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WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Catholics follow the listing and wording in the Decalogue from Deut. in which the first three pertain to God.
Sure, and I think that also is supported in Jesus' Great Commandment, "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." It is the 1st commandment, which encapsulates the first 3 of the older Decalogue, that the 2nd commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself", is dependent upon. The Love of God is the source from which the love of others flows.

That said however, doctrinal quibbelings about what "graven images" means however misses the point. I'm thinking the Iconoclastic Controversy, as an example. That's quibbling over the letter of the law, as much as this entire thread in the OP is about quibbling over which exact day is the right one to worship on.

All that is another form of legalism. I take rather the intent of what Jesus meant to summarize everything in the OT in the Two Greatest Commandments, into the higher, truer and greater principle of Love. It's the "spirit of the law" and not the "letter of the law" that matters, in other words.
Without Hebrew Scripture there would be no Christian Scripture.
I said they are not equals, and that is true. I did not say they played no role in the development of the more subtle, more mature, more sophisticated understanding of the spiritual way of life that Jesus taught.

It's like saying without elementary school, you would not have graduated highschool and moved on to college. That would be a true statement. But elementary school is not equal in depth and understanding and practice to college level understandings of life and reality. The perception of a 5 year old, is not equal to the perception and understanding of the 50 year old.

When I say they are not equal, that means you cannot take what Moses said as equal to what Jesus said. Jesus' understanding supersedes Moses', in the Christian view. Take for instance this,

"You have heard it said, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you, if anyone slaps you on the cheek, turn to him the other also."​

He is quoting the OT law from Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; and Deut. 19:21, and says "BUT I say unto you..." In other words, what I say is a higher, better, and truer way than what Moses taught you.

As I said, the NT and the OT, are not equals. The NT transcends the OT, including the good bits or the "weightier matters of the law", as Jesus called them, and builds upon those as basic principles, all the while discarding the old, outgrown, legalistic rule/role based righteousness of an externalized form of religious practice. Jesus was about teaching the internal realization of the spiritual heart of true religion, which is to "love God and love your neighbor as yourself".

The legalist says Moses and Jesus are equal. The message of NT Grace is that Jesus is to be listened to first, as he taught the "better way." Do you carry the raft upon your back after you have already crossed the river? Do you treat the books you used in grade school as equal source material to your college books?

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."​
This is not "doing away with the law", this is superseding it, integrating it, becoming it, graduating from the 'righteousness' one attempts to find through the externalized forms of law written in stone, to the law "written upon the tablets of the heart". "You have heard it said... but I say unto you..."
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I suppose about 200 scriptures to answer is a bit of a shut down for me. Maybe I can answer some of them but in this post I will just ask about Matt 19
Yea I have studied these scriptures in detail for myself Brian asking for Gods guideline and claiming Gods promises. We have all been taught lies in Sunday school. Its best to study the bible for your self claiming Gods promises in John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; 1 John 2:27. God wants to be our guide and teacher according to the new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12.
Matt 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.” So Jesus left out the commandment that says don't covet but I suppose that is covered with the adultery and stealing commandments really, (coveting our neighbour's goods is stealing them in our heart just as lusting after someone is adultery in our heart) Jesus also left out the first 4 commandments. Do you think that Jesus meant that the first 4 commandments are not necessary to enter life and if not, why not?
Context here is to the rich Jewish ruler. Where he says to Jesus "what must I do to be saved?" The Jews as a people mostly in the time of Jesus obeyed the first four commandments as there duty of love to God as a people but generally failed in keeping the second six commandments of loving their neighbor as their self. Jesus here did not quote the first four commandments of the 10 commandments and the last commandment. The last commandments Jesus did not quote because the rich young ruler was rich it possibly was not coveting anything because he had everything he desired. Jesus wanted to teach the rich young ruler however that he loves His riches more than God and told him to go sell everything he had and come and follow him. The rich young ruler then realized that he loved his riches more than God and went away sorrowful.

