Where is the morality?

[lewisnotmiller]

The argument was that we were immoral because we are now going back to the moon, as if the Chinese suddenly had the only right to it.

The moon is open territory. Whoever gets there, gets there.

But, honestly, to me it's like arguing over a really expensive dead chicken.

I don't think anyone argued about you going to the moon.
I certainly didn't.
And the Chinese didn't even momentarily crossmy mind.

Access and ownership of resources is a completely different story to 'going there'.
And in terms of being an expensive dead chicken, hypotheticals are commonly used to explore ethics, and this certainly goes beyond that.

 

[Super Universe]

I don't think anyone argued about you going to the moon.
I certainly didn't.
And the Chinese didn't even momentarily crossmy mind.

Access and ownership of resources is a completely different story to 'going there'.
And in terms of being an expensive dead chicken, hypotheticals are commonly used to explore ethics, and this certainly goes beyond that.

The thread is asks, "Where's the Morality?" And goes on to say that Trump is developing off earth resources (mining planets, moons, and other space objects) which may start a new Space Wars race.

What did you think the OP was about?

The Chinese didn't cross your mind? Then who are we possibly going to Space Wars with as the OP suggests? Aliens?

Okay, the moon is not an expensive dead chicken. It's an expensive dead rock with absolutely no remaining scientific or production value. We don't need the moon to make rockets to get to Mars or farther. The whole idea of that comes from the ridiculous 90 Day Report that NASA submitted to President Bush (the first Bush) when he asked them to come up with a plan for sending humans to Mars.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You wouldn't be too hard on China for stealing secrets? Why can't they put in the time and effort to learn things themselves?

Perhaps because they are cleverer than that? And you seem to dismiss offhand all the colonialism and resource stealing that has gone on for centuries - as a Brit I am well away of our role in such and hardly proud of it.

The Chinese closed their society for thousands of years and the Japanese came in and swept through their country. We gave the Chinese weapons to fight the Japanese and then we defeated the Japanese and now the Chinese are stealing our submarine designs and copying the US stealth fighter and US destroyer designs.

We went to the moon first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth, before the Chinese and now, somehow, WE are the ones looking for trouble on the moon?

Different societies have different problems, and I'm no expert on China, but it is a vast country to manage. I can't comment too much on past history or the politics of that region, but I'm more interested in the future. Such that it is not just the Moon we have to worry about, although that no doubt will be a problem if we don't get better cooperation than seemingly is going to be the case - the USA going it alone rather than aiming for international cooperation - and also there will be the inevitable contamination problems if we don't go for international agreements. It seems that this might set a precedent for future conflicts though. Do we really want to see space vessels armed as much as their Earth equivalents?

 

[Mock Turtle]

The argument was that we were immoral because we are now going back to the moon, as if the Chinese suddenly had the only right to it.

The moon is open territory. Whoever gets there, gets there.

But, honestly, to me it's like arguing over a really expensive dead chicken.

You got that wrong. It is about claiming that we don't need international cooperation - just seeing all off-Earth objects as material to be exploited by whichever nation happens to have the wealth and/or technology to achieve such. This is hardly progress, but no doubt quite common for those who do have more nationalism in their thinking than might be good for them - or others.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The thread is asks, "Where's the Morality?" And goes on to say that Trump is developing off earth resources (mining planets, moons, and other space objects) which may start a new Space Wars race.

What did you think the OP was about?

The Chinese didn't cross your mind? Then who are we possibly going to Space Wars with as the OP suggests? Aliens?

Okay, the moon is not an expensive dead chicken. It's an expensive dead rock with absolutely no remaining scientific or production value. We don't need the moon to make rockets to get to Mars or farther. The whole idea of that comes from the ridiculous 90 Day Report that NASA submitted to President Bush (the first Bush) when he asked them to come up with a plan for sending humans to Mars.

The OP was mainly about the MAD doctrine - that was why it was cited first - the space thing is probably in the same area of concern though. Hence the title of the thread.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Although only one participant in the MAD doctrine (the Soviet Union might have had the same, I can't remember), how could the government of the USA be claiming to be 'leaders of the free world' (then and now) when it was basically setting an immoral example by risking so much destruction if any such policy was ever carried out? And how would any nation involved in such a confrontation be viewed by subsequent generations - if there were any?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The thread is asks, "Where's the Morality?" And goes on to say that Trump is developing off earth resources (mining planets, moons, and other space objects) which may start a new Space Wars race.

What did you think the OP was about?

Morality and leadership amongst nations, with access and exploitation of space minerals, etc as an example.

