where is God?

[Corban]

"That seems like a very juvenile explanation to me. It implies that there is something God CANNOT do. It implies that God is bound by laws. Do you not think that an All-Powerful God would be able to do ANYTHING it wants, that it would NOT be bound by anything?"-Runt-

There are things God can't do, God can't lie, God can't sin.



"Therefore, perhaps INFINITY is merely a product of our finite minds. Perhaps these things really did not go on forever. Perhaps there was actually a beginning of Time, of Space, of everything we conceive of as infinite, and before that was literally NOTHING."-Runt-

that goes against all logic, no on not even scientist believe there was every anything, but matter can't be created, and if there was ever a nothing then there was a time when there was no matter, then there would have to be a time that it was created which is impossible, because nothing can not create something, something would have had to have been there to do it and if something was there that it was not nothing

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Actually Corban, modern physicists say that 'virtual particles' flicker in and out of existence throughout the universe. At the Quantum level, particles are indeed acausal, and something literally does come out of nothing.

This is the modern scientific view, as I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Corban]

Actually Corban, modern physicists say that 'virtual particles' flicker in and out of existence throughout the universe. At the Quantum level, particles are indeed acausal, and something literally does come out of nothing.

This is the modern scientific view, as I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It is a fascinating view of modern quantem pyhsics, but even this does not end our debate of wether there was ever nothing. The argument was that there was nothing, and God created something out of nothing, Virtual particles do not come from nothing, they are a temporary elementary particle, used to describe an intermediate stage in the interaction between elementary particles. A virtual particle is never the end result of such a process, and the particle only comes into play as part of the interaction, hence it could not come from nothing.

 

[Master Vigil]

In alot of debates we go from discussing god to discussing energy. Perhaps god is just energy and we fail to notice it. We try to debate for and against gods existence by using energy, we discuss finity and infinity by using energy. Perhaps god is just that... energy.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

God is the only infinite thing in this universe. I find it mind-boggling that God could be considered all-powerful by limiting His powers here on Earth via physical laws.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Or perhaps any concept of God is an attempt to explain that which we don't understand (just as Zeus explained lightning), and since most people have enough knowledge of science to understand matter in this modern age, they resort to (unscientific/uninformed) notions of "energy".

At any rate--Corban, let's examine a traditional view of the Big Bang theory. Now, let's put aside string theory for a moment and assume the Big Bang 'came from nothing'.

Saying that there 'was nothing before the Big Bang' is not the same as saying that matter was 'created from nothing', because before the Big Bang time itself did not exist. In other words, there is no such thing as 'before' the Big Bang. Remember, time is a relative concept that depends on the relative motions of matter in order to have any meaning. Time itself begins with the Big Bang.

Therefore, the time that elapsed before the Big Bang (when there existed only 'nothingness') is equal to zero, since time does not come into existence until after the Big Bang. This both explains how the universe may have come into being without the need for a Creator, and it does not contradict the laws of thermodynamics (namely, that matter/energy cannot be created from nothing). This is because given our modern understanding of time, we know that there is no such thing as 'before the Big Bang'.

 

[Master Vigil]

But how do we know that god is infinite, and how do we know that energy is not? I believe the only things infinite are change, and the Tao. But the Tao may very well be just energy such as your god. Your gods power is limited when you give it gender, when you give it human emotions and characteristics, when you call it solely good, when you call it omnipotent and omniscient. Even having an idea of it limits it, for if it was completely omnipotent and infinite, we should very well have more than just an idea of it. Therefore, the infiniteness of an essence could very well be stored in energy and change. Not love, not good, not light, not omniscence, not omnipotence. An infinite essence must contain everything. Or else it would be limited and therefore not infinite.

 

[Corban]

"Now, let's put aside string theory for a moment and assume the Big Bang 'came from nothing'.
Saying that there 'was nothing before the Big Bang' is not the same as saying that matter was 'created from nothing', because before the Big Bang time itself did not exist. In other words, there is no such thing as 'before' the Big Bang. Remember, time is a relative concept that depends on the relative motions of matter in order to have any meaning. Time itself begins with the Big Bang." -Mr. Sprinkles

"you can't assume that before the big bang there was nothing. that goes against the most basic laws, matter can not be created, if you say time did not exist before the big bang, your still saying nothing existed before the big band, and still saying it came from nothing, if you say there was a beginning then there was a time before the beginning when it was not there, and the basic laws of science says that matter always existed

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Corban-- clearly, you did not read my last post carefully. There was NEVER a time when matter did not exist, according to the Big Bang theory. This is going to take some abstract thinking on your part in order to understand.