If you compare these scriptures with the same question asked by the Pharisees (Lawyer) "what must I do to be saved" in Luke 10:25-28 Jesus answers the same question asked by the rich young ruler by asking the Lawyer (expert in Gods law) "what is written in the law, how so you read it?" The Pharisee said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." Notice same question slightly different answers. To the rich young ruler Jesus quotes part of the 10 commandments and says this do and live. Here the same question with the Lawyer answers to love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as your self. Jesus says "You have answered right: this do, and you will live." This is because loving God and our neighbor was known to the Jews as a summary of obedience to Gods 10 commandments. The first four commandments are our duty of love to God and the second six our duty of love to our fellow man and comes from the old testament scriptures in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Jesus quotes these scriptures in Matthew 22:36-40 when one of the Pharisees tempted Jesus saying "Master which is the great commandment in the law?" Notice how Jesus answered him. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That is because Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 showing that these two great commandments of love to God and our fellow man are not separate from obedience to Gods law. Love is expressed by obedience to Gods law. This is why Jesus says at the end in Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Another words loving God and our fellow man is simply a summary of how to obey Gods 10 commandments!

This is what Paul is also stating in Romans 13:8-10 that says " 8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. 9, For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Take Care.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Heb 4:1-12 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.” 6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience,....
According to the scriptures Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11 are warnings given to us showing that Gods people in the wilderness did not enter into Gods rest because they did not believe and obey Gods Word. According to the scriptures in Hebrews 4:1-5 Gods rest is here defined in the the scriptures as the "seventh day" Sabbath created from the foundation of the world. Lets look at the scriptures...
  • HEBREWS 4:1-11 [1], LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT. [2], FOR TO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT. [3], For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works. 5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST. [6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief.
KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5
  • Hebrews 4:6 Some must enter into Gods seventh day Sabbath rest but those who did not believe did not enter into Gods' rest
  • Hebrews 4:2 Because unto us was the gospel preached as well us unto them but they did not believe
  • Hebrews 4:3 We who believe (present tense) enter into God's rest from the foundation of the world
  • Hebrews 4:4 Reference of Hebrews 4:3 is to the Gods' Sabbath rest of the "seventh day" (Genesis 2:1-3)
  • Hebrews 4:4-5 God's rest is the seventh day Sabbath of creation that we enter into by faith (Genesis 2:1-3)
NOTE: The context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").
  • [6], SEEING THEREFORE IT REMAINS THAT SOME MUST ENTER THEREIN, AND THEY TO WHOM IT WAS FIRST PREACHED ENTERED NOT IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF: [7], AGAIN, HE LIMITS A CERTAIN DAY, SAYING IN DAVID, TO DAY, AFTER SO LONG A TIME; AS IT IS SAID, TODAY IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS. [8], FOR IF JOSHUA HAD GIVEN THEM REST, THEN WOULD HE NOT AFTERWARD HAVE SPOKEN OF ANOTHER DAY.
Reference back to what David is saying in reference to “another day
  • Psalms 95:2-11 [2], Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise to him with psalms. [3], For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods. [4], In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. [5], The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land. [6], O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. [7], For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: [9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. [10], Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: [11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Note the link back to what Hebrews 3-4 is quoting....
  • Psalms 95:2-7 is worshiping the only true creator God of heaven and earth. To day if you hear His voice…. (“This is the another day” in Hebrews 4:7-8 spoken of by David ….. for if Joshua had given them rest – (promised land) David would not have spoken of “another day” saying “To day if you hear His voice harden not your hearts as in the provocation in the wilderness. Gods’ people were still hardening their hearts in sin and unbelief)
  • Psalms 95:8 "Harden not your hearts as in the provocation in the wilderness (see Hebrews 3:8)
  • Psalms 95:9 "When your fathers tempted me 40 years" (see Hebrews 3:9)
  • Psalms 95:10 40 years Gods' people did not know God's ways (Hebrews 3:10)
  • Psalms 95:11 Because God's people did not know God's ways they did not enter His rest (Hebrews 3:11)
The another day is therefore the day not to harden our hearts and believe and obey Gods Word (the gospel).
  • [9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].
KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.” According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4. Both the Aramaic and the Greek of Hebrews 4:9 means that the Sabbath is left behind for the bible of God to keep.
Col 2:16 may be about annual sabbaths in the feast days, but it says nothing about the weekly sabbaths being binding on all Christians today.
No one said that Colossians 2:16 means that that Christians have to keep the Sabbath. People try to cherry pick this scripture out of context to try and argue we no longer need to keep the Sabbath which is not true.
Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
I don't see anything there about the Sabbath being binding on Christians.

