WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[3rdAngel]

If Pharoah humbled himself before God and decided to celebrate the Sabbath, then his Sabbath, IF HE IS FOLLOWING THE BIBLICAL COMMAND, will ROTATE according to the Egyptians' 10 DAY week. This allows it to fall on ANY day according to the Hebrew calendar. The Romans also had a 10 day week before they switched to a 7 day week. If they had been following the word of God, then their Sabbath Day would have rotated just like the Egyptians. Even so, it may have not have fell on the same day, as the Egyptians may have started on a different day then the Romans! If your theory of a "universal observance of the Sabbath starting with creation" is correct, it's not the DAY the Sabbath is celebrated, but only that the Sabbath be celebrated every 7th day that is important. So celebrating a Sabbath on a Monday or Tuesday would not make their Sabbath celebration ungodly, it would simply make it correct according to their calendar and culture. So, if the Sabbath is for all mankind as you claim, then we can expect the Sabbath to fall on various days of the week, depending on that culture's weekly calendar.

Lets be honest dear friend. I have not posted any theories. I have only posted scripture that are Gods Words not my words that are in disagreement with your words that are not Gods Words and you simply choose not to believe them because your seek to justify sin defined in the scriptures as the transgression of Gods law. Your post here does not make any sense here because it does not follow biblical time given to us by God in Genesis 1:1-31 on a seven day continuous weekly cycle given to us by God in Genesis 1:1-31. So your theory here completely disregards scripture. Why would we follow the Egyptians 10 day week cycle when God tells us there is a seven day weekly cycle in creation and commands us to keep the seventh day as a holy day of rest? That only shows unbelief in Gods Word and does not make any sense.

Does 7 creation days = a 7 day week? Creation in 7 days would NOT mean 7 days are a week. It would simply mean that God created the universe in LESS than a week, if your week is 10 days, and that it took him a little MORE than a week, if your week happens to be 5. The time period for a creative day is simply undefined period in scripture. We know the Jews associate a "day" as the period of sunset to sunset, but it does not mean God views a "day" as the same. So it could mean the Jewish sunset to sunset, but it doesn't have to mean the Jewish sunset to sunset, and Israel did not exist at the time of creation.

According to the scriptures there is seven days in a week (see Genesis 1:1-31; Genesis 2:1-3). The time period for a creative day is defined in Genesis 1:1-5 where it is stated that the darkness and the light make up the first day. So your claims here are not based on what the scriptures say. The Jew associate a day starting from sunset to sunset because that is what the scriptures state in Genesis 1. It is true that the Jews were not present at creation. However God was present at creation and God gave the creation account in Genesis to Moses to give to His people.

Your argument is based ENTIRELY on following Jewish culture, but a biblical day is not based on Jewish culture, it is based on the WORD OF GOD. The word of God does not define the term "week", it does not define what the first day or last day of a "week" is. However, it does tell us how the Jews adopted the word of God to their calendar. This may seem trivial, but it's important. If we are to be Judeo-centric, then we must follow the Hebrew calendar. Christians will spiritually point to Jerusalem much the same way Muslims physically point to Mecca. However, if we are God -centric, then it's pretty clear each culture is free to use its own calendar, allowing the 1st and 7th day to start and fall where they may. Do you see and understand the difference here? I'm not arguing against a 7 day week, nor am I saying a 7 day week is incorrect. I'm just saying a 7 day week that falls on Saturday is not compelled.

No. That claims is not true at all. My posts shared in this OP are what the scriptures say word for word. What is it from the scriptures that have been quoted to you in my posts you refuse to address or respond to that you disagree with. Lets discuss them in detail as our salvation depends on if we believe and follow what Gods Word says and I am sure none of us want to be of the group Jesus says "depart from me you who work iniquity (sin), I never knew you" (Matthew 7:21-23). Our discussion would be more profitable if you would address my post content and the scriptures provided in them that are in disagreement with you rather than ignoring them and micro-quoting my posts without addressing anything in my posts that have been shared with you. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures there is seven days in a week stated in Genesis (see Genesis 1:1-31; Genesis 2:1-3). The time period for a creative day is defined in Genesis 1:1-5 where it is stated that the darkness and the light make up the first day. So your claims here are not based on what the scriptures say. Your argument that the seventh day is not from sunset Friday our time to sunset Saturday our time is not supported in scripture or history. Gods people including Jesus and all the Apostles have been keeping the Sabbath for over 4000 years. So I think they know what day is the seventh day of the week and what day the creation Sabbath starts and ends.

Almost, but not quite correct. The Lord's Day is NOT a reference to "Sunday worship". When you say "Sunday worship" it is easy for critics like 2ndPillar to disparage the Christian church as worshiping Sunday and to make false associations with "the day of the sun" and bring in nonsense about Constantine It's a favored argument of Sabbath keepers, but has no basis in fact. Scripture clearly shows that Christians held their convocation on the first day of the week in honor of Christ's resurrection. The celebration continues up to the present day.