1) time is relative, and only exists as long as there is relative motion of matter.
2) theoretically, if there is such a thing as 'before' the Big Bang, there would be no matter
3) in our theoretical 'before the Big Bang' universe, time does not exist, because there would be no matter or motion to give it existence
4) therefore, the time that elapses before the Big Bang occurs is *ZERO*

I am not assuming that before the Big Bang there was nothing...I'm saying there is no such thing as "before the Big Bang". I know this is a difficult concept to grasp....just keep rereading #4 and maybe you will understand.

4) the time that elapses before the Big Bang is ZERO

 

[Corban]

"I am not assuming that before the Big Bang there was nothing...I'm saying there is no such thing as "before the Big Bang". I know this is a difficult concept to grasp....just keep rereading #4 and maybe you will understand." -Mr. Sprinkles"

I understand what your saying, but your concept has a very large hole, lets follow your logic and see whats missing. So before the big bang there was no time, time did not exist, so there was never a time when there was nothing. That is what your trying to say, but look at the next step and this is where your problem comes in. So let's continue your logic at time zero, the time when the big bang began, when time began, then matter began, but where did it come from, how did time begin, what brought about time, it still requires some past energy or matter, if there was ever a period when there was no time because it did not exist then we would not exist. existance of energy or matter requires a beginning by your logic. there can not be a time zero, it is impossible because there would be nothing to bring about a time zero, what started the big bang? that why you can't find any scientist that subscribe to your idea, because it is impossible, wether you say time existed or not, your idea says the big bang was caused by nothing. that's why scientis are exploring the idea of the expanding universe that perhaps it is expanding out then will eventually collapse on itself and form another big bang, because they understand the fundamental concept that matter can not come from nothing. if you still wish to hang on to your theory answer that question for me, what started the big bang?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I understand what your saying, but your concept has a very large hole, lets follow your logic and see whats missing. So before the big bang there was no time, time did not exist, so there was never a time when there was nothing.

Yes

That is what your trying to say, but look at the next step and this is where your problem comes in. So let's continue your logic at time zero, the time when the big bang began, when time began, then matter began, but where did it come from, how did time begin, what brought about time, it still requires some past energy or matter,

It could have been caused by a random quantum event, or by a number of other things...I am no physicist, but the point is that matter does not have to exist stretching back for an infinite amount of time in order to satisfy the 'matter cannot be created' part of thermodynamics. The linear time that we experience is something of an illusion, as time in physics (as far as my understanding goes) is relative and finite (as are the first three dimensions, I believe, according to quantum mechanics)...not the infinite linear continuum that we think it is.

if there was ever a period when there was no time because it did not exist then we would not exist. existance of energy or matter requires a beginning by your logic. there can not be a time zero,

You are forgetting that time is not linear-- it is a relative concept that can have a beginning. We humans experience time as linear, but time is not linear, it is actually the fourth dimension and is used (as are the first three) to describe the position of an object in space. The Big Bang occurred at a position in space where time equals zero.

it is impossible because there would be nothing to bring about a time zero, what started the big bang?

There never was a nothing to bring about the big bang. The universe has always been. Reread number 4, and keep in mind that time is not an infinite linear continuum.

that why you can't find any scientist that subscribe to your idea, because it is impossible, wether you say time existed or not, your idea says the big bang was caused by nothing.

There could have been a number of causes, such as a random quantum event. String theory is another possibility, though I do not know much about it. The point is that something can seem to us to 'come from nothing' (like the Big Bang) when in fact we are only fooled by our human perception of time. And I never said there is no explaination for the Big Bang....only that matter can 'come from nothing' without violating thermodynamics (if the time that elapses 'before' the matter is 'created' is equal to zero).

that's why scientis are exploring the idea of the expanding universe that perhaps it is expanding out then will eventually collapse on itself and form another big bang, because they understand the fundamental concept that matter can not come from nothing.

What you are talking about is the closed-universe theory. Most scientists think that we live in an open-universe (that the galaxies will never come back together to form another big bang). This is because the calculated velocity at which the galaxies are traveling away from each other is increasing, not decreasing.

if you still wish to hang on to your theory answer that question for me, what started the big bang?

This is a very difficult question which requires a very complex answer. There is still a lot we do not know about the big bang, but one thing is very clear--it did occur, however the method.

My point is that just because there was possibly nothing "before" the big bang does not mean it violates thermodynamics, given our modern understanding of time.

One more thing--if I am misinformed on anything, please feel free to correct me.