Matthew 12:1-12 say nothing about Christians having to keep the Sabbath. It speaks about Jews and how they were keeping the Sabbath.
Matt 24:20 also says nothing about Christian having to keep the Sabbath. It hints that the Sabbath will be kept in Jerusalem at the time of the destruction of the Temple and in any later fulfillment of Jesus prophecy and it will be hard to flee then. This might be because of a number of reasons in Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Actually the public transport shuts down on the Sabbath in Jerusalem.
Go look up the Greek words of "man" in Mark 2:27. It is a Greek word ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos | G444) and means human beings not Jews. Jesus is saying in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for human beings or mankind not the Jews. There was no Jew, no Moses, no Israel when God made the Sabbath for mankind. There was only Adam and Eve who were created in the image of God on the sixth day of the week according to Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3.

Matthew 12:1-12 is Jesus teaching us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. If Jesus was teaching us that Gods Sabbath is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest then there would be no point Him teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath. Tet again not a single mention of Jesus to His Apostles accept Jesus teaching them how to obey the Sabbath that they continued keeping well after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Matthew 22:36-40 says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Love therefore is expressed through obedience to Gods law not by breaking it.

Take Care.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Yeshua also didn't list "thou shalt have no other gods before me", or "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image", or "thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain". He listed how to love one's neighbor, and apparently thought it goes without saying that one should love God with your whole heart and mind, which would include the above. But, apparently, he left the door open for those without eyes to see, or ears to hear, that they can choose between "good" and "evil", which is the religion of the "serpent" (Genesis 3:3-4), and of course that religion surely leads to death. One must keep the Sabbath to worship on God's mountain. This is inclusive of "all the nations"/Gentiles

Isaiah 56:5-7 I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD to minister to Him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be His servants— all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant— 7I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”…

Isa 56:5-7 is talking to the Jews in the OT times and those under the Covenant of Moses. We can tell that by reading from Isa 56:1-8
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yea I have studied these scriptures in detail for myself Brian asking for Gods guideline and claiming Gods promises. We have all been taught lies in Sunday school. Its best to study the bible for your self claiming Gods promises in John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; 1 John 2:27. God wants to be our guide and teacher according to the new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12.

Context here is to the rich Jewish ruler. Where he says to Jesus "what must I do to be saved?" The Jews as a people mostly in the time of Jesus obeyed the first four commandments as there duty of love to God as a people but generally failed in keeping the second six commandments of loving their neighbor as their self. Jesus here did not quote the first four commandments of the 10 commandments and the last commandment. The last commandments Jesus did not quote because the rich young ruler was rich it possibly was not coveting anything because he had everything he desired. Jesus wanted to teach the rich young ruler however that he loves His riches more than God and told him to go sell everything he had and come and follow him. The rich young ruler then realized that he loved his riches more than God and went away sorrowful.

Jesus wants to lead the rich young ruler to perfection, but I don't know if your assumption about the reason the 1st 4 commands are left out is true.


If you compare these scriptures with the same question asked by the Pharisees (Lawyer) "what must I do to be saved" in Luke 10:25-28 Jesus answers the same question asked by the rich young ruler by asking the Lawyer (expert in Gods law) "what is written in the law, how so you read it?" The Pharisee said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." Notice same question slightly different answers. To the rich young ruler Jesus quotes part of the 10 commandments and says this do and live. Here the same question with the Lawyer answers to love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as your self. Jesus says "You have answered right: this do, and you will live." This is because loving God and our neighbor was known to the Jews as a summary of obedience to Gods 10 commandments. The first four commandments are our duty of love to God and the second six our duty of love to our fellow man and comes from the old testament scriptures in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Well loving God and neighbour is a summary of all the law and prophets, not just the 10 Commandments.

Jesus quotes these scriptures in Matthew 22:36-40 when one of the Pharisees tempted Jesus saying "Master which is the great commandment in the law?" Notice how Jesus answered him. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That is because Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 showing that these two great commandments of love to God and our fellow man are not separate from obedience to Gods law. Love is expressed by obedience to Gods law. This is why Jesus says at the end in Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Another words loving God and our fellow man is simply a summary of how to obey Gods 10 commandments!