Sorry I am not following what you are saying here. What has no basis in fact? The OP is asking for scripture that says that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. - There is none. You are only making my point here that people followed man-made teachings and traditions that have led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. History also proves that Gods people have been keeping God 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath from the days of Jesus unbroken to this present day. Still the fact remains and question remains. Who do we believe and follow; God or men? There is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus now is there!

We can see this in the writing of 2nd century Christians Chapter XXVI.—No salvation to the Jews except through Christ. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, mid 2nd century): And I replied, “I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus: ‘I, the Lord God, have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house.’2013 And again: ‘Lift up a standard2014 for the people; for, lo, the Lord has made it heard unto the end of the earth. Say ye to the daughters of Zion, Behold, thy Saviour has come; having His reward, and His work before His face: and He shall call it a holy nation, redeemed by the Lord. (Justin Martyr)

Cyprian (~210 - 258 AD), born a pagan to a wealth family, who later converted. became a bishop in Carthage, and died a martyr because he would not denounce Christ and accept the Roman gods, says this:

For in respect of the observance of the eighth day of the Jewish circumcision of the flesh, a sacrament was given beforehand in shadow and in usage; but when Christ came, it was fulfilled in truth. For because the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, was to be that on which the Lord should rise again, and should quicken us, and give us circumcision of the spirit, the eighth day, that is the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord's Day, went before in the figure; which figure ceased when by and by the truth came and spiritual circumcision was given to us — Cyprian, Letter LVIII

So the Lord's Day is the early Church's reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which just happened to fall on the 1st day of the week, which we associate with Sunday. And as Justyn Martyr points out, these gentile Christians did not keep the Sabbath, were not circumcised, and did not observe the feast, even though they were free to do so.

This section of your post only supports what my OP is saying. Notice here that you have not provided a single scripture, that says that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. - There is none. You are only making my point here that people followed man-made teachings and traditions that have led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. History also proves that Gods people have been keeping God 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath from the days of Jesus unbroken to this present day. All you have posted here are the teachings and traditions of men that did not believe or follow what Gods Word says in order to justify sin defined in the scriptures as breaking Gods law (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4). The early Church was made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers and yes they all kept the Sabbath just like Jesus and the Apostles. Let me ask you again dear friend the question you are avoiding; "Where is the scripture, that says that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus? - There is none!

Take Care.

 

[2ndpillar]

Many scriptures have been provided to show that the Law covenant ended with the "cross". That includes the 4th of the ten Words (commandments).

No scripture says we are commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day. That would fall under a doctrine of men if indeed it is commanded, but I don't think it is commanded.
Sunday, for many people is a convenient day for worship, since most people do not work on the Weekend. It became a traditional day for many.

However, many religions have days of worship, midweek, and weekends.
Some, almost daily. The day is not important to them.

You use the word "scriptures" very loosely. The "scriptures" of the Gentile church are generally taken from the NT canon submitted in 367 A.D., on the pagan feast day of Astarte/Easter, by Athanasius, who also pushed the false dogma of the Trinity at the Council of Nicaea, which was convened by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", the Roman emperor Constantine. Your NT "scripture" contains the message (tare seed) of the "enemy"/devil mixed with the message (good seed) of the "son of man" (Matthew 13:30 & 37-42), planted in the same "field"/NT. The tares, the result of the tare seed, the false message of the gospel of grace/lawlessness, get to get "gathered" "first" and thrown into the "furnace of fire" (great tribulation). (Matthew 13:30). The "Sabbath", the resting on the 7th day of the week, is a sign between God and his people. The people of the prince of Greece (Daniel 10:20) have no need to keep the Sabbath. Keep in mind that Greece is destined to be "crushed" (Daniel 2:44-45).

 

[3rdAngel]

Again, for brevity...

I don't recall Paul saying some laws were "shadow laws", and others were not. Can you quote just the scripture please... without commentary.
Paul says, "the Law".
Hebrews 10:1 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come...

Did you not read... Galatians 3:19 Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the offspring should arrive...
until the offspring should arrive

Galatians 3:24-25 - So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian.
now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian

What does that say to you 3rdAngel?
What Law is Paul talking about? The Law, which came into being 430 years later... Galatians 3:17
What Law was that? You know it. Exodus 19:3-6; Exodus 20

Did you read Paul's words I quoted at Colossians 2:14-17?
16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.

Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, because we have died to that which restrained us, in order that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit and not in the old sense by the written code.
7 What, then, are we to say? Is the Law sin? Certainly not! Really, I would not have come to know sin had it not been for the Law. For example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.”
we have been released from the Law

Romans 8:3 - What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son...

It's right there 3rdAngel. The same Law containing the command - Thou should not covet. That is the one Paul says is a "shadow law".


