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Featured Where is God when awful things happen?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SearchingForGod, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    You're not talking about pain then, you're talking about the emotional feelings you attribute to pain.

    Not all pain prompts those feelings. (have you really never experienced minor pain??)

    So essentially you are saying you agree with me, the feelings and emotions interpreting the signal are what is important. And we cannot develop feelings or emotions on the topic of anything without conceiving of its inverse.

    If you need proof of this, I issue a challenge. Can you give me any attribute that you apply to the world around you that does not have an opposite?? Any adjective at all??

    Or any emotion?? Can you give me anything you recognize as an emotional state within yourself that does not have an opposite??

    Human beings can only conceive of things in terms of "is" and "is not". Definition of any "is" implicitly defines what "is not"
     
  2. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    I don't treat 'happiness' as merely being endorphin high. As a matter of fact, I know no one who treats it this way. Even more so because it is an oversimplification. For starters, if it was all about endorphin, then antidepressants would have nothing to do with serotonin.
     
  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    The whole point of the question, "why doesn't God stop the bad things from happening to us?" presumes that the bad things really are bad, and that they should not be happening to us.
    Just because "Bob" claims that his God is comprehensible doesn't mean that 'God' is comprehensible. All it means is that Bob's idea of God is somewhat comprehensible, to Bob. But Bob's idea of God, and 'God', are not the same things, except to Bob.
    Yes, it becomes confusing figuring out ways of designating an actual metaphysical entity; i.e., 'God', an individual person's own conceptualization of such an entity, that he calls "God", and the general ideological mystery referred to, culturally, as a god.
     
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  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Odd yet again. You say there's no good and bad and then you tell me my view is bad,
    And this, too, you say is bad.
    ie is bad.
    ie is bad.
    ie are bad.
    And this would be good.
    And that's bad.
    Gee, real bad.
    ie be bad.
    From bad to very bad!
    ie be bad.
    ie irrational is bad.

    And so on. Game over.
     
    #84 blü 2, Aug 18, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  5. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    God is conveniently absent for resolving any real issue that theists use an apology for in stating that man must solve his own problems. It seems to me that perhaps if man is to solve his own problems, he should logically be excluding god from the equation.

    After all, if all god can do is help someone find his car keys, then he seems rather useless.

    Furthermore, if god is to be thanked for a doctor's work, then what use are doctors?

    In the end, psychologically speaking, imagining a father figure may provide proper personal comfort for an absentee god, but reality bites like a viper.
     
  6. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Why is that?
     
  7. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    So, would you know the difference between 'hot' and 'cold' in this world?

    I think you proved the principle pretty nicely yourself.

    Same goes for good and evil.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Where did satan come from? Did God create him? :shrug:

    The Bible indicates that he was once a perfect, free willed spirit creature whose magnificence led him to envy the worship given to the Creator. He had no opportunity in the spirit realm to gain worship because all the other spirit beings were his equal....all he could be was their leader if he had opportunity to form a coup.

    With the creation of man, satan saw his chance to hijack lower beings and become the god he wanted to be. In a calculated move, he targeted the newbie, the more vulnerable and less educated of the pair. When she was alone, he used a serpent to ask some subtle questions, designed to plant seeds of doubt in her mind regarding God's intentions and his motives in keeping a "knowledge of good and evil" under his own jurisdiction. She fell for the whole thing and disobeyed a direct command that carried the death penalty. Her response to the devil's question revealed that she knew what she was doing. It was blatant disobedience motivated by self interest.

    When her husband came along and she offered him the fruit, he understood all the implications of what she had done....so he had two choices.....join her and die with her, or reject her offer and lose her. In forcing Adam to make that emotional choice, the devil took a calculated risk....and it paid off. He was the target all along. He got to the man through the woman. (Romans 5:12) The fate of the entire human race rested on his choice.

    Satan was an appointed guardian angel in Eden, "a covering cherub" according to Ezekiel 28:12-15.....

    “‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In Eʹden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you."

    No one knows satan's real name. It isn't Lucifer, as many assume. God has never allowed satan's real name to be revealed. He is known only by his titles......"satan" (resister) and "devil" (slanderer).

    The devil knew what he was doing when he tempted the woman, but he stupidly underestimated God's response to his scheme. Humans had the ability to live forever because of having access to the "tree of life" in the garden. He probably assumed he could have worshippers who would never die. But God barred access to the tree of life and satan's scheme backfired on him. Because his worshippers would die, he had to constantly recruit more. He is tireless in his efforts.