Your turn. What do you think my post suggested that conflicted with the OP?

The Chinese didn't cross your mind? Then who are we possibly going to Space Wars with as the OP suggests? Aliens?

It makes me chuckle a little when people take examples used in supporting a question, take the whole thing as overly literal, then mock others who don't.

Again, the question posed in the OP is broader, and specific and current examples are drawn from recent events. That doesn't mean I need to limit myself to current strategic situations in responding.

If I asked someone about this 70 years ago, it would have been taken as 'obvious' that I was referring to the USSR. In another 70 it might be some sort of pan-continental business conglomerate. It actually doesn't matter in terms of the OP, since the question of leadership, morality and power remains.

Okay, the moon is not an expensive dead chicken. It's an expensive dead rock with absolutely no remaining scientific or production value. We don't need the moon to make rockets to get to Mars or farther. The whole idea of that comes from the ridiculous 90 Day Report that NASA submitted to President Bush (the first Bush) when he asked them to come up with a plan for sending humans to Mars.

That's your assessment of value. That doesn't change whether a declaration of ownership would be ethical, for example. Nor does it explain why recent comments about the moon were made. Nor has any comment that I'm aware of been made with respect to existing agreements in place regarding sovereignty of the moon, which the US is a signatory of...

Outer Space Treaty - Wikipedia

 

[Super Universe]

Perhaps because they are cleverer than that? And you seem to dismiss offhand all the colonialism and resource stealing that has gone on for centuries - as a Brit I am well away of our role in such and hardly proud of it.

Different societies have different problems, and I'm no expert on China, but it is a vast country to manage. I can't comment too much on past history or the politics of that region, but I'm more interested in the future. Such that it is not just the Moon we have to worry about, although that no doubt will be a problem if we don't get better cooperation than seemingly is going to be the case - the USA going it alone rather than aiming for international cooperation - and also there will be the inevitable contamination problems if we don't go for international agreements. It seems that this might set a precedent for future conflicts though. Do we really want to see space vessels armed as much as their Earth equivalents?

So to you stealing is clever?

I seem to dismiss all of the colonialism and resource stealing? I thought you guys paid for the tea but maybe not.

So you're upset that the US might colonize the moon? That's like colonizing antarctica. It would be an immense burden with no benefit whatsoever.

So you're upset that the US is going back to the moon alone but it's okay for the Chinese to go to the moon alone?

Do we really need to see space vessels armed as much as earth equivalents? There is no need since there are already weapon systems in space and there has been for a long time.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So to you stealing is clever?

Haha - I'm sure it depends who is doing the stealing - like land for example, from an indigenous population? No, stealing isn't particularly clever, but it is common, and often justified later.

I seem to dismiss all of the colonialism and resource stealing? I thought you guys paid for the tea but maybe not.

Many nations seem to do a lot of stealing - I think it's usually called colonialism. So which is worse - land and population or some technology?

So you're upset that the US might colonize the moon? That's like colonizing antarctica. It would be an immense burden with no benefit whatsoever.

Nope - thinking a bit further ahead.

So you're upset that the US is going back to the moon alone but it's okay for the Chinese to go to the moon alone?

Looking a bit more into the future, unless the next president rescinds what Trump has apparently done.

Do we really need to see space vessels armed as much as earth equivalents? There is no need since there are already weapon systems in space and there has been for a long time.

Still not looking far enough into the future are you?

 

[Super Universe]

Haha - I'm sure it depends who is doing the stealing - like land for example, from an indigenous population? No, stealing isn't particularly clever, but it is common, and often justified later.

Many nations seem to do a lot of stealing - I think it's usually called colonialism. So which is worse - land and population or some technology?

Nope - thinking a bit further ahead.
Looking a bit more into the future, unless the next president rescinds what Trump has apparently done.
Still not looking far enough into the future are you?

You're really into indigenous rights. I feel for them but all people fought with other civilizations, some won and some lost. It's not like they were truly peaceful people, they just didn't win. And there are indigenous people still living in huts and walking around wearing penis gourds.

Which is worse to steal, land or technology? Normally land but it depends on the technology. If a primitive people stole a nuclear weapon and used it to destroy a major city, then I would say technology.

I don't know what your futuristic worry is since you won't answer the question but Trump will only be President for, at most, another 4.5 years. None of his decisions will really affect the future. We already had a space force, it was just a part of the US Air Force before and now it's independant.

I'm not looking far enough into the future? That's just about all I do. I'm not worried one bit about it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You're really into indigenous rights. I feel for them but all people fought with other civilizations, some won and some lost. It's not like they were truly peaceful people, they just didn't win. And there are indigenous people still living in huts and walking around wearing penis gourds.