You say, To be under the law here means to be standing before God guilty of sin and death...
Where did you read that, please?
I read... But now we have been released from the Law... Romans 7:6
I also read... For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness. Romans 10:4
Again, I read... By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man+ and to make peace... Ephesians 2:15
...and again, I read, the scriptures I quoted above, in Galatians.

All of these scriptures say the same thing.
You talk about grace, and yet, you don't appear to accept what all these scriptures bear out... namely...
Moreover, it is evident that by law no one is declared righteous with God, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” Now the Law is not based on faith. Rather, “anyone who does these things will live by means of them.” Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us... Galatians 3:11-13

They don't work together, 3rdAngel. You can't accept the weak thing that does not, and cannot accomplish what God wants, and claim to accept what God put in place to accomplish what he wants.
Romans 8:3 - What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son...
Would that not be like someone saying they must have the band aid used to stop them bleeding out, after the surgeon stitched up their wound?

I am not sure if you are SDA, but I think Paul's words apply here.
Romans 10
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. 3 For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.

That's quite serious, would you not agree?
Did you notice, Paul specifically said, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness?

I hope you got the point.
I hope this post makes a difference, because I think you basically are saying the same thing, in your other posts.
So, I don't think there is much more I can add.
I'll still take a look though, in case there is something new.

Did you notice you simply ignored and did not address any of the post content and scriptures, shared with you that are in disagreement with you in posts # 390 linked; post # 391 linked and post # 392 linked? All you have posted here is what you posted earlier and what is already addressed with a detailed scripture response in the linked posts above. Please go re-read the linked posts and address anything you do not agree with section by section as I do with all of your posts showing why I may not agree by providing scripture. You are twisting scripture to promote and justify sin and a teaching of lawlessness. That is something that Gods Word does not teach and is a doctrine of devils designed to keep all those who believe and follow it out of Gods kingdom. We are told to examine ourselves to see is we are in the faith or not in 2 Corinthians 13:5. This is profitable to us because it helps us to understand if we are believing and following Gods Word or not following Gods Word. John tells us in 1 John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Careful dear friend, sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and Gods Word does not teach lawlessness. These are those who do not know God according to the scriptures and need to be born again into God's new covenant promise to be set free from sin through faith and walk in Gods Spirit to love (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 3:3-7; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Galatians 5:16; Matthew 7:13-23; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14). Only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow them instead of seeking to justify sin. There is not a single scripture in all of the bible that says that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has now been abolished and we are now commended to Keep Sunday as a holy day in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings given by Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Jesus says those who follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us to break the commandments of God are not worshiping God and their hearts are far from him. Who then should we believe and follow; God or man? For me only Gods Words are true and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4). Our sins will keep all who knowingly practice them out of Gods kingdom come judgement day (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Take Care.

 

[Brian2]

Thanks. Could you explain it to me please... especially the phrase 'The one who loves me will be loved by my Father'?

The following passage does not tell us that Jesus did not love others who had not kept the commandments from their youth.
Mark 10:20“Teacher,” he replied, “all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.” 22 But the man was saddened by these words and went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth.…

 

[nPeace]

Did you notice you simply ignored and did not address any of the post content and scriptures, shared with you that are in disagreement with you in posts # 390 linked; post # 391 linked and post # 392 linked? All you have posted here is what you posted earlier and what is already addressed with a detailed scripture response in the linked posts above. Please go re-read the linked posts and address anything you do not agree with section by section as I do with all of your posts showing why I may not agree by providing scripture. You are twisting scripture to promote and justify sin and a teaching of lawlessness. That is something that Gods Word does not teach and is a doctrine of devils designed to keep all those who believe and follow it out of Gods kingdom. We are told to examine ourselves to see is we are in the faith or not in 2 Corinthians 13:5. This is profitable to us because it helps us to understand if we are believing and following Gods Word or not following Gods Word. John tells us in 1 John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Careful dear friend, sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and Gods Word does not teach lawlessness. These are those who do not know God according to the scriptures and need to be born again into God's new covenant promise to be set free from sin through faith and walk in Gods Spirit to love (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 3:3-7; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Galatians 5:16; Matthew 7:13-23; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14). Only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow them instead of seeking to justify sin. There is not a single scripture in all of the bible that says that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has now been abolished and we are now commended to Keep Sunday as a holy day in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings given by Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Jesus says those who follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us to break the commandments of God are not worshiping God and their hearts are far from him. Who then should we believe and follow; God or man? For me only Gods Words are true and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4). Our sins will keep all who knowingly practice them out of Gods kingdom come judgement day (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Take Care.

I could not address all you said, because they were basically you quoting scripture and then giving long commentary on your ideas of the texts. There were also repeats of the same thing basically.
So, I addressed your basic argument, which covers everything you said.
If nothing I said, is scripture, there's nothing else I can say.
Take care.

 

[nPeace]

The following passage does not tell us that Jesus did not love others who had not kept the commandments from their youth.
Mark 10:20“Teacher,” he replied, “all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.” 22 But the man was saddened by these words and went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth.…

That's explaining John 14:21? Or are you saying you can't explain it?

