Where is God during disasters?

[JerryL]

Oh they were? I didn't know that. You must know them, then?

Yea, I met them on my trip back to ancient messopotamia.

He didn't create a universe with disasters, or believe me, there'd be much, much more.

So God is not all powerful as someone else created or modified the rules of the universe against his will? What a wuss.

How many times you want that answered? Your blanket reply Most of them were Christians was a cheap shot based on zero evidence.

Once would be good.

The reason God created / allowed Hurricane Katrina is _________

 

[michel]

It has nothing to do with interpretation and everything to do with the logical consequences of omniscience and omnipotence.

Have we not already come to the conclusion that nothing about Religion is "Logical" ? - why then try to attribute logic to God's characteristics ?

 

[JerryL]

Perhaps God 'allows' disasters to bring out the best in others; I don't know if you have noticed, but many people gather around at these times to lend a hand, help, whatever........The worst events make people do good deeds - some may well do things (as in helping) that they would never have thought of before.

Like the insane Garbiel in "Constantine"? God kills and tortures and causes suffering that inspires some to raping and looting so that some others are inspired to be nice? This is your position?

Would this not be an assertion that the ends (some people being nice) justify the means (death, destruction, suffering)?

I don't believe God creates disasters; man does by his incompetant attitude towards this wonderful planet we were given. He does not 'allow' or 'stop' disasters, because they are a part of nature.

Which is it? Created by man or part of nature?

And who made nature? Oh yea... God. It's like saying of the person I've just shot: "I didn't cause him to be shot, it's just part of the gun"

 

[michel]

So God is not all powerful as someone else created or modified the rules of the universe against his will?

Unlike some people, if they were all-powerful, would wield this power to keep everything in line, God embedded free will into His creation. One of His creations used it against Him, and the rest is history.

What a wuss.

That would apt describe Lucifer, who did the modifying of the rules to his advantage.

 

[Ori]

Unlike some people, if they were all-powerful, would wield this power to keep everything in line, God embedded free will into His creation. One of His creations used it against Him, and the rest is history.

That would apt describe Lucifer, who did the modifying of the rules to his advantage.

Ah, but old Lucy must have a reason for existing, otherwise God would not allow it to exist.

 

[michel]

Michel, what do you do with these verses?

Genesis 7:12 = AND THE RAIN WAS UPON THE EARTH FORTY DAYS AND FORTY NIGHTS.

Genesis 19:24 = THEN THE LORD RAINED UPON SODOM AND GOMORRAH BRIMSTONE AND FIRE FROM THE LORD OUT OF HEAVEN;

Jonah 4:8 = AND IT CAME TO PASS, WHEN THE SUN DID ARISE, THAT GOD DID PREPARE A VEHEMENT EAST WIND;

Not to mention the 10 Plagues of Egypt and the events recorded in Revelation.

This may well fall under the heading of "Differences between different faiths", and please forgive and correct me if I am wrong (Knowing me that is not at all unlikely) - I understood that the Old testament was an 'errant historical record' - whereas the new testament is the teachings of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Green Gaia]

New thread and a poll on this subject. Although I'm not locking this thread.

 

[michel]

Like the insane Garbiel in "Constantine"? God kills and tortures and causes suffering that inspires some to raping and looting so that some others are inspired to be nice? This is your position?

Would this not be an assertion that the ends (some people being nice) justify the means (death, destruction, suffering)?

Which is it? Created by man or part of nature?

And who made nature? Oh yea... God. It's like saying of the person I've just shot: "I didn't cause him to be shot, it's just part of the gun"

God did not make nature; he 'delivered the goods' so that nature would eventually be created out of abiogenesis.

Man, as you know full well is responsible for Global warming; global warming is what aggravated the hurricane. It was man's playing with nature that made this hurricane as bad as it was.

 

[michel]

This may well fall under the heading of "Differences between different faiths", and please forgive and correct me if I am wrong (Knowing me that is not at all unlikely) - I understood that the Old testament was an 'errant historical record' - whereas the new testament is the teachings of God through Jesus Christ.

All 66 books of the Bible were inspired by God. Paul says ALL SCRIPTURE in 2 Timothy 3:16, and in 1 Timothy 5:18 he quotes two verses and calls them both 'Scripture'. One verse is from the Old Testament, and the other verse is from the New Testament.

In addition, the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 is reading Isaiah 53, and Luke calls it 'Scripture' in verse 32.

Jesus favorite OT book is Deuteronomy, and quoted from it to defeat Satan in Matthew 4.

In addition, when Jesus met the two men on the road to Emmaus, Luke records:

AND BEGINNING AT MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, HE EXPOUNDED UNTO THEM IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF.

Jesus verified Jonah - (Matthew 12:40) - and Daniel (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14); and James verified Job - (James 5:11).

And this is not to mention the many, many OT quotes that appear throughout the NT.