Again, loving God and fellow man is a summary of all the law and prophets, not just the 10 Commandments.

This is what Paul is also stating in Romans 13:8-10 that says " 8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. 9, For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Take Care.

Paul is talking about loving our neighbour and so only includes commandments about our neighbour specifically and then leaves it open after that by saying "and if there be any other commandment".
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Jesus wants to lead the rich young ruler to perfection, but I don't know if your assumption about the reason the 1st 4 commands are left out is true.
I did not provide an assumption I provided scripture. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness.
Well loving God and neighbour is a summary of all the law and prophets, not just the 10 Commandments.
No its not all the scripture quotes to do with the first two commandments of loving God and our neighbor as our self are linked directly to Gods 10 commandments.
Again, loving God and fellow man is a summary of all the law and prophets, not just the 10 Commandments.
Again that is not true. The first two commandments of loving God and our neighbor as our self are linked directly to Gods 10 commandments.
Paul is talking about loving our neighbour and so only includes commandments about our neighbour specifically and then leaves it open after that by saying "and if there be any other commandment".
No he isn't when Paul is saying "and if there be any other commandments" is referring to the 5th commandment which he did not quote in regards to loving our fellow man and directly showing in Romans 13:8-10 that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summarizing obedience to those commandments in Gods 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our fellow man.

Take care.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
  • [9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].
KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.” According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4. Both the Aramaic and the Greek of Hebrews 4:9 means that the Sabbath is left behind for the bible of God to keep.

No one said that Colossians 2:16 means that that Christians have to keep the Sabbath. People try to cherry pick this scripture out of context to try and argue we no longer need to keep the Sabbath which is not true.

Go look up the Greek words of "man" in Mark 2:27. It is a Greek word ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos | G444) and means human beings not Jews. Jesus is saying in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for human beings or mankind not the Jews. There was no Jew, no Moses, no Israel when God made the Sabbath for mankind. There was only Adam and Eve who were created in the image of God on the sixth day of the week according to Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3.

Matthew 12:1-12 is Jesus teaching us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. If Jesus was teaching us that Gods Sabbath is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest then there would be no point Him teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath. Tet again not a single mention of Jesus to His Apostles accept Jesus teaching them how to obey the Sabbath that they continued keeping well after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Matthew 22:36-40 says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Love therefore is expressed through obedience to Gods law not by breaking it.

Take Care.

Heb 4:5..........................“They shall not enter my rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also urested from his works as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

The Jews in the wilderness did keep the Sabbath days but did not enter God's rest due to disobedience and there remains still a sabbath rest/or sabbath keeping for us Christians unless we also miss out through disobedience, so we strive to not miss out and to enter that rest.
Joshua did not give the Israelites rest and that rest is still to come. It seems the Sabbath day was instituted as a symbol of that rest to come, with God at the end when God has finished His work.
God ceased from His creating work and so rested on day 7 but God did not stop working and keeps working now.
But of course, just because God blessed the 7th day and made it holy that does not mean that anyone was keeping the Sabbath before the 10 Commandments.
So anyway, in context Heb 4:9 is not saying that Christians should be keeping the Sabbath.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I did not provide an assumption I provided scripture. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness.

No God's Word does not teach lawlessness but that is not in dispute even if you think I teach lawlessness.
Jesus provided laws to keep to gain life and did not include keeping the Sabbath and others.
You did assume things in the post you gave. You have a habit of assuming things, usually that everything is related back to the 10 commandments.

Again that is not true. The first two commandments of loving God and our neighbor as our self are linked directly to Gods 10 commandments.

The scripture provided by you says that all the law and prophets hang on love for God and neighbour, so we should not shrink that to keeping the 10 commandments.


No he isn't when Paul is saying "and if there be any other commandments" is referring to the 5th commandment which he did not quote in regards to loving our fellow man and directly showing in Romans 13:8-10 that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summarizing obedience to those commandments in Gods 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our fellow man.

Take care.