 

[Brian2]

Well that claim has no truth in it Brian. I have posted Gods Words which are Gods Word not my words that you deny with your Words that are not Gods. So your argument I guess is with God not me who words you choose not to believe in order to justify your sins *1 John 3:4. So we will agree to disagree on your claims here.

1John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.
This verse has nothing to do with you showing me that the Sabbath is a command that Christians are told to follow.
The above verse is just about accusing me of being a sinner.
James 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Agreed our righteousness comes by faith. However, according to the scriptures if our faith does not have the fruit of obedience then all we have according to James in James 2:17-26 is the dead faith of devils who will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Paul agrees with Jesus stating that faith does not abolish our need to obey what Gods Word says from the heart by saying in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law." Genuine faith therefore believes and obeys what Gods Word says. Anything less is the dead faith of devils and is the fruit of those who need to be born again to walk in God's Spirit (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-9; 1 John 2:3-4 and Galatians 5:16). If we are still practicing known unrepentant sin we do not know God according to the scriptures (see Romans 6:1-23; Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4 and 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and Matthew 7:13-23).

Take Care Brian.

If you see a command there for Christians to obey the Sabbath commandment for Jews then obey it. If you want to share that command with me then do so. But no, you don't do that, because that command does not exist. All you do is accuse others of sinning and being disobedient when you cannot show me what I am disobeying except some wave of the hand pointing to the 10 commandments with an assumption that Christians must obey all of them and must do that in order to be Christians.
Faith establishes the law, true, and Christians obey the requirements of the law through following the Spirit and loving God and neighbour. The New Covenant is not about obeying the letter of the law. The Sabbath was made for me and I decide what I do and do not do on the Sabbath to keep it holy, not you. And what I decide is fine by my Lord whom I need to stand before and give an account of myself to. Who made you a judge of your fellow Christians?
You say that anything less than belief and obedience is the dead faith of devils and so you are speaking against yourself because you sin.

 

[Brian2]

That's explaining John 14:21? Or are you saying you can't explain it?

That explains John 14:21 enough imo.

 

[3rdAngel]

1John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness. This verse has nothing to do with you showing me that the Sabbath is a command that Christians are told to follow. The above verse is just about accusing me of being a sinner. James 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? If you see a command there for Christians to obey the Sabbath commandment for Jews then obey it. If you want to share that command with me then do so. But no, you don't do that, because that command does not exist. All you do is accuse others of sinning and being disobedient when you cannot show me what I am disobeying except some wave of the hand pointing to the 10 commandments with an assumption that Christians must obey all of them and must do that in order to be Christians. Faith establishes the law, true, and Christians obey the requirements of the law through following the Spirit and loving God and neighbour. The New Covenant is not about obeying the letter of the law. The Sabbath was made for me and I decide what I do and do not do on the Sabbath to keep it holy, not you. And what I decide is fine by my Lord whom I need to stand before and give an account of myself to. Who made you a judge of your fellow Christians? You say that anything less than belief and obedience is the dead faith of devils and so you are speaking against yourself because you sin.

Well that is not true. I believe that the scriptures teach that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we commit sin (see James 2:10-11) because that is what the scripture say word for word. Let me ask you again dear friend, Is it a sin to practice committing adultery or lying once God gives us a knowledge of His Word? Tell me if someone professes to be Christians and are living in a life practicing known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God? Here let me help you by adding some scriptures that can help answer this question for you. The bonus question is what law is being discussed in Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 in regards to being sin if broken?

• Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
• Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.
• James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.
• 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
• Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

We are all free to do as we wish. We can believe and follow Gods Word or not believe and follow Gods Word. All I have shared with you is Gods Word. Gods Words are not my words but Gods Word but you do not believe them. I also do not judge you. According to the scriptures and Jesus, we are all not to judge according to outward appearance but we are to judge righteous judgment according to Gods Word *John 7:24. According to the scriptures it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day (John 12:47-48).

According to the scriptures, love is not separate from faith and obedience to Gods Word. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods law and is the fruit of genuine faith and is why Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Paul agrees with Jesus and says that love to our fellow man is simply summing up obeying those commandments in Gods 10 commandments that show us how to love our neighbor as our self. James also agrees with both Jesus and Paul in James 2:8-12 when he says we do not love our fellow man if we break anyone of those commandments that teach us how to love our neighbor. John also is in agreement with Jesus, Paul, and James when he says in 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments" in John 14:15. So none of us can claim to love God or our fellow man dear friend if we do not keep Gods commandments. John says that obeying Gods commandments us how we know that we know God and are following God in 1 John 2:3-4.

Sorry dear friend but Gods Word does not teach lawlessness.

Take Care.

 

[Brian2]

Well that is not true. I believe that the scriptures teach that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we commit sin (see James 2:10-11) because that is what the scripture say word for word.