 

[Green Gaia]

global warming is what aggravated the hurricane. It was man's playing with nature that made this hurricane as bad as it was.

Sorry michel, but there's no way to know that at this time, it's just speculation. The most the "experts" are saying right now is that it's possible.

Katrina reignites debate over global warming

Roger Pielke Jr., who studies the social impacts of natural disasters and climate change at the University of Colorado, said any link between the intensity of Katrina and other recent hurricanes and global warming is "premature." Most forecasts suggest climate change would increase hurricane wind speeds by 5 percent or less later in this century.

 

[Snowbear]

As you have noted ~ though God does at times create havoc, whether or not people think they deserve it, I gotta disagree with this blanket statement:

An omniscient and omnipotent God does not 'allow' - he creates/orchestrates.

The Bible gives many accounts of bad things being allowed to happen to people... even good people. i.e. the book of Job outlines a God who allows "Satan" (a powerful angel, created by God, who used his free will to turn against God) to bring all sorts of 'misfortune' upon Job... including the loss of his crops, farm, livestock, family and health. If He can allow bad things to happen then, why not now?

He defines and implements the laws of nature knowing and intending each and every consequence in the most minute detail. Every shattered building slamming into every shattered child is every bit as much a part of his plan' as is yesterday's Big Bang or tomorrow's sunset.

Yup. But He also has the power to shield or protect the children who were not shattered by the shattered buildings.... it seems there are always remarkable stories of survival against all odds that come out of events such as this.
Maybe He needs those to stick around a little longer to be part of His overall plan?? I dunno... He hasn't made me privy to His plan for me, much less His plan for anyone else.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As you have noted ~ though God does at times create havoc, whether or not people think they deserve it, I gotta disagree ...

Disagree all you wish, but,

• so long as you claim God is omniscient, you claim that he was fully aware of all the consequences of all process he created, and
• so long as you claim God is omnipotent, you claim he was fully capable of creating different processes having different consequences.

This is the description of uncompromised intentionality and culpability.

 

[Snowbear]

Disagree all you wish, but,

• so long as you claim God is omniscient, you claim that he was fully aware of all the consequences of all process he created, and
• so long as you claim God is omnipotent, you claim he was fully capable of creating different processes having different consequences.

This is the description of uncompromised intentionality and culpability.

Right. I didn't claim otherwise.... at least I don't think I did.

Again, what I disagreed with was the part where you said God doesn't 'allow' stuff to happen. He can and He does. AFAIK, that doesn't mean He's not omniscient or omnipotent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Again, what I disagreed with was the part where you said God doesn't 'allow' stuff to happen. He can and He does. AFAIK, that doesn't mean He's not omniscient or omnipotent.

Why would you prefer the term 'allow' over 'orchestrate' if not solely to temper the sense of culpability?

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Man, as you know full well is responsible for Global warming; global warming is what aggravated the hurricane. It was man's playing with nature that made this hurricane as bad as it was.

Katrina is only the third most intense hurricane to make landfall in the USA. The two before it were in 1935 and 1969...looks to be running in about 35 year cycles by the looks of things...and the intensity is diminishing.

We can all blame global warming, but even the experts can't agree whether it makes a difference or not. Going just by the three hurricanes I just mentioned, if it has an effect then it's actuall making things better. A bit more global warming and a storm in a teacup will be the biggest thing we'll have to worry about.

 

[Darkdale]

To be honest, if the gods didn't put the health of our earth and climate ahead of us, they'd truly be a very cruel and stupid group of gods. Damn right the gods orchestrated Katrina. I thank the gods for the storms they send, for the earthquakes they send and for the volcanic eruptions they send; because if these things didn't happen, we would not have an earth to live on. Thankfully the gods are there to offer us comfort in the wake of disaster, but we are not their priority. The universe has to work how it works. We can either learn to live with it or in spite of it.

 

[Snowbear]

Why would you prefer the term 'allow' over 'orchestrate' if not solely to temper the sense of culpability?

Huh? I'm not preferring anything. I'm disputing what you said when you claimed, "An omniscient and omnipotent God does not 'allow' - he creates/orchestrates."
Where did I ever say God doesn't create/orchestrate? How is saying that God "allows" things to happen implying I'm tempering the sense of culpability?

Once again, a God who is omniscient and omnipotent can BOTH allow AND create/orchestrate and know the consequences and details.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The universe has to work how works.

So much for omnipotence.

 

[Darkdale]

So much for omnipotence.

how so? (anyway, I don't believe the gods are omnipotent; I just didn't know where your conclusion came from. I'm slow like that)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The universe has to work how works.

So much for omnipotence.

how so? (anyway, I don't believe the gods are omnipotent; I just didn't know where your conclusion came from. I'm slow like that)

• The universe has to work how works. <therefore>
• The universe cannot be made to work other than how works. <therefore>
• The universe cannot be made by God(s) to work other than how works. <therefore>
• God(s) is not omnipotent.