It is interesting that when the scriptures say that love is the fulfillment of the law you end up saying that keeping the law is how we show love, and the law you are referring to is always the 10 commandments.
Jesus of course takes Christians further than the negative commands of don't kill, don't steal etc. We can't really say that we have loved our neighbour by not killing them or not stealing from them etc. Love neighbour is a lot more than the 10 commandments and does not include all the 10 commandments I guess.
So someone who does not know the law can fulfill the law by loving his neighbour and a Christian can do the same also and should if their righteousness is to be greater than the Pharisees.
 

jbg

Active Member
Hey guys

Just wondering where is the scripture that says Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus?

May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.
For me Shabbat is Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Isa 56:5-7 is talking to the Jews in the OT times and those under the Covenant of Moses. We can tell that by reading from Isa 56:1-8
I don't know, it seems to revolve around "preserving justice", and to "do righteousness", which is the "tested stone" of "Zion" (Isaiah 28:16, in leau of the "covenant with death", the false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness (Isaiah 28:18), and is to include the "foreigners who join themselves to the LORD"... "who hold fast My covenant" and "who keep from "profaning the sabbath". Your slant on the writing seems to be a little mislaid.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
For me Shabbat is Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.
Does that mean that "Sunday" dawns on the eve of the Sabbath? Then when did "Christ" arise (Matthew 28:1)? Are you trying to kill the Sunday morning resurrection dogma?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The scripture provided by you says that all the law and prophets hang on love for God and neighbour, so we should not shrink that to keeping the 10 commandments.
It should encompass keeping the Commandments. If you want to follow the "scribes" of Jeremiah 8:8, you can include manmade edicts of men, and start chopping of body parts of children, and releasing convicted felons from prison, well, that would be on the person involved, and his idea of "love".
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I don't know, it seems to revolve around "preserving justice", and to "do righteousness", which is the "tested stone" of "Zion" (Isaiah 28:16, in leau of the "covenant with death", the false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness (Isaiah 28:18), and is to include the "foreigners who join themselves to the LORD"... "who hold fast My covenant" and "who keep from "profaning the sabbath". Your slant on the writing seems to be a little mislaid.

What does all that mean?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
What does all that mean?


Isaiah 56: 1Thus says the LORD,
“Preserve justice and do righteousness, (Isaiah 28:15-18)
For My salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.

2“How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

3Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”

4For thus says the LORD,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,

5To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

6“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Creation in 7 days would NOT mean 7 days are a week.
The concepts of the week and the weekend likely exist because of Genesis and its six says of creation and one of rest.

We don't see people ask why this one creation myth out of hundreds contains a timeline, or why this god needed several days or why it needed to rest. Those features appear in this creation myth for a reason, and it's not difficult to suss out what that reason was, a very practical one. It was the priests who needed man to put down his hoe or shepherd's staff periodically and make a trip to the temple on a regular basis, and so, invented a new unit of time and a new rule for living to accommodate that need.
We know the Jews associate a "day" as the period of sunset to sunset, but it does not mean God views a "day" as the same.
There is insufficient reason to believe this god exists. The authors of scripture were likely the source of those words, and there is no reason to think that they intended to them to mean anything different from whatever those words meant to everybody else then. The story, like all other religions' creation myths, was just another erroneous guess at how this all got here. The science tells us in which ways they are wrong, and the remaining religions with creation myths attempt to reconcile that without using the word error, and so take unwarranted poetic license and claim metaphor and allegory, but they are not those, either. Those are specific literary forms with criteria not met by these myths.
Many scriptures have been provided to show that the Law covenant ended with the "cross".
The principles of humanism - skepticism and reason applied to evidence and to compassion - are timeless, and never need to be updated. There are no covenants, and there are no laws.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It should encompass keeping the Commandments. If you want to follow the "scribes" of Jeremiah 8:8, you can include manmade edicts of men, and start chopping of body parts of children, and releasing convicted felons from prison, well, that would be on the person involved, and his idea of "love".

True, and does this include keeping the Saturday as our sabbath?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Isaiah 56: 1Thus says the LORD,
“Preserve justice and do righteousness, (Isaiah 28:15-18)
For My salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.

2“How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

3Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”

4For thus says the LORD,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,

5To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

6“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant

So why is this a message specifically for Christians and not the Jews in Isaiah's time?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The scripture provided by you says that all the law and prophets hang on love for God and neighbour, so we should not shrink that to keeping the 10 commandments.
Exactly. And not just shrinking that to the 10 commandments, but to the 4th one above the rest. Do you hear these 7th day groups beat others over the head about having a painting of Jesus in the church somewhere? Yet, cant they quibble over what "graven images" means in the 2nd commandment?