Where?
James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, i“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, l“Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Let me ask you again dear friend, Is it a sin to practice committing adultery or lying once God gives us a knowledge of His Word? Tell me if someone professes to be Christians and are living in a life practicing known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God? Here let me help you by adding some scriptures that can help answer this question for you. The bonus question is what law is being discussed in Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 in regards to being sin if broken?

• Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
• Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.
• James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.
• 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
• Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is not up to us to judge whether a person is saved or not just because that person is sinning while a believer.
All Christians do that and we don't go from being saved to not being saved to being saved to not being saved etc as we confess our sins and repent and then sin again and then confess our sins and repent etc.
Have you had a sin in your life that just remains there even after years of trying to get rid of it? I guess not.
After a while you can begin to think that you aren't a real Christians and after a while you can give up your efforts to stop that sin because it is just dragging you down.
You might say that I was an unrepentant sinner at that time and not saved but God was faithful and removed that sin from my life.

You seem to pick out little bits of passages, where it says commandments or where it mentions a couple of commandments from the 10 Commandments and then say that the passage is telling us that we must keep the Sabbath when it is not saying that at all. If you look at the whole passage instead of bits of it you should be able to see that it is not saying that and is teaching a different path to righteousness that keeping all the law but I am not saying that the law is abolish and I am not a man of lawlessness by saying that.

Psalm 143:2
Do not bring Your servant into judgment, for no one alive is righteous before You.

Acts 13:39
Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4:15
because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13
For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Romans 5:20
The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Job 25:4
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Psalm 130:3
If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psalm 143:2
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Job 15:15
Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Job 25:5
Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

Romans 7:7-9
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet…

Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

 

[Brian2]

We are all free to do as we wish. We can believe and follow Gods Word or not believe and follow Gods Word. All I have shared with you is Gods Word. Gods Words are not my words but Gods Word but you do not believe them. I also do not judge you. According to the scriptures and Jesus, we are all not to judge according to outward appearance but we are to judge righteous judgment according to Gods Word *John 7:24. According to the scriptures it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day (John 12:47-48).

So now after saying that Christians aren't Christians if they do not keep the Sabbath, you say you are not judging us.
And no you are not going by the complete Word of God, you miss out on and misapply the bits that disagree with the teachings of your group.

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

When the Jews hear of the New Covenant they see it as saying that the 613 commands are written in our mind and heart. You do similar but seem to limit it to the 10 Commandments even though the most important commandments are not in the 10 Commandments.
When I see the OT scriptures about the New Covenant I see the Spirit given to us and the whole of the Torah, God's Words being in us, and that including the New Testament.
The Law of Moses is the old covenant law but is not done away with but is kept in a different way as the scriptures tell us. People who don't know the OT law can fulfill it's requirements.

According to the scriptures, love is not separate from faith and obedience to Gods Word. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods law and is the fruit of genuine faith and is why Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Paul agrees with Jesus and says that love to our fellow man is simply summing up obeying those commandments in Gods 10 commandments that show us how to love our neighbor as our self. James also agrees with both Jesus and Paul in James 2:8-12 when he says we do not love our fellow man if we break anyone of those commandments that teach us how to love our neighbor. John also is in agreement with Jesus, Paul, and James when he says in 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments" in John 14:15. So none of us can claim to love God or our fellow man dear friend if we do not keep Gods commandments. John says that obeying Gods commandments us how we know that we know God and are following God in 1 John 2:3-4.

Sorry dear friend but Gods Word does not teach lawlessness.

Take Care.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Obey the royal law and we will also be keeping the requirements of the Law of Moses. And yes you are right that the law does teach us how to love our neighbour, it in fact is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our schoolmaster until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

James says if we break the royal law of love we have broken the whole law. That means if we keep the royal law of love we have kept the whole law.
You have turned it around and say that he said that if we do not keep the sabbath then we do not loved our neighbour.
John in his epistles is said to be teaching against gnostics and their idea that the flesh is nothing and it does not matter what we do in the flesh, it is our spirit that is what matters. John is not teaching about keeping a particular day of the week holy or condemning those who see themselves as keeping the commandments of God even if keeping the Sabbath as you might have people keep it is not part of that.
BTW how do you think that people should be keeping the Sabbath holy?
Is it by not working, even though the priests used to work on the sabbath without sinning?

I will say to you that thru this and other discussions about the Sabbath etc I have come to an appreciation of God's gift of the Sabbath, and learn to give myself time to rest and be with God for my own sake and the sake of those around me.
I would say that this is the way to teach the commands of God, but not as rules to be obeyed for the sake of our salvation. That makes you like the Jewish Christians of Acts 15 who were wanting to make the gentiles keep the law of Moses as a requirement, even if you seem blind to that fact.

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

 

[3rdAngel]

Where?
James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, i“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, l“Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.



