Where Is Everybody? Where Are The Aliens?

[james bond]

Let us not forget that analog RF transmissions only occured for about a century and are now almost wholly replaced by digital RF transmissions that are virtually indistinguishable from background noise unless you have very specific information concerning the decoding process. Someone would have to be listening at precisely right time to get the analog version.

Assuming the aliens are more advanced than us, wouldn't you think they would have observed us enough to come up with some type of transmission that we would understand? In other words, they assume that we do not understand until they get a message back. Any group worth contacting is worth trying to contact until successful or we get a message not to bother them again.

 

[Polymath257]

Assuming the aliens are more advanced than us, wouldn't you think they would have observed us enough to come up with some type of transmission that we would understand? In other words, they assume that we do not understand until they get a message back. Any group worth contacting is worth trying to contact until successful or we get a message not to bother them again.

Why would you
1) assume they have been to this backwater
2) want to communicate with us?

You seem to assume we are worth contacting.

But again, why do you assume they have been anywhere close to us? Or that they haven't already died out?

 

[james bond]

Sorry, but you clearly do NOT understand he special theory of relativity.

First, and most important for your argument, the time dilation effect goes both ways: if two observers are moving with respect to each other, BOTH see the clocks of the other as moving slower. It is a symmetric situation. How it is possible for both to see the other clocks as going slower is called the Twin Paradox and is resolved in relativity by taking into account acceleration.

It is NOT the case that time moves faster at the edge of the universe.

Funny, you say I do not understand. No need for insults. Most of the time, I don't insult you even though you don't understand. Basically, read the links I provided for Starlight & Time by Dr. Russell Humphreys.

BTW, here's a youtube I found on it just now. Hope it's good. Have to watch when I get a chance.

 

[james bond]

Why would you
1) assume they have been to this backwater
2) want to communicate with us?

You seem to assume we are worth contacting.

But again, why do you assume they have been anywhere close to us? Or that they haven't already died out?

Elementary, my dear Watson. Any civilization with people who believe in Jesus Christ is worth contacting.

 

[Darkstorn]

Elementary, my dear Watson. Any civilization with people who believe in Jesus Christ is worth contacting.

This is just empty proselytizing.

Incidentally, it shows your actual MO and agenda. You don't care about a honest debate, and you most certainly don't care about science. You care about trying to indoctrinate people by parroting the same stuff over and over again.

It's lost its charm. I no longer find it funny, just tiring. There is no effort needed to argue you when this is the actual message of your words. Your arguments are nonsensical by themselves, without outside interaction.

Funny, you say I do not understand. No need for insults. Most of the time, I don't insult you even though you don't understand.

How delusional can you possibly be? You are doing the very thing you accused him of, while saying that you are NOT doing it??

Hint: "You don't understand" is the same thing as "you don't understand."

 

[`mud]

Do I sense that aliens from outer space believe in `Jesus` as Christians do ??
Bond said:"... Any civilization with people who believe in Jesus Christ is worth contacting."
Aleins believe in Jesus do they ? I'm becoming confused at this statement !

 

[syo]

In other words, the Bible does not state that God created aliens.

it focuses on life on earth. aliens aren't needed.

 

[`mud]

Accidental edit on my part above somewhere, did anyone catch it ?

 

[Polymath257]

Funny, you say I do not understand. No need for insults. Most of the time, I don't insult you even though you don't understand. Basically, read the links I provided for Starlight & Time by Dr. Russell Humphreys.

BTW, here's a youtube I found on it just now. Hope it's good. Have to watch when I get a chance.

The difference is that I *do* understand special and general relativity. I have also read some papers from Humphreys, as opposed to the popularized stuff in videos. What Humphreys doesn't mention is that to get the time dilation would require a density of mass so large that anything on the Earth would be crushed by the gravitational field. So that simply doesn't work if you want there to be life on Earth in the first 6 days.

It should also be pointed out that he does NOT give an actual solution to Einstein's field equations, but instead adds velocity as a separate dimension (thereby completely negating it as velocity, which is distance divided by time, both of which are other dimensions). So, he uses bad physics, bad math, and generally bad reasoning to force his conclusions based on Biblical statements (as he himself admits).

And, let's face it, he doesn't deal with things like the cosmic background radiation (which would not be generated in his model at all).

Finally, in the video, at time 14:00 or so, he claims that there is evidence of a rotating universe. This has since been debunked, so the whole thing is out of date at that point.

Elementary, my dear Watson. Any civilization with people who believe in Jesus Christ is worth contacting.

I'm going to assume that is simply a joke. Why aliens would care about an itinerant preacher from 2000 years ago is beyond me.

 

[james bond]

Just real quick, you're going to need to clarify what your abbreviations mean before you start using them all over the place. I'm just left to guess at what you're referring to... most of the time, I have no idea.



Again, Fermi's Paradox is nothing more than a thought experiment and 50 years of technological breakthroughs does nothing to bridge the gap between great distances.

The thing is, you're asking the right questions. You're just not taking them seriously.

If you don't like the word "billions", shrink it.
The Milky Way Galaxy is only 100,000 Light Years across. What's a few decades over the course of 100,000 years?
(*Hint: It's still minuscule)



Admitting that intelligent life is rare to find is a no-brainer given our current capacity for knowledge of the subject. So far as we can tell, we're the only game in town, right? We agree on that because it's apparent.

But intelligent life being apparently rare does not discount the ability of simple biological processes to have occurred any countless number of times in any countless number of places, given what we know about Biology in general. Nor does it negate the possibility of intelligent life to begin with...

Look, we don't even know what all is contained in our own Solar System. To make wide-ranging claims about the rest of the UNIVERSE premature, at best, don't you think?



I understand what your faith is - but you have to recognize that quoting the Bible does not constitute evidence for anything in a conversation like this. It's evidence for what you believe, certainly. And it gives insight into your interpretation and, I would guess, your denomination even. But it's not substantiating on any other level.



So replace the football with a baseball or a basketball - it all the same thing.

Also, you're right - I don't believe in the sci-fi from Star Wars...
There are lots of logical and mathematical problems that are created with the "studies" which say that a warp drive is even a theoretical possibility. There's a fine line between guiding vision and pipe-dream. You know what I mean?

I'm just as much a fan of Sci-Fi as the next guy - but when dealing with issues that exist in the present, I prefer factual studies over the fanstasies of fiction writers.

It's not just me who thinks the distances aren't vast, but SETI scientists and Elon Musk. Or to put it another way, are you saying that we cannot become multiplanetary before the extinction event? I don't think we can become multiplanetary and that the Earth will cease to exist as it is now before we can. (We probably disagree over the extinction event, so will leave that out of the discussion.)

"A lot of folks have given this thought. The first thing they note is that the Fermi Paradox is a remarkably strong argument. You can quibble about the speed of alien spacecraft, and whether they can move at 1 percent of the speed of light or 10 percent of the speed of light. It doesn't matter. You can argue about how long it would take for a new star colony to spawn colonies of its own. It still doesn't matter. Any halfway reasonable assumption about how fast colonization could take place still ends up with time scales that are profoundly shorter than the age of the Galaxy. It's like having a heated discussion about whether Spanish ships of the 16th century could heave along at two knots or twenty. Either way they could speedily colonize the Americas."

Musk wonders if aliens already are on Earth.

"He predicted through “back-of-an-envelope calculations” that another advanced civilization in the Milky Way only interested in interstellar travel could develop the ability to travel at around ten percent the speed of light and populate the entire galaxy in just about ten million years or so.

That’s a long-*** time, but it’s the equivalent of days or a week or two in the context of the age of the universe. An intelligent species would almost certainly be interested in traveling to other worlds and venturing beyond its home planet.

That is exactly what Musk has in mind for humans, given SpaceX’s ultimate ambition of turning the human race into an interplanetary species. “We’re all going to die someday,” he told the audience, “and if you’re going to pick some place to die, then why not Mars? If we are born on Earth, why not die on Mars? Seems like maybe it’d be quite exciting.”"

Discussion from video I posted in
SpaceX CEO Elon Musk Says Maybe Aliens Live Among Us, Says He’s Not One | Inverse

 

[james bond]

Ahhhh....the boundless infinity of having no container in which the Cosmos rests.
That would mean that there wasn't any original singularity, wouldn't it ?
Or maybe the void, into which everything dissapears, isn't a true reality.
And.....that leads right back to where are those Aliens ?
Those that escaped the boundless void.
Silly isn't it.....but so are any gods !

Singularity would not exist in the physical world having INFINITE temperature and density. The infinite or division by zero is impossible in the physical world unless there is a creator.

 

[james bond]

The difference is that I *do* understand special and general relativity. I have also read some papers from Humphreys, as opposed to the popularized stuff in videos. What Humphreys doesn't mention is that to get the time dilation would require a density of mass so large that anything on the Earth would be crushed by the gravitational field. So that simply doesn't work if you want there to be life on Earth in the first 6 days.

It should also be pointed out that he does NOT give an actual solution to Einstein's field equations, but instead adds velocity as a separate dimension (thereby completely negating it as velocity, which is distance divided by time, both of which are other dimensions). So, he uses bad physics, bad math, and generally bad reasoning to force his conclusions based on Biblical statements (as he himself admits).

And, let's face it, he doesn't deal with things like the cosmic background radiation (which would not be generated in his model at all).

Finally, in the video, at time 14:00 or so, he claims that there is evidence of a rotating universe. This has since been debunked, so the whole thing is out of date at that point.



I'm going to assume that is simply a joke. Why aliens would care about an itinerant preacher from 2000 years ago is beyond me.

Again, you're bound by atheist science and disregard God's wisdom. While what you say is true about earth disintegrating on the first day is true, God knew and took care that it didn't. How he was able to do so is still unknown. We do not know about gravity well enough to understand. Do gravitons exist? I don't think the last experiment with LHC showed that it did exist, but that it may not. Was there a definite conclusion?

There are two Bible verses about gravity. First, Colossians 1:17 explains that Christ is before all things, and by Him all things consist. Consist (sunistano) means to cohere, preserve, or hold together in Greek. I think back then they used word pictures for sunistano as a vessel holding water within itself. It describes a present continuing state arising from past action. It also implies permanence in the act of the holding the universe together. This is gravity in the Bible.

How about writing Humphreys with your scenarios? He may provide more food for discussion.

 

[Polymath257]

Again, you're bound by atheist science and disregard God's wisdom. While what you say is true about earth disintegrating on the first day is true, God knew and took care that it didn't. How he was able to do so is still unknown. We do not know about gravity well enough to understand. Do gravitons exist? I don't think the last experiment with LHC showed that it did exist, but that it may not. Was there a definite conclusion?

The LHC wasn't designed to test for gravitons. And a detection of such is not expected at the energy levels we can currently produce. So no, no conclusion concerning their existence has been made.

There are two Bible verses about gravity. First, Colossians 1:17 explains that Christ is before all things, and by Him all things consist. Consist (sunistano) means to cohere, preserve, or hold together in Greek. I think back then they used word pictures for sunistano as a vessel holding water within itself. It describes a present continuing state arising from past action. It also implies permanence in the act of the holding the universe together. This is gravity in the Bible.

How about writing Humphreys with your scenarios? He may provide more food for discussion.

i have no desire to set up a conversation with a crank like him. Your Bible references are simply useless. But then, so is the Bible when attempting to do science.

 

[`mud]

hey Mr. Bond,
Re: the singularity existing without temperature, where were the photons ?
Singularity means `alone`, and the absolute `void` equals one devided by zero.
Where was this great big creator that you speak of, except inside the singularity.
hey James, now and then you make sense, but not this time.
Maybe this thought of yours makes sense to some believers, but I really doubt it.

 

[james bond]

The LHC wasn't designed to test for gravitons. And a detection of such is not expected at the energy levels we can currently produce. So no, no conclusion concerning their existence has been made.



i have no desire to set up a conversation with a crank like him. Your Bible references are simply useless. But then, so is the Bible when attempting to do science.

Too bad. One of things Humphreys discussed was the shape of the universe. What do you think it is? I have my thoughts and think Humphreys is spot on with his analysis because the Bible says it is so.

 

[Polymath257]

Too bad. One of things Humphreys discussed was the shape of the universe. What do you think it is? I have my thoughts and think Humphreys is spot on with his analysis because the Bible says it is so.

Current evidence, from both observation of galaxies and the cosmic background radiation, is that space is flat, which likely makes it infinite in extent (although finite is possible given our uncertainties of measurement).

Sorry, but 'the Bible says it is so' isn't exactly reliable scientific method. It has failed many times.

 

[Shad]

Elementary, my dear Watson. Any civilization with people who believe in Jesus Christ is worth contacting.

 

[Polymath257]

"He predicted through “back-of-an-envelope calculations” that another advanced civilization in the Milky Way only interested in interstellar travel could develop the ability to travel at around ten percent the speed of light and populate the entire galaxy in just about ten million years or so.

And I call *complete* BS concerning that. First of all, it represents an average rate of expansion of about 1% of the speed of light (the galaxy is about 100,000 light years across). There are *many* reasons to think that is highly unlikely.

1. Currently, our fastest space probes travel at about1/10% of the speed of light. So, even if we could populate the galaxy at a consistent rate of the speed of our probes, it would take 10x longer than this prediction. Faster probes take *much* more energy to launch (each factor of 2 increase of speed requires 4 times as much energy) and resources.

2. It actually takes time to populate a planet. In fact, it would be unreasonable to assume that more than a small amount of time and energy is devoted to actually moving between systems as opposed to figuring out how to live in the systems themselves. Let's face it, a newly colonized planet isn't going to be sending out new colonies immediately. What is the delay between the start of colonization of a planet and when the spread to the next planet occurs? How does that compare to the time it takes to get between planets? It's clear most of the time is going to be spent on planets as opposed to moving between them. That increases the time it takes to spread significantly.

3. Where do the resources come from? Considering what it takes to even start contemplating moving people between planets in *our* solar system, the complexity and risk of moving between systems is thousands of times greater. Considering that most planets and societies will work from a position of limited resources, how much will the economies be devoted to populating the galaxy? Don't forget, this has to be maintained not just through the trip to the new planet, but all resources for colonization have to be either sent (expensive) or developed at the new site (risky and time consuming). Especially for the first several generations on each new planet, the focus is going to be on survival. It won't be for centuries before any new planet is ready to bounce back into space. That again reduces the average speed of moving out into the galaxy.

4. Size of the spaceships. In addition to the energy factors above related to speed, there is also an energy factor regarding size. If you want to send any significant size of population between star systems, the journey will either take thousands of years for those internal to the craft, OR you will have to push to relativistic speeds, which greatly increases the energy expenditure. For example, to get to 86% of the speed of light requires the equivalent amount of energy as in the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima *for each gram of cargo*. Again, the sheer economic factors mean that actual colonization is very unlikely.

So, no, I don't agree with predictions along these lines. They are very much 'back of the envelope' calculations and NOT reasonable because of many obvious factors.

Finally, this is ALL assuming that this species of aliens *lasts* 10 million years. Considering that humans have been around about 150,000 and seem to be about to destroy ourselves after a mere 100 years of radio, why would you assume that such long-lived species are typical?

 

[james bond]

Current evidence, from both observation of galaxies and the cosmic background radiation, is that space is flat, which likely makes it infinite in extent (although finite is possible given our uncertainties of measurement).

Sorry, but 'the Bible says it is so' isn't exactly reliable scientific method. It has failed many times.

The Bible hasn't failed. Only to atheist scientists who are usually wrong.

Yes, the universe is flat. Science backs up the Bible as it says it is flat and can be rolled up like a scroll. "And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll." Isaiah 34:4. This is contrary to what we observe as we see the universe as thick having width, length and height. What it really means is the space (spacetime?) that holds the stars and other planets is thin.

Creation science hypothesizes that the universe being able to be rolled up means there is another dimension we cannot see for it to be rolled up. It means there is something above the flatness such as another dimension and why I was asking if gravitons were found.

The graviton is escaping to another dimension above the membrane of space. I think we would see it appear and then disappear in the LHC experiment.

Prior to this finding, science backed up the Bible when the universe was found to be expanding and the material of space is like a stretchable fabric under tension. God “stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.”

 

[james bond]

Do I sense that aliens from outer space believe in `Jesus` as Christians do ??
Bond said:"... Any civilization with people who believe in Jesus Christ is worth contacting."
Aleins believe in Jesus do they ? I'm becoming confused at this statement !

You missed the context. Aliens do not exist because God didn't create them. If they did exist, then we would probably monitor them first, as they would us. If we monitored them and we discovered they believed in Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they would be worth contacting. Polymath said the aliens, IF they existed, would not be worth contacting.

hey Mr. Bond,
Re: the singularity existing without temperature, where were the photons ?
Singularity means `alone`, and the absolute `void` equals one devided by zero.
Where was this great big creator that you speak of, except inside the singularity.
hey James, now and then you make sense, but not this time.
Maybe this thought of yours makes sense to some believers, but I really doubt it.

Where were the photons? They were in the white hole, the opposite of a black hole, waiting to be expelled. Did you miss that from Humphreys? That said, I can't exactly show that a white hole exists as it has not been observed like black holes. I suppose it's like the argument that all holes in space are black until we find one that is white and acts opposite to what a black hole does. Moreover, atheist scientists believe in a wormhole and think that it's connected to a black hole and the other side could be a white hole. I think they state this wormhole is the singularity.