where is God?

[Corban]

What's to say God can't make matter? He is not bound by the physical laws of this world.

obviously you don't understand the nature of God, let me enlighten you. First lets look at truth, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. there is not a seperation between scientific truth and religous truth. if something is true is it true in any sphere, if someone says Jesus is the Christ it is true, and it's true wether it's said in a baptist church a budhist temple or in a laboratory. if i say one plus one is two that is true. God is a God of truth, he follows true principles. you mistake the power of God, or atleast have a mistaken concept of it. Don't feel bad though most Christians do. what is a miracle? i'm sure you would answer as would most people, that a miracle is something that defies natural laws. natural laws like gravity or death, so if someone walked on water or raised the dead this would be a miracle. but God does not go against natural laws, He acts in accordance to higher laws that we don't always understand. If someone flew a helicopter a thousand years ago those that witnessed it would say it was a miracle, but even a child today would know it was not. Talking to someone across the planet would have been a miracle just a few hundred years ago, but now it happens everyday. The power of God is a real power, just like electricity, and it can be used to do things we don't understand, but this is not against natural laws, it just that we don't comprehend and we can not hold the power of God, except as He gives to us. God follows natural laws, the elements are eternal, and God as creator can direct them as He desires, but He does not create them they have always existed. It is false ideas like God creating matter where religionist and scientist think they are different, and false ideas like evolution where scientist and religionist think they are different, in the final winding up we will realize that all truth is eternal and true science and true religion will never conflict

 

[painted wolf]

I've always wondered about the belief that 'god' only speaks to certen people.

'god' never stopped talking, people stopped listening

everyone wants to be the "last chosen" prophet but who says 'god' needs prophets?

'god' has answered my prayers so I can't say 'god' isn't listening.

wa:do

 

[Corban]

I've always wondered about the belief that 'god' only speaks to certen people.

'god' never stopped talking, people stopped listening

everyone wants to be the "last chosen" prophet but who says 'god' needs prophets?

'god' has answered my prayers so I can't say 'god' isn't listening.

wa:do

Who says God needs prophets? well it was God so i'll take His word for it. Read Amos 3:7

 

[Master Vigil]

And who said god said anything, and who said the bible is what god said. The bible is what people say god said, it does not prove that god said anything.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

What's to say God can't make matter? He is not bound by the physical laws of this world.

obviously you don't understand the nature of God, let me enlighten you. First lets look at truth, all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. there is not a seperation between scientific truth and religous truth. if something is true is it true in any sphere, if someone says Jesus is the Christ it is true, and it's true wether it's said in a baptist church a budhist temple or in a laboratory. if i say one plus one is two that is true. God is a God of truth, he follows true principles. you mistake the power of God, or atleast have a mistaken concept of it. Don't feel bad though most Christians do. what is a miracle? i'm sure you would answer as would most people, that a miracle is something that defies natural laws. natural laws like gravity or death, so if someone walked on water or raised the dead this would be a miracle. but God does not go against natural laws, He acts in accordance to higher laws that we don't always understand. If someone flew a helicopter a thousand years ago those that witnessed it would say it was a miracle, but even a child today would know it was not. Talking to someone across the planet would have been a miracle just a few hundred years ago, but now it happens everyday. The power of God is a real power, just like electricity, and it can be used to do things we don't understand, but this is not against natural laws, it just that we don't comprehend and we can not hold the power of God, except as He gives to us. God follows natural laws, the elements are eternal, and God as creator can direct them as He desires, but He does not create them they have always existed. It is false ideas like God creating matter where religionist and scientist think they are different, and false ideas like evolution where scientist and religionist think they are different, in the final winding up we will realize that all truth is eternal and true science and true religion will never conflict

You question the power of God? God is not bound by natural laws. Jesus appearing in the midst of His disciples after His resurrection in flesh and blood form is an example of this. If you do say that God cannot create then you do not even have a clue as to what God really is. Therefore, you would not be able to rightly comment on "the nature of God" of God.

 

[Corban]

"You question the power of God? God is not bound by natural laws. Jesus appearing in the midst of His disciples after His resurrection in flesh and blood form is an example of this. If you do say that God cannot create then you do not even have a clue as to what God really is. Therefore, you would not be able to rightly comment on "the nature of God" of God." LCMS[/quote]

Wow, did you not read my post, Jesus appearing in the midst of His disciples is a great example of what i was talking about, just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it goes against natural laws, God does not go against natural laws, He acts in accordance with higher laws that we just don't always understand. if God had one apple and brought another apple how many would he have, the answer is the same as if we did it. God is a God of truth and always follows true principles. The power of God is a power beyond anything we can comprehend, but it is also a natural power, so when God uses that power it does not go against nature just because we don't have that power and don't understand how it works.