It is not up to us to judge whether a person is saved or not just because that person is sinning while a believer.
All Christians do that and we don't go from being saved to not being saved to being saved to not being saved etc as we confess our sins and repent and then sin again and then confess our sins and repent etc.
Have you had a sin in your life that just remains there even after years of trying to get rid of it? I guess not.
After a while you can begin to think that you aren't a real Christians and after a while you can give up your efforts to stop that sin because it is just dragging you down.
You might say that I was an unrepentant sinner at that time and not saved but God was faithful and removed that sin from my life.

You seem to pick out little bits of passages, where it says commandments or where it mentions a couple of commandments from the 10 Commandments and then say that the passage is telling us that we must keep the Sabbath when it is not saying that at all. If you look at the whole passage instead of bits of it you should be able to see that it is not saying that and is teaching a different path to righteousness that keeping all the law but I am not saying that the law is abolish and I am not a man of lawlessness by saying that.

Psalm 143:2
Do not bring Your servant into judgment, for no one alive is righteous before You.

Acts 13:39
Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4:15
because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13
For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Romans 5:20
The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Job 25:4
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Psalm 130:3
If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psalm 143:2
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Job 15:15
Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Job 25:5
Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

Romans 7:7-9
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet…

Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Well that is not true. Jesus also said to many that did not believe his Words or pretended not to see the truth quoting Isaiah 6:9-10 "Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see you indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." Jesus says that this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil in John 3:19. Did you notice that you did not address a single scripture in the post you are responding to? Now in this post your trying to argue that sin is not the transgression of the law and that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments according to James 2:10-11 we have become a transgressor of the law that the bible defines as sin in 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7 and Romans 3:20?

As posted earlier, I believe that the scriptures teach that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we commit sin (see James 2:10-11) because that is what the scripture say word for word. Please answer the questions this time @Brian2,

• Q1. Is it a sin to practice committing adultery or lying once God gives us a knowledge of His Word?
• Q2. If someone professes to be Christians and are living in a life practicing known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God?

Here let me help you by adding some scriptures that can help answer this question for you. The bonus question is what law is being discussed in Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 in regards to being sin if broken?

• Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
• Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.
• James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.
• 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
• Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

We are all free to do as we wish. We can believe and follow Gods Word or not believe and follow Gods Word. All I have shared with you is Gods Word. Gods Words are not my words but Gods Word but you do not believe them. I also do not judge you. According to the scriptures and Jesus, we are all not to judge according to outward appearance but we are to judge righteous judgment according to Gods Word *John 7:24. According to the scriptures it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day (John 12:47-48).

You have posted a bunch of random scriptures in your post that I am responding to here. Can you tell me please which one of those scriptures teach us or tell us that...

• It is now alright for Christians in the new covenant to break anyone of Gods 10 commandments and not believe and obey Gods Word?
• We can now continue in known unrepentant sin breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments and still receive everlasting life?
• We do not have to believe and obey Gods Word?
• Faith abolishes the need to obey what Gods Word says?
• If we knowingly break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we can claim to know God?
• We are God children while continuing in known unrepentant sin?
• We walk in Gods Spirit by fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?
• That Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus?
• Where Jesus or any of the Apostles taught that Christians can now continue in known unrepentant sin until the second coming?
• Where Jesus taught any one of Gods 10 commandments are abolished?
• Where any of the Apostles taught that anyone of Gods 10 commandments are abolished?
• Where Gods 10 commandment no longer give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break them?
• Where we can say we believe Gods Word but no longer have to obey Gods Word
• Where obedience to Gods Word is not the fruit of faith?

Sorry dear friend but Gods Word does not teach lawlessness.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

So now after saying that Christians aren't Christians if they do not keep the Sabbath, you say you are not judging us.
And no you are not going by the complete Word of God, you miss out on and misapply the bits that disagree with the teachings of your group.

No, not at all dear friend. I believe that I am showing you that Gods Word (not my words) teach that sin is breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments as shown in Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 and Romans 3:20 and that Gods Word (not my words) say that if we knowingly break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we stand before God guilty of breaking all the law in James 2:10-11 and that transgression of the law is sin in Gods eye (1 John 3:4) and those those who knowingly practice sin do not know God according to 1 John 2:3-4 and are not the children of God as stated in 1 John 3:6-10 and we cannot claim to have genuine saving faith if we claims to believe Gods Word but do not obey what Gods Word says (see Matthew 7:13-23) and that Gods Word (not my words) say that all those who continue to practice known unrepentant sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods Word but refuse to believe and follow what Gods Word says, will not be saved come judgement day according to the scriptures in Hebrews 10:26-31; 1 John 2:3-4 and Matthew 7:13-23).

