would be demonstrated in tangible and real ways, (observed by eye witnesses) in the performance of supernatural fetes. Jehovah fulfilled that criteria, from Elijah through to the apostles.

The funny thing about any of those fake gods is that they are not even believed in anymore....but the puppet master behind those gods, (their creator) the only other god in existence who solicits our worship, still does and is no less busy making recruits. These days he is more likely to make God disappear with science rather than religion......he makes science appear NOT to be a religion. But since science (particularly evolution) involves so much "belief" in what cannot be proven, it is clearly just another "belief system".

Jehovah has never 'gone out of fashion' or disappeared from existence even though many have tried to kill him off.....his written instructions to humankind have also experienced many attempts to destroy it.....but it still remains in this world a "best seller". Go figure.

 

[Valjean]

How simple was the first living cell? How can science possibly “know” what the situation was on earth millions or billions of years ago? It’s all best guesswork....based on suggestion and assumption about what “might have” taken place in the dim dark past. All its assumptions must of necessity fit the box that they have created. So all evidence must be interpreted to fit that first premise. The first premise has no real foundations.

Challenge the first premise and that is when the insults start.

Science "knows" a great deal that isn't immediately apparent. Your ignorance of the evidence, the research methods and the reasoning behind scientific knowledge does not falsify it.
Scientific theories are not based on guesswork, moreover, they are tested and discarded if they're found not to support the "premise."

 

[Deeje]

Science "knows" a great deal that isn't immediately apparent. Your ignorance of the evidence, the research methods and the reasoning behind scientific knowledge does not falsify it.
Scientific theories are not based on guesswork, moreover, they are tested and discarded if they're found not to support the "premise."

I believe that is complete rubbish. Science knows a lot for sure...but what it doesn't know, it fills in those gaps with imagination and suggestion, because the box that evolutionists have created has a lid. Everything must fit under that lid.....if it doesn't fit, they invent a scenario that makes it fit....we see this all the time.....every sentence that contains a "maybe" or a "might have" or a "could have" gives them away.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well, there was a way to test prophets in those times......what they foretold would come true and their power would be demonstrated in tangible and real ways, (observed by eye witnesses) in the performance of supernatural fetes. Jehovah fulfilled that criteria, from Elijah through to the apostles.

The funny thing about any of those fake gods is that they are not even believed in anymore....but the puppet master behind those gods, (their creator) the only other god in existence who solicits our worship, still does and is no less busy making recruits. These days he is more likely to make God disappear with science rather than religion......he makes science appear NOT to be a religion. But since science (particularly evolution) involves so much "belief" in what cannot be proven, it is clearly just another "belief system".

Jehovah has never 'gone out of fashion' or disappeared from existence even though many have tried to kill him off.....his written instructions to humankind have also experienced many attempts to destroy it.....but it still remains in this world a "best seller". Go figure.

You may have forgotten about a whole lot of us out here in the real world --- who don't believe in either the top Good Guy or the top Bad Guy.l

Oh, and you might have noticed that whatever it is those mythical beings might be fighting about -- it ain't happening here. Or do you have evidence of a recent battlegroung you'd like to show us?

 

[leroy]

Here's a short intro to the Great Oxidation Event.
The oxygen would have been first in the ocean, of course, because all life was water based then. Oceans and atmosphere exchange gases so that the oxygen was introduced into the atmosphere eventually and exchanged for carbon dioxide. The loss of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere caused an ice age. The poisonous oxygen, the cold and sinking sea levels killed about 75% of all species including all primitive cells that couldn't handle oxygen.

Really? And none of these simple cells lived in the deep ocean or underground or in any ecosystem free of oxigen?

None of these cells evolved tolerance to oxigen?

 

[leroy]

@leroy we already know that this question will be dodged in a variety of ways....brushed off....ridiculed....with accusations of ignorance and even lying......but there will never be a substantiated answer to your OP.....because they have no real evidence for their first premise. It is a “best guess” and they know it....no matter how much they protest, their house of cards has no real foundations. They actually have a bigger fairy story than those who believe in an Intelligent Creator.

Their ‘education’ is as much of an ‘indoctrination’ as they believe we have.....but how dare we insult their ‘gods’ and their ‘scripture’! LOL

Agree.

 

[leroy]

yet despite the cry
Where is the "simple life", where are the "simple cells"?
It seems he didn't actually bother to check whether any exist or not, they do and are more numerous than multicellular life

You dont understand...