 

[Runt]

the word create as translated here comes from a Hebrew word meaning shaped, or fashioned.

Fine, I agree that your God could theoretically have shaped the world out of preexisting materials.... but if the matter with which the heavens and the earth were fashioned was NOT created by God, then where did it come from? For it to exist something OTHER than God must have therefore created it, because it is illogical to believe that it was always there (cause and effect--if matter exists then something must have caused its existence... and something must have caused the cause, and so on). That draws a line between that which God created and which God did not create, and even a line between the workings of the Universe for which God is responsible and those which God has nothing to do with. If there are things that God has nothing to do with--certain aspects of creation, certain workings of the universe--then God is limited. A limited God is not all-powerful. An God who is not all-powerful can have something more powerful than it. Something more powerful than God can destroy God... therefore God is finite.

So what do you have if you are right and God did not create matter? God would be limited, not all-powerful, finite. None of this fits in with Christian thought. Which gives you two options: either your ideas do not represent Christian thought (in which case I have to wonder why you are arguing from a Christian perspective) or you don't really believe your premise (that God "shaped" rather than created the heavens and the earth).

 

[Corban]

"Fine, I agree that your God could theoretically have shaped the world out of preexisting materials.... but if the matter with which the heavens and the earth were fashioned was NOT created by God, then where did it come from? For it to exist something OTHER than God must have therefore created it, because it is illogical to believe that it was always there" -Runt-

for an answer to that i would refer you to a fifth grade science class, ask them what the law of conservation of matter is, or ask einsteen about energy. They both say the same thing, matter can not be created or destroyed only changed. Even science teaches that everything has always existed, it is the same of energy, energy can not be created or destroyed only changed. For you to say anything was created is a lot more illogical because it goes against science and religion, and everyone person with even a tiny knowledge of science would attest to those basic principle of matter and energy we learned in the fifth grade. Both science and religion teach that everything has always existed, scientis say we came into existence because of the big bang, but ask them what happened before the band, where did all the matter come from that was involved, and where did the energy come from that created the bang, they will say it was there before.


"cause and effect--if matter exists then something must have caused its existence... and something must have caused the cause, and so on)."-Runt-

Exactly even you believe in the concept of infinity and that something has always existed, you said something must have caused the cause, and so on, well in order for that to be true the so on, must keep going on and on and on and never have a beginning or else where did that first cause come from, so we all belive in eternity, most people just don't think about it hard enough


"So what do you have if you are right and God did not create matter? God would be limited, not all-powerful, finite. None of this fits in with Christian thought. Which gives you two options: either your ideas do not represent Christian thought (in which case I have to wonder why you are arguing from a Christian perspective)" -Runt-

That's a great point, alot of what i say doesn't fit in with popular Christian thought, yet i argue from a Christian perspective because I represent the truth of Christianity, for more of this i refer you to my post title "Christians, who are they" which explains that in more detail

 

[Runt]

Even science teaches that everything has always existed, it is the same of energy, energy can not be created or destroyed only changed.

Yes, this is true... and yet virtual particles are popping in and out of existence all the time. So matter can be created and destroyed (what happens if you collide an electron and its antimatter equivalent-a positron? They annihilate one another and create two photons. What happens if a scientist attempts to measure one of those photons? Its wave function collapses and it is destroyed.)

If you want to take it back to the basics of energy, then fine... God was working with energy but it existed independently of him; he did not create it. So where did IT come from?

The implications remain the same as my original example. And responded to me above, but you were still ignoring my basic question: If God did not create something, then how can you claim that God is all-powerful?

 

[Ardhanariswar]

wow, how come everthing as to be mixed with reason and science?

sum european dude made up three theories on the existance of God and evil.
1. he is all powerful, but hes not good.
2. he is good, but not all powerful.
3. he is not good nor powerful.

well i disagree with this dude. how can the man mind try to reason the existance of God? our human brain, i believe cannot comprehend God. that is why Hindus describe him as the undescribable (talk about a paradox!) and that he is everwhere. because good is everwhere. so thats why hindus worship the attritibutes of God cuz its easier and straightforward to worship God. we cannot reduce God into *our* reasoning.

well, i dont at least.

 

[Corban]

"If you want to take it back to the basics of energy, then fine... God was working with energy but it existed independently of him; he did not create it. So where did IT come from?" -Runt-

I don't think our finite minds can comprehend the infinite, where did it come from? it didn't come, It is eternal. and both science and religion agree on that

" If God did not create something, then how can you claim that God is all-powerful?"