Which is worse to steal, land or technology? Normally land but it depends on the technology. If a primitive people stole a nuclear weapon and used it to destroy a major city, then I would say technology.

I don't know what your futuristic worry is since you won't answer the question but Trump will only be President for, at most, another 4.5 years. None of his decisions will really affect the future. We already had a space force, it was just a part of the US Air Force before and now it's independant.

I'm not looking far enough into the future? That's just about all I do. I'm not worried one bit about it.

Well the stealing thing I think should be looked at with some perspective. China is/was hardly the only country to do so (many in SE Asia and elsewhere) and had been doing it for decades. The fact that they have become so successful seems to have changed matters quite a bit. If we stepped outside of our own preferred position perhaps, how would one see countries such as China then (and so many others) in comparison with the more wealthy and powerful ones? Did they have the power to dictate to others and/or exploit them, or did they rather just have to do whatever they could in response to such? That is how I tend to see such, and after all, much of the globalisation came from the wealthy countries wanting bigger profits - hence the manufacturing where labour was cheapest - rather than there being any beneficent motive behind such.

The space thing I just don't know. It might be that international cooperation would be necessary anyway since some of the possible projects might just be too large for any one country such that it would make sense to join forces - as long as the tensions now existing became less. Trump is hardly doing a great deal in this direction though.

 

[Super Universe]

Well the stealing thing I think should be looked at with some perspective. China is/was hardly the only country to do so (many in SE Asia and elsewhere) and had been doing it for decades. The fact that they have become so successful seems to have changed matters quite a bit. If we stepped outside of our own preferred position perhaps, how would one see countries such as China then (and so many others) in comparison with the more wealthy and powerful ones? Did they have the power to dictate to others and/or exploit them, or did they rather just have to do whatever they could in response to such? That is how I tend to see such, and after all, much of the globalisation came from the wealthy countries wanting bigger profits - hence the manufacturing where labour was cheapest - rather than there being any beneficent motive behind such.

The space thing I just don't know. It might be that international cooperation would be necessary anyway since some of the possible projects might just be too large for any one country such that it would make sense to join forces - as long as the tensions now existing became less. Trump is hardly doing a great deal in this direction though.

You say we are in the preferred position but China sat back, didn't invent, didn't discover, and now they have easy access to a thousand years of information from western sources and we allow the Chinese to come to the US to attend our universities.

Did China have the power to dictate to others and exploit them? If you are talking about hundreds of years ago, then no, they did not have the power to win against the British but they could have fought a longer war. Everyone fought with other civilizations, some won, some lost. The Chinese tried to isolate themselves but the British wouldn't let them then they were invaded by Japan and eventually realized that they could no longer avoid the rest of the world.

China intervened in the Korean War and fought against UN troops. If they had not done so Korea would be one complete free nation today. Then China invaded Tibet in 1950 and in 2014 they built islands in the South China Sea that are closer to Vietnam than China. China is not as innocent as you think they are.

International cooperation in space won't be needed to build a base on the moon. The US and China can each do it independantly if they wish. Russia can't afford it.

Obama said the right thing then made horrible deals for the US because he wanted other countries to like him. Trump says the wrong thing in public then he makes very good deals for the US people. I'm not a fan of Trump because he's so full of himself but economically he's better for the US than the democrats.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You say we are in the preferred position but China sat back, didn't invent, didn't discover, and now they have easy access to a thousand years of information from western sources and we allow the Chinese to come to the US to attend our universities.

Well I suspect that is a dismissal of a rather older culture than much of Europe, and which did give us much, even if they didn't make much use of it themselves (like gunpowder).

Did China have the power to dictate to others and exploit them? If you are talking about hundreds of years ago, then no, they did not have the power to win against the British but they could have fought a longer war. Everyone fought with other civilizations, some won, some lost. The Chinese tried to isolate themselves but the British wouldn't let them then they were invaded by Japan and eventually realized that they could no longer avoid the rest of the world.

They didn't seem to be a colonising power, being more attacked than attacking.

China intervened in the Korean War and fought against UN troops. If they had not done so Korea would be one complete free nation today. Then China invaded Tibet in 1950 and in 2014 they built islands in the South China Sea that are closer to Vietnam than China. China is not as innocent as you think they are.

Haha - I never said they were innocent. All I was pointing out was they are not so villainous in comparison to so many colonising nations - like Great Britain, France, Spain, The Netherlands, etc. The current situation in that area I can't really comment on. I know what is happening but not really sure why apart from China perhaps wanting to protect its trade routes. China doesn't seem to have ambitions to colonise anywhere in particular, apart from trade wise.