The issue is that "naturalists" predict that ancient cells where much simpler than modern cells

I am simply asking where are these simple cells

 

[Valjean]

Are you serious? Who in their right mind wants to prove that the beloved theory of evolution is false? They would be run out of every institution of science as heretics! The only thing they seek to disprove is the other fella’s scenario on ‘how’ it happened...not ‘that’ it happened.

Scientists would.
Attempting to disprove a hypothesis is part of the process. It's how science works.
Any hypothesis that isn't tested isn't going to be taken seriously.

Creationists come in many colours and many of them fly in the face of real science. There is a way to mesh science and the Bible with the same method that science uses....observation and interpretation of evidence. It’s all in the way we interpret Genesis.
The Creation account meshes quote comfortably with what science knows, as opposed to what science assumes.

The biblical account does not mesh with the scientific account at all. Nor does it comport with everyday experience or even commonsense.

 

[leroy]

I dont think @Deeje actually asked a question but rather just made a statement.

As for single celled species, prokaryotes are estimated to have shown up 3.8 billion years ago and have evolved little
Single celled eukaryotes are only about a billion years younger

So the first cells where as complex as modern cells? Is that your claim? Answer yes or no

 

[leroy]

So, what is creationisms answer to @leroy 's questions?

Creationism don't require the existance of "simple cells"

 

[robocop (actually)]

So basically what current abiogenesis hypothesis tell us is that life was originally “simple”(simpler than modern unicellular organisms) and evolved to become the complex life forms that we see today….

So my question is: where is the “simple life” supposedly eukaryotes evolve from prokaryotes but we still have prokaryotes today, multicellular organisms evolved from unicellular organisms but we still have unicellular organisms today, land animals evolved from marine animals but we still have marine animals today, complex eyes/brains/feathers etc. evolved from simpler organs, but we still have simple organs today.

So if complex cells evolved from simpler cells, where are these simple cells? Modern cells have all sorts of complex systems and molecular machinery inside, but supposedly the first cell was too simple and had none of this complex stuff.

Note that natural selection doesn’t “what” to increase complexity, NS what’s to optimize the viability of an organism, it is perfectly reasonable and likely to say that at least in some environments “simple cells” didn’t had any selective pressure to become more complex so shouldn’t there be some populations of simple cells all over the world?

With simple I mean “simple enough to have come in to existence by chance and/or by natural mechanisms.

I am assuming that your view is that ancient cells where much simpler than any modern cell if this is not your view, then you don’t have to answer.

Well in my first two books I threw out atoms and made cells just made of curves. I got them to think - memory, imagination, self-awareness and prediction, by their shape and then I got them to do calculations. They would need to dedicate portions of themselves to things like survival. A conscious thought is when it is thinking and thinking about its thinking and the thought is in the shape of itself. Thoughts could be stored in the walls and pierce walls strategically.

Thoughts and tools were one and the same thing.

 

[Valjean]

It is endless, and it is useless. There must come a time when we admit to ourselves that we can teach nothing to those who adamantly refuse to learn. So why on earth do we keep trying? Religion -- I say this and I mean it -- cherishes unquestioning minds.

To exercise our minds and preserve our capacity to reason?

 

[Deeje]

You may have forgotten about a whole lot of us out here in the real world --- who don't believe in either the top Good Guy or the top Bad Guy.l

That is up to all of you...but remember that Jesus said "few" are on the road to life (Matthew 7:13-14)....that means that the "many" are on the wrong road, which is a dead end....but its up to us what road we choose. Its a cramped and narrow road with obstacles and restrictions, verses a multi-laned super highway where you can do whatever you wish. What do you think the majority would choose?

Oh, and you might have noticed that whatever it is those mythical beings might be fighting about -- it ain't happening here. Or do you have evidence of a recent battlegroung you'd like to show us?

This world is the battleground with two gods vying for our worship....no matter what we choose to believe, only one is the true God, offering the truth (often an inconvenient one because it challenges our perception of freedom) and the other is a pretender, whose MO is clever deception designed to entrap even those who consider themselves to be well educated and beyond any attempt to manipulate their thinking. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 1 Corinthians 3:18-20)

What we are witnessing right now is a dramatic shift in the way the world will be governed. We are being set up for a new form of rulership. Democracy is showing itself to be yet another failed system of humans ruling other humans, but the old adage, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" has never been far from all the failed systems that have gone before.

The Bible predicted all of these world powers from Babylon through to the present day.....this is the "time of the end", prophesied by Daniel 500 years before Christ was even born. There are no more human rulerships in his prophesy beyond the present world powers. The biggest battle is not far away and it will involve every nation on earth (Daniel 2:44).....you can believe it or not...but this is what the Bible foretells.