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

@Brian2 lets be honest here dear friend Hebrews 10:14-17 only supports what I am sharing with you. It does not support a teaching of lawlessness. Gods new covenant to Israel, defined in the new covenant as all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods Word says from a new heart that loves obey Gods Word from the heart. That is where Gods laws are written. They love God and keep His commandments (John 14:15) and God loves them (John 15:10). They have been forgiven for their sins and are now free to walk in Gods Spirit to love and keep His commandments. Tell me @Brian2 how can anyone claims to love God or their fellow man by breaking the commandments of God when obedience to Gods word through faith that works by love is how love is expressed in the life of those who have genuine faith as shown in Romans 3:31 and James 2:13-26?

When the Jews hear of the New Covenant they see it as saying that the 613 commands are written in our mind and heart. You do similar but seem to limit it to the 10 Commandments even though the most important commandments are not in the 10 Commandments. When I see the OT scriptures about the New Covenant I see the Spirit given to us and the whole of the Torah, God's Words being in us, and that including the New Testament. The Law of Moses is the old covenant law but is not done away with but is kept in a different way as the scriptures tell us. People who don't know the OT law can fulfill it's requirements.

According to the new covenant scriptures, "a Jew is not one outwardly; neither is circumcision, of the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." - Romans 2:28-29. Circumcision was a shadow law of Gods new covenant promise to write His laws in our heart so that we can obey His Words. It is written in Jeremiah 31:31-34 "This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, says the lord, I will put my law in their inward parts,and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Ezekiel echos the words of Jeremiah in Ezekiel 36:24-27 when he says "A new heart will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and you shall keep my judgements and do them. So to claim that the new covenant does not obey Gods laws is simply not to know what the new covenant is. The new covenant is obedience to Gods law in those who have been born again in the Spirit and been given a new heart that loves through faith in Gods Word. If we are still practicing known unrepentant sin it is only a sign we do not know God and need to seek him through faith in his Word (see 1 John 2:3-4).

more to come...

 

[3rdAngel]

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. Obey the royal law and we will also be keeping the requirements of the Law of Moses. And yes you are right that the law does teach us how to love our neighbour, it in fact is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. 23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our schoolmaster until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. James says if we break the royal law of love we have broken the whole law. That means if we keep the royal law of love we have kept the whole law. You have turned it around and say that he said that if we do not keep the sabbath then we do not loved our neighbour. John in his epistles is said to be teaching against gnostics and their idea that the flesh is nothing and it does not matter what we do in the flesh, it is our spirit that is what matters. John is not teaching about keeping a particular day of the week holy or condemning those who see themselves as keeping the commandments of God even if keeping the Sabbath as you might have people keep it is not part of that. BTW how do you think that people should be keeping the Sabbath holy? Is it by not working, even though the priests used to work on the sabbath without sinning?

There is nothing wrong with the scriptures you have provided here @Brian2. It is your interpretation of them that is the problem. You are trying to argue here that if we love we do not have to keep and obey Gods 10 commandments. The scriptures are not saying this at all. Can you show me in anything and in any scripture you have posted in this section of your post we can continue breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments as long as we say we love someone? Think your argument through Brian and I believe if you can honestly answer these questions you will be able to see why your interpretation of these scriptures is a teaching of lawlessness and is not biblical.

Tell me dear friend...

• If you love your neighbor will you steal from them?
• If you love your neighbor will you lie to them?
• If you love your neighbor will you kill them?
• If you love your neighbor will you commit adultery with their spouse?
• If you love God will you take Gods name in vain?
• If you love God will you make idols and bow down and worship them?
• If you love God will you break His Sabbath that he made as a holy day of rest to be with you?

I think you get the picture we can go through all the 10 commandments here asking the same questions. So think it through Brian. If you answer no then you are agreeing with me, Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:80-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-3 that on these two commandments of love to God and man (Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18) hand all the law and the prophets. Love therefore is expressed in obedience to Gods law not breaking Gods law. If you answer yes we can now break anyone of Gods 10 commandments what kind of love are you promoting? It is not the law of love but the law of sin and death according to the scriptures of someone that needs to be born again.

I will say to you that thru this and other discussions about the Sabbath etc I have come to an appreciation of God's gift of the Sabbath, and learn to give myself time to rest and be with God for my own sake and the sake of those around me. I would say that this is the way to teach the commands of God, but not as rules to be obeyed for the sake of our salvation. That makes you like the Jewish Christians of Acts 15 who were wanting to make the gentiles keep the law of Moses as a requirement, even if you seem blind to that fact. Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

Lets be honest in our discussions dear friend. We all choose who we will believe and follow. We all have the choice to believe and follow Gods Word or not believe and obey what Gods Word says and continue in known unrepentant sin after God gives us the knowledge of the truth of His Words. This is the warning given in Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. Gods people in the wilderness did not enter into God's rest because they chose not to believe and obey what Gods Word says. This is a warning given to everyone of us today. We are all commanded in the scriptures to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith or not in 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we know if we know God then or do not know God? "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:3-4. So the question we need to be asking ourselves is what is our fruit? The fruit of faith in obedience to Gods law according to Paul in Romans 3:31 and James says that if we say we believe Gods Word but do not obey what Gods Word says we do not have genuine saving faith but the dead faith of devils in James 2:13-26 while John tells us not to deceive ourselves, in 1 John 3:6-10 and that those who are born again do not practice sin which is defined as breaking Gods law in 1 John 3:4. This is why Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:16-23 you shall know them by their fruits, that is who is from God and who is not from God and that it is only those who do the will of the father that will enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Your words in this section of your post mean nothing to me Brian because you seek to twist the scriptures to promote a teaching of lawlessness and Gods Word (not my words) tell me in 1 John 2:3-4 He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Something to pray about dear friend.