God is all powerful because He has all powers, creating matter is not a power to have therefore it is not included in all powers because it is not a power, God has all the powers that exist.

 

[Master Vigil]

So what makes your finite mind any better than our finite minds? How do you know your finite mind knows that god is infinite, and how can you talk about the infinite if your finite mind can not understand the infinite no more than the rest of us?

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"If you want to take it back to the basics of energy, then fine... God was working with energy but it existed independently of him; he did not create it. So where did IT come from?" -Runt-

I don't think our finite minds can comprehend the infinite, where did it come from? it didn't come, It is eternal. and both science and religion agree on that

" If God did not create something, then how can you claim that God is all-powerful?"

God is all powerful because He has all powers, creating matter is not a power to have therefore it is not included in all powers because it is not a power, God has all the powers that exist.

First off, science does not contend matter is eternal. In fact it is a common scientific community presumption that the universe as we know it came into existence about 15-20 billion years ago. Modern day scientific theory does not agree with religious interpretation of creation either. It is thought that for the first 3 million years, there was nothing but energy (that's right, no matter). Matter is not a constant, nor is energy. There are ways to turn matter into energy (the atomic bomb, an example of destroying matter). This shows that science does not agree that matter is indeed a constant. Basically, we must look at the three aspects of God. God is all powerful (He can do anything. Now, I believe anything would be anything- including the creation of both matter and energy). God is always present. Finally, God is all knowing. While the last two really don't apply right now to this debate, the first aspect of God does. He is all powerful and therefore can do anything He wants to do. He created the laws of this world. Therefore, the laws of this world cannot bind Him.

 

[Corban]

"First off, science does not contend matter is eternal. In fact it is a common scientific community presumption that the universe as we know it came into existence about 15-20 billion years ago." -LCMS-

Wow i can't believe people are debating that, ask the scientific community, yes they believe the universe as we know it came into exitence about 15-20 billion years ago, but ask them what happened before that, i guarantee you will not find anyone with knowledge of science that will tell you matter didn't exist before then. the universe came into existence then, the matter that makes up the universe did not it always existed. Seriously, that's blows my mind that you argue that point, that should be a given, go do a little research before you pretend to speak with authority.

I'm going to give you a basic science lesson that you should have learned in elementary school, but first a few more points.

"Matter is not a constant, nor is energy. There are ways to turn matter into energy (the atomic bomb, an example of destroying matter)"

Again wow, look at your argument, what did i say about matter it can not be created or destroyed only changed, an atomic bomb does not destroy matter, it releases the energy that is present in matter, and changes the matter. it is not a destruction it is a change.


"This shows that science does not agree that matter is indeed a constant."

No, this shows you don't understand science

"He created the laws of this world. Therefore, the laws of this world cannot bind Him"

Let me ask you this question, and i would love to have an answer from anyone that says God does not follow natural laws, If i gave God a math test with only one question as follows: what is one plus one, what answer would God write down, would He put two. i hope so since that's right and God is all knowing, but does He have to put two, what if He wanted to put five, would He be right. now i'm not talking well if God had one apple and and I gave Him another how many would he have, and you say well He could just create three more apples so He would have five, no, that would change the question, i'm talking simply one plus one, God would write two, because it is true and God is a God of truth, and the fact that one plus one equals two is a true principle. just as the fact the matter can not be created or destroyed only changed. Now does that limit God, no truth is not limiting it is enobling, God is not limited by the fact that one plus one is two, so if asked he would have to put two, that is not limiting it enobles him to follow that true principle, just as the fact that matter can not be created or destroyed does not limit God, it enobles Him to follow that correct principle


Now here's your science lesson to catch you up:
, you should have learned this in elementary school, if you want to confirm it talk to anyone who studies science beyond watching the discovery channel

Conversion of one type of matter into another are always accompanied by the conversion of one form of energy into another. Usually heat is leveled or absorbed, but sometimes the conversion involves light or electrical energy instead of, or in addition to heat. Many transformations of energy, of course, do not involve chemical changes. Electrical energy can be changed into either mechanical, light, heat or potential energy without chemical changes. Mechanical energy is converted into electrical energy in a generator. Potential and kinetic energy can be converted into one another. Many other conversions are possible, but all of the energy involved in any change always appears in some form after the change is completed.

The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form.

The total quantity of matter and energy available in the universe is a fixed amount and never any more or less.