    He targets all humans with the same temptations he has always used. He doesn't change his tactics, because he knows they work. Only those individuals who have formed their own close relationship with the true God can resist him, just like Jesus did.

    When Jesus was tempted after his baptism, the devil used appeals to self interest to undermine Christ's resolve to remain faithful. In Luke 4:5-8 it is revealed that rulership of this world was "delivered" to satan, and that he could give authority to 'whomever he wished'. This is why Jesus told us to be "no part of this world". (1 John 5:19; John 15:18-21)

    With each temptation, Jesus responded with "It is written", referring always to God's word. Those who face the subtle temptations of the devil today need to do the same. If the big things don't get you, the little things will.

    There is not one scripture that says satan rules over a place called "hell"....that is a concocted falsehood. Hell in the Bible is simply mankind's common grave. People sleep peacefully there. They are not conscious and are not capable of any thought or activity. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) There is no immortal part of man that lives on after death. That is satan's way of perpetuating his first lie...."you surely will not die". When human's succumbed to death, he had to lead them to believe that they lived on......invisibly in another realm. That is not what God told Adam. (Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:19)

    The devil knows his fate, but the only way he can win (in his own mind) is to take as many down with him as he can....therefore, everyone is a target. He has no compassion for the innocent. No love even for the wicked.

    Does God stop him from trying to tempt humans away from true worship? No, because then we all have an opportunity to prove who we really are in our own hearts and minds. If we search for God with a humble and open heart devoid of pre-conceptions about what "we" want to be true, God will find us.....we will not be left floundering in spiritual darkness. If our hearts are closed and we search only for what "we" want in a religion, then God will never "draw" us to his truth. (John 6:44)
    We have to want what he is offering. He will never alter his plans to suit selfish humans.

    The Bible says that "satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) pretending to be what he is not. People fall for his lies as they have always done, but now, in this "time of the end" he has intensified his efforts. He is no longer subtle....he is in all our faces. The entertainment industry is a great vehicle for dispensing his propaganda. Sex and violence are his stock in trade and always have been. He even targets our children with spiritistic overtones even in their cartoons. Spiritism too is one of his favourite tactics. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    Those forewarned are forearmed to fight the good fight and stand firm in the face of colossal odds. We can do it if we have God on our side. If we don't then there is the real possibility that the end of this system of satan's rulership will be the end of our existence as well. :(

    This makes a great deal of sense to me.
     
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  9. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    Thank you for taking the time to post this. I posted in a thread recently on here about Lucifer and the story (briefer lol) from the Bible and many seem to think that there are no such stories about Lucifer/Satan in the Bible. I happen to think upon reading about Lucifer in different texts that he could exist, or Satan could exist as an actual spirit of some type.

    Anyways, thank you for the reply. :)
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I must have missed your thread, sorry.

    I found this interesting.....

    "• Is Lucifer a name that the Bible uses for Satan?

    The name Lucifer occurs once in the Scriptures and only in some versions of the Bible. For example, the King James Version renders Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

    The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.” Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.

    Who is this Lucifer? The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.—Isaiah 14:4,15, 16.

    Why is such an eminent description given to the Babylonian dynasty? We must realize that the king of Babylon was to be called the shining one only after his fall and in a taunting way. (Isaiah 14:3) Selfish pride prompted Babylon’s kings to elevate themselves above those around them. So great was the arrogance of the dynasty that it is portrayed as bragging: “To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. . . . I shall make myself resemble the Most High.”—Isaiah 14:13, 14.

    “The stars of God” are the kings of the royal line of David. (Numbers 24:17) From David onward, these “stars” ruled from Mount Zion. After Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, the name Zion came to apply to the whole city. Under the Law covenant, all male Israelites were obliged to travel to Zion three times a year. Thus, it became “the mountain of meeting.” By determining to subjugate the Judean kings and then remove them from that mountain, Nebuchadnezzar is declaring his intention to put himself above those “stars.” Instead of giving Jehovah credit for the victory over them, he arrogantly puts himself in Jehovah’s place. So it is after being cut down to the earth that the Babylonian dynasty is mockingly referred to as the “shining one.”

    The pride of the Babylonian rulers indeed reflected the attitude of “the god of this system of things”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not a name Scripturally given to Satan.