International cooperation in space won't be needed to build a base on the moon. The US and China can each do it independantly if they wish. Russia can't afford it.

It's further away I'm more thinking about - the moons of some of the major planets, for example.

Obama said the right thing then made horrible deals for the US because he wanted other countries to like him. Trump says the wrong thing in public then he makes very good deals for the US people. I'm not a fan of Trump because he's so full of himself but economically he's better for the US than the democrats.

But he's not good for the world - like abandoning climate change deals or initiatives and bolstering fossil fuel use because it suits the USA.

 

[Super Universe]

Well I suspect that is a dismissal of a rather older culture than much of Europe, and which did give us much, even if they didn't make much use of it themselves (like gunpowder).

They didn't seem to be a colonising power, being more attacked than attacking.
Haha - I never said they were innocent. All I was pointing out was they are not so villainous in comparison to so many colonising nations - like Great Britain, France, Spain, The Netherlands, etc. The current situation in that area I can't really comment on. I know what is happening but not really sure why apart from China perhaps wanting to protect its trade routes. China doesn't seem to have ambitions to colonise anywhere in particular, apart from trade wise.

It's further away I'm more thinking about - the moons of some of the major planets, for example.
But he's not good for the world - like abandoning climate change deals or initiatives and bolstering fossil fuel use because it suits the USA.

The Chinese didn't give us gunpowder. They invented it first but they kept it a secret and the western world invented it on their own later on.

China was not a colonizing power? They were not in the past, except for Tibet. How come the people of Hong Kong are not happy with joining China and they are protesting?

You're not worried about the US putting a base on the moon but you are worried about the US putting a base on another moon? We won't live to see it happen. We might make it to Mars in another 15 years or so but there won't be a base on another planets moon in our life time. Still, that base would be a burden, not a benefit.

Abandoning climate change deals and bolstering fossil fuel use? The climate change deal had rich countries giving money to an organization. Why do we have to give money to others when we can just use that money to buy solar panels in our own country?

 

[Mock Turtle]

The Chinese didn't give us gunpowder. They invented it first but they kept it a secret and the western world invented it on their own later on.

China was not a colonizing power? They were not in the past, except for Tibet. How come the people of Hong Kong are not happy with joining China and they are protesting?

They are not in the sense that so many others were. The Tibet thing can't really be defended, but neither can what many of the colonising powers did either. And the gunpowder? Perhaps they did us a favour, after all, what was the first thing we did with the knowledge - find more efficient ways to kill each other.

You're not worried about the US putting a base on the moon but you are worried about the US putting a base on another moon? We won't live to see it happen. We might make it to Mars in another 15 years or so but there won't be a base on another planets moon in our life time. Still, that base would be a burden, not a benefit.

Abandoning climate change deals and bolstering fossil fuel use? The climate change deal had rich countries giving money to an organization. Why do we have to give money to others when we can just use that money to buy solar panels in our own country?

I'm not worried about nations doing such but more about the lack of cooperation likely leading to conflict if and when space exploration becomes very common. Why take our bickering into space? Sorry, no excuse for the apparent leader of the free world acting selfishly. That's not an example to set for others - unless they aren't actually leaders at all and just like all the rest, but where they are acting rather better?

 

[Super Universe]

They are not in the sense that so many others were. The Tibet thing can't really be defended, but neither can what many of the colonising powers did either. And the gunpowder? Perhaps they did us a favour, after all, what was the first thing we did with the knowledge - find more efficient ways to kill each other.

I'm not worried about nations doing such but more about the lack of cooperation likely leading to conflict if and when space exploration becomes very common. Why take our bickering into space? Sorry, no excuse for the apparent leader of the free world acting selfishly. That's not an example to set for others - unless they aren't actually leaders at all and just like all the rest, but where they are acting rather better?

China didn't colonize others because it couldn't colonize others. It wasn't that they were so very nice people, they just didn't have the ability.

Gunpowder and nuclear weapons are inevitable discoveries. It's just a matter of time before someone figures them out.

Trump didn't take the US into space. We've been there for a very long time and the Russians actually beat us into space, we just beat them to the moon and we have better robots on Mars and we put up the Hubble.

There is no bickering in space.

 

[Mock Turtle]

China didn't colonize others because it couldn't colonize others. It wasn't that they were so very nice people, they just didn't have the ability.

How do you figure that out? I believe they had sailing ships long ago but apparently didn't choose to explore so much as many nations did.

Gunpowder and nuclear weapons are inevitable discoveries. It's just a matter of time before someone figures them out.

Well you were claiming they held back the knowledge.

Trump didn't take the US into space. We've been there for a very long time and the Russians actually beat us into space, we just beat them to the moon and we have better robots on Mars and we put up the Hubble.

There is no bickering in space.

You still don't get it do you. It's not about the Moon. it's all about much further away if this is set as a precedent - that is, that nations go their own way in such explorations. Talking centuries rather than decades.

 

[Super Universe]

How do you figure that out? I believe they had sailing ships long ago but apparently didn't choose to explore so much as many nations did.

Well you were claiming they held back the knowledge.

You still don't get it do you. It's not about the Moon. it's all about much further away if this is set as a precedent - that is, that nations go their own way in such explorations. Talking centuries rather than decades.

The Chinese had sailing ships but no experience travelling the world. Like most nations, to this day they still have not sailed around the world. They waited until others discovered it all for them and they looked at their maps.

China did hold back the knowledge about gunpowder. I'm not saying what they did was wrong. I would have done the same thing. What I'm saying is that they never contributed to the knowledge and discoveries and inventions that the westerners gave to the rest of the world. They just took from others hard work.

I still don't get it? No you still don't get it. China is not this nice perfect innocent society. They caused North Korea to exist. They invaded Tibet. Mao told his people to have more children because he knew the US had nuclear weapons, so he thought they needed more people to survive a war with the US even after the US provided China with tanks and weapons to fight the Japanese. So what happened was the chinese had more children but they're food supply didn't expand enough and they had a famine and about 20 million of their own people died. The Chinese today are returning starving North Koreans to North Korea to be sent to labor camps. The Chinese today are raping North Korean women who come into their country just to get something to eat. The Chinese are not better because they didn't colonize others. They just did the bad things to their own people and North Koreans instead of the rest of the world.

It's not about the moon? Other than a small useless moon base and a visit to Mars and possibly a very small Mars colony there is no way any civilization on earth is going to be able to populate any other planet or other celestial body in our life time. You keep talking about other planets, a very small Mars colony is not going to happen for at least another 30 years and even if it does happen by then it will be a burden, not a benefit.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The Chinese had sailing ships but no experience travelling the world. Like most nations, to this day they still have not sailed around the world. They waited until others discovered it all for them and they looked at their maps.

China did hold back the knowledge about gunpowder. I'm not saying what they did was wrong. I would have done the same thing. What I'm saying is that they never contributed to the knowledge and discoveries and inventions that the westerners gave to the rest of the world. They just took from others hard work.

I'm not sure many other nations were so free with what they learnt though. Perhaps using such to exploit others, convert them to their own religion, or learn what they had to offer, but the colonising nations were hardly full of benevolence.

It's not about the moon? Other than a small useless moon base and a visit to Mars and possibly a very small Mars colony there is no way any civilization on earth is going to be able to populate any other planet or other celestial body in our life time. You keep talking about other planets, a very small Mars colony is not going to happen for at least another 30 years and even if it does happen by then it will be a burden, not a benefit.

And you seem to be just talking about what you can see. I'm talking about much further into the future. What we can or cannot do is really dependent upon what we achieve in the way of scientific discoveries. I know it isn't looking that promising at the moment. The Moon, Mars, etc,, are just the tip of the iceberg as to the possibilities that face us - in the future. And who said anything populating? I'm on about resources - watch Red Dwarf at all? That is more likely to happen given the inhospitable nature of most off-Earth objects.

 

[Super Universe]

I'm not sure many other nations were so free with what they learnt though. Perhaps using such to exploit others, convert them to their own religion, or learn what they had to offer, but the colonising nations were hardly full of benevolence.

And you seem to be just talking about what you can see. I'm talking about much further into the future. What we can or cannot do is really dependent upon what we achieve in the way of scientific discoveries. I know it isn't looking that promising at the moment. The Moon, Mars, etc,, are just the tip of the iceberg as to the possibilities that face us - in the future. And who said anything populating? I'm on about resources - watch Red Dwarf at all? That is more likely to happen given the inhospitable nature of most off-Earth objects.

You don't think that freedom, democracy, a just legal system, and countless discoveries, inventions, and literature make up for the age of colonization? The Chinese seem to like the western aircraft, tractors, trucks, farm equipment, internet, electricity, computers, fast food, movies, music, and they are protesting in Hong Kong for democracy.

It seems you are the only one who hates western ideas.

So you don't want any space mining. There's no way it's economical unless we figure out the fusion reactor thing and by then we will have all the electricty we need from more hydro and solar power sources.