God is not God because He makes all the rules, God is God because He follows them

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

If God is bound by the laws of this world, then how is he God? If he is bound by the rules of this world, then he cannot occupy all places at one. He is infinite; that is not possible by natural physical laws. Name the way He fitted into the laws of nature when he appeared to the disciples. That defied the laws of nature. In reference to my scientific resources, I was using information out of an Astronomy textbook I had just recently used during a college study program. In truth, scientists have no clue what existed before the "Big Bang" so they would never be able to tell you if matter (or energy for that matter) really existed at all before then.

 

[Corban]

If God is bound by the laws of this world, then how is he God? If he is bound by the rules of this world, then he cannot occupy all places at one. He is infinite; that is not possible by natural physical laws. Name the way He fitted into the laws of nature when he appeared to the disciples. That defied the laws of nature. In reference to my scientific resources, I was using information out of an Astronomy textbook I had just recently used during a college study program. In truth, scientists have no clue what existed before the "Big Bang" so they would never be able to tell you if matter (or energy for that matter) really existed at all before then.

I do not doubt your source I doubt your understanding of it, i'm sure your book says the universe is 15 billion years old, but go ask your proffessor about the law of conservation of matter and energy, and ask if matter existed before that.

Also God is not bound by laws, it is His obeying of laws that gives him power, am i bound by His commandments because now i can not sin, no living his commandments does not confine me it frees me from the consequences of sin. i would ask you, could jesus sin? the answer sure he could but did he? no he was perfect, was he bound by not wanting to sin, was he confined when satan tempted him because he had to do what is right? no but we know what he would answer satan because he is perfect, we also know that he follows true laws according to the same reason. he is a perfect God that follows true principles perfectly, you saying God would go against natural laws is like saying Jesus could sin, so before you reply with another post that reiterates what you don't know answer me that, could jesus sin? was he bound by satan in his temptations because he had to do what was right?

to answer your question of how he conformed to natural laws when he appeared to his disciples, as i said before, we don't understand God's ways, but that doesn't mean their impossible or some how defying nature, ask someone two hundred years ago how i could watch a live picture of a newsreporter in Iraq, and they would say wow that's a miracle.

 

[painted wolf]

Who says God needs prophets? well it was God so i'll take His word for it. Read Amos 3:7

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

wow, that realy limits the power of 'god' to do anything in the world doesn't it.

Thankfully I don't believe in limiting 'god' in this way just because a book says so.
I think again that its a question of people not listening. They are too caught up in passages like Amos 3:7 to seek 'god' in todays world.

wa:do

 

[Corban]

"wow, that realy limits the power of 'god' to do anything in the world doesn't it.

Thankfully I don't believe in limiting 'god' in this way just because a book says so.
I think again that its a question of people not listening. They are too caught up in passages like Amos 3:7 to seek 'god' in todays world."


where do you get your concept of God, do you not believe the things he said in the bible or do you not believe in the bible, Amos 3:7 does not limit God, it just explains how he works, God could talk in other ways but he chose this way and he told us that. why do you think to command God, and say he doesn't talk through prophets when he said he did.

Also i am not saying God only speaks through prophets, God can talk to us individually but he uses prophets to speak to everyone,

 

[Runt]

God is all powerful because He has all powers, creating matter is not a power to have therefore it is not included in all powers because it is not a power, God has all the powers that exist.

That seems like a very juvenile explanation to me. It implies that there is something God CANNOT do. It implies that God is bound by laws. Do you not think that an All-Powerful God would be able to do ANYTHING it wants, that it would NOT be bound by anything? Any other option has, again, the exact same implications as before. Such a God comes out being limited and therefore not all-powerful. Or such a God comes out being nothing.

And I think you have it backwards. I think our finite minds are perfectly capable of perceiving infinity. We do it all the time: we envision space, God, irrational numbers, time, the chain of cause and effect.

Therefore, perhaps INFINITY is merely a product of our finite minds. Perhaps these things really did not go on forever. Perhaps there was actually a beginning of Time, of Space, of everything we conceive of as infinite, and before that was literally NOTHING.

Perhaps the concept we truly have difficulty coping with IS this idea of nothingness. No time. No space. No God. No chain of cause and effect. And somehow, out of this nothingness springs everything, reality as we know it and can conceive of it.

It is a concept I can speak of… but not one I can truly envision, because we truly do not have a single thing within our existence to compare to nothing. Even as I try to imagine nothingness I still imagine nothingness for X amount of time and then everything… which does not work, because this “period of nothingness” would not have been bound by time.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

what if we have infinite minds? oh no... thats souls. bahh *is confused*