    (Excerpt from 2002 Watchtower "Questions from Readers")
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    We humans like to embody our ideas. We have statues of Liberty, images of Madame Justice with her blindfold and sword, the Brits have Britannia, compare Uncle Sam, the Muses embody dance, song, poetry, and we keep them around.

    I think they're concepts, abstractions, personifications that appeal to human psychology. I don't think there's a real Britannia, I have no reports of Uncle Sam saving anyone or preventing anything (Captain America, maybe, but he's commercial).

    So I wonder if your tentative Lucifer / Satan / Dr Evil figure is such an abstraction, or whether you actually think the varmint is out there?
     
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  12. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    I've been thinking about the possibility of a spirit world, lately. Like what existed before the beginning of the beginning, you know? When we read 'lore and mythology about Satan, etc...or even the religious texts where he the story is taught as literal, it would seem that this would all have to take place before Time. I know it's hard to imagine this, but it's just something I've been pondering, lately.

    To answer your question, he could be posting on RF, right this very minute. :D
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You're not talking about Isaiah 14, are you? If you are, that's not about the fall of an angel. As it plainly says in 14:4, "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon" meaning Nebuchadnezzar.
    It's obvious that you've never read the Garden story in Genesis, or you'd know that nothing of what you've said is mentioned in it. I set out some notes in this thread that make the point,
    That reminds me to ask. Where in or near Israel is the mountain Jesus and the devil went up (Matt 4:8-9, Luke 4:5) from which they could see China? I mean, it's less than 2000 years ago, so it can't have gone far, but it's not on Google Earth.
     
    #93 blü 2, Aug 18, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    On RF? No! The rascal!
     
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  15. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    There are other passages about the fall of Lucifer...but I'll post them tomorrow. How strange, I keep running into this topic of debating the credibility of these passages in order to ''prove'' Lucifer's fall from grace. o_O
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No. I was referring to Ezekiel 28 which I quoted in my post. It was addressed to the King of Tyre. [​IMG]

    Ezekiel 28:12-15:
    “‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In Eʹden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you."

    Though addressed to the King of Tyre, it is clearly describing satan....unless this king was a covering cherub in the garden of Eden and too magnificent in beauty for words to accurately convey? [​IMG]

    The apostle John identifies that "original serpent" as "satan the devil". (Revelation 12:9) In Job it says that "the sons of God came to take their station before Jehovah and satan entered in right among them" (Job 1:6) When asked where he came from satan replied...“From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.” So this was a spirit being roving about on earth...up to no good as we can see from what he did to Job.

    As to Lucifer please refer to post #90.

    The story is conveyed in other parts of the Bible.

    When satan said to the woman "you will be like God" ...he was really describing his own ambitions. He wanted worship and even offered "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange for one act of worship from God's own son. He betrayed what had led him into his selfish course.

    1 Tim 2:14 says...."Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor."

    But her response to the devil's question proved that she knew what she was doing. He didn't have to do much coaxing.

    Genesis 3:1-6:
    "So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”
    6 Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it."


    Many great empires existed in the first century.....who said they could see only China? [​IMG]
    Since Jesus was shown "all the kingdoms on earth in an instant of time", I think he means supernaturally. [​IMG] either that or he did a santa claus trip around the world in a very short time.
     
  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm You seem to think that humans, because they lived in a past era, are by default stupid. Not the case.
     
  18. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Wow, what interesting powers you have. You actually are able to discern what "most Christians believe". If you could somehow apply this ability to the stock market, or Vegas, you could become a billionaire. My advice to you is to be concerned about what you believe, and preach it and teach it. God has given you no order to judge what others believe. If they reject your message, do as instructed and move on. Judging hearts is waay beyond the pay grade of any Christian. Only God knows the true Church, the body of Christ who are found in every part of Christendom.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Ah, the tale's the thing! Backed by the perfect freedom to take it wheresoever is pleasing at the moment!

    Enjoy!
     
  20. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    You're claiming "Christian", do you believe you have authority over the world? It doesn't sound like it!

    I'm not judging anyone's "heart". If you talk to enough "Christians", and hear what they believe, how is that judging? I know of only a handful of "Christians" who believe that we have authority over the earth. Many, do not believe it. Go thru this thread alone and see how many "Christians" believe that God allows disaster, so we can do nothing about it. Knowing fact, is not judgment.
     
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