Take Care.

 

[Windwalker]

All I have shared with you is Gods Word. Gods Words are not my words but Gods Word but you do not believe them.

Wrong. Anything anyone reads from scripture is their interpretation of the words. What you have shared is your interpretation of the the Bible. They are your words, when they come out of your mouth filtered by your interpretive lens. You don't get to escape responsibility for them by saying, "They're God's words, not mine!". That is a copout. They are your view of God's words. Let's be 100% clear about that.

There is nothing wrong with the scriptures you have provided here @Brian2. It is your interpretation of them that is the problem.

And yet you do not think there is any problem with your interpretation? You claim it's not your words but God's, as if you are not yourself interpreting them. You cannot claim "It's not my words, but God's," pretending your understanding is not an interpretation of them by you.

What people are not believing, is you and your understanding. That is all. They are not rejecting God. They are rejecting your views of God. Don't pretend that by others rejecting your opinions about God, that that equals them rejecting God. You don't get to hide your biases behind God like that.

Have you ever read Romans 14? It pertains directly to your insistence others understand God and practice religion the way you do, or they are sinning against God. Care to discuss that chapter with me?

 

[nPeace]

That explains John 14:21 enough imo.

Thank you.
I just want to say that you did not explain the verse, but just quoted a verse to say that Jesus loves people even though they do not keep his commandments, but it does not help a person who wants to know what Jesus meant by his words in John 14:21. Thanks though.

 

[Windwalker]

Thanks. Could you explain it to me please... especially the phrase 'The one who loves me will be loved by my Father'?

Read the rest of the verse. "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him". Clearly, Jesus already loved them, and God already loved them. So what Jesus means here is captured in this statement, "I will show myself to him". What that means is if you love God and keep his commandments, you open the gates to that ever-present love and you will know it for yourself, experience it, and it will reveal Truth to you - because you are open to it.

This has nothing to do with earning love, or that God doesn't love you until you make him love you. That's not love. That bartering with God for love. That's not what that verse means at all. A love that is negotiated, isn't love at all.

 

[nPeace]

Read the rest of the verse. "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him". Clearly, Jesus already loved them, and God already loved them. So what Jesus means here is captured in this statement, "I will show myself to him". What that means is if you love God and keep his commandments, you open the gates to that ever-present love and you will know it for yourself, experience it, and it will reveal Truth to you - because you are open to it.

This has nothing to do with earning love, or that God doesn't love you until you make him love you. That's not love. That bartering with God for love. That's not what that verse means at all. A love that is negotiated, isn't love at all.

I don't get that. Will does not mean already does, but thanks.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't get that. Will does not mean already does, but thanks.

Yes, you don't get it. I'm trying to help you with that. Yes, 'will' love them, means, if you open that door, you will receive his love. It's saying, if you come home to me, I will love you. It doesn't mean he doesn't until you come home. It's saying that for your sake.

Think the story of the prodigal son. The father reacted to his return with open arms, because the father already loved him. His "will love him", is saying, if you come home, that's what you will find. I will love you, as I always have. Get it yet?

 

[nPeace]

Yes, you don't get it. I'm trying to help you with that. Yes, 'will' love them, means, if you open that door, you will receive his love. It's saying, if you come home to me, I will love you. It doesn't mean he doesn't until you come home. It's saying that for your sake.

Think the story of the prodigal son. The father reacted to his return with open arms, because the father already loved him. His "will love him", is saying, if you come home, that's what you will find. I will love you, as I always have. Get it yet?

...but you are saying "if you come home to me, I will love you."
Based on what you are trying to say, would it not be less misleading, and less confusing to say, "if you come home to me, you will experience my love." In other words... "you will bathe in my love, or be engulfed in my love"?

That would more explain what you are saying, since the love is there, available for all to come and benefit. Like when God says, come take life's water free. It's available to all, but you have to come take it.
I understand that.

However, that is not what those verses are saying. They state that God's and Jesus' actions are a response to person's actions.
I understand that this is not toward the ignorant, but rather the willful "haters of God".
I get that. It's what you are saying that I don't get... Not that I don't understand your view. I just don't agree with it.

The Bible says God's very being hates a lover of violence.

Tell me something though.
You love your children unconditionally.
If you were an executioner, and your son was found guilty of murder, and sentenced to death by firing squad. Would you point the gun at your son standing in the execution square, and pull the trigger?