No, it's really not about the 4th commandment itself, Rather it is because they found that they can use that to distinguish themselves from others in order to advertise themselves as the true Christians in the marketplace of religions. A very typical thing that was going on in America around the turn of the 20th century with all these little "restored gospel" churches popping up everywhere: JWs, Pentecostals; Christian Science; 7th Day Adventists; Mormons; and a host of others. It's all coming from the same place, and all seeking to set themselves apart from the rest with some special gimmick or other.

What's even more ironic is why is it that they only seize upon the 1st set of 10 commandments that Moses himself destroyed, and not the 2nd "restored" set of 10 commandments which were written in stone by God, and were the ones carried in the ark of the covenant? I would think those would be the more important ones, since they were kept in the temple itself, right?

Why aren't they beating others over the head for these restored 10 commandments found in Exodus 34? Why is there nothing but stone silence from them over these?

1. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land.​
2. Do not make any idols.​
3. Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread.​
4. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me.​
5. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.​
6. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest.​
7. Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.​
8. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.​
9. Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.​
10. Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.​

Clearly, there is something gravely inconsistent in their argument here. I believe I know the reason why. It's a gimmick, an advertising hook to distinguish themselves from the other Christian groups in the marketplace of religion to get customers. "Our deity can help your wife be more fertile", "The true Christians in the early church spoke in tongues!"; "Our deity tells us the right day of the week to worship on in order to be saved!", and so forth.

It's all the same thing. They are simply hawking their religious wares to sell their versions of salvation for customers in a consumerist culture. "If I join the right church, I'll be saved". Buying salvation, or "earning it" by joining the right group, doing the right rituals, saying the right words, believing the right beliefs, etc. It's all a salvation of works. Shortcuts to to God, climbing in another way.

It is interesting that when the scriptures say that love is the fulfillment of the law you end up saying that keeping the law is how we show love, and the law you are referring to is always the 10 commandments.
This is something I note in their word choices. To "love God", is translated in the minds of the legalists to mean, love is the act of strict obedience. Love is a "duty". It is not an attitude of compassion. It is not an unconditional position of of grace and forgiveness and welcoming.

They see God as accepting one's claims of loving Him, by proof that He will accept. And those proofs are how well you adhere to the commandments (cherry picked as those are). God accepts them by how well they measure up to obeying the scripture's laws, in the Old Testament in particular.

So someone who does not know the law can fulfill the law by loving his neighbour and a Christian can do the same also and should if their righteousness is to be greater than the Pharisees.
Exactly correct! You don't need to know the first thing about Moses, the Old Testament, or even about the apostles and the New Testament, to fulfill the law through Love.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...​

The above is something these 7th day above all else groups need to cut out of their Bibles with a razor blade in order to keep their theology consistent. "Obeying the law", has nothing to do with the letter of the law. It has to do with attitudes and actions towards others.

How could the Gentiles "do by nature the things required by the law", if they aren't observing Saturday worship, according to these 7th days preachers? They couldn't. Yet, Paul says they are. "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts," without observing Saturday worship. Period.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So why is this a message specifically for Christians and not the Jews in Isaiah's time?
This message was for both Judah and Ephraim (dispersed Israel), as well as "others" (Gentiles). (Isaiah 56:8). Israel is "scattered among the nations/Gentiles" and will be "gathered" out (Ezekiel 36:19-24) and will be joined with Judah, the Jews, and settled on the land given to Jacob, under the rule of king David (Ezekiel 37:15-28). At that time those of the "nations"/Gentiles who survive will confess their following the "falsehoods" of their fathers (Jeremiah 16:19), and then agreeing to be servants of Jacob (Isaiah 14:1-2). As for survivors of the "day of LORD", according to Joel 2:31-32, it is with respect to those on Mount Zion (those that keep the Commandments and the sabbath) and in Jerusalem, the Jews. (Isaiah 56:6-8).
New American Standard Bible Isaiah 56:8
The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, “I will yet gather others to them, to those already gathered.”
 
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