Where in the Qur'an does it say to hurt/kill nonMuslims?

[JerryL]

As mentioned before, the truth is quite the opposite. Islam supports a religious tolerance seldom seen in the texts of other religions. Actually, the Koran only promotes war when defending against attackers.

Again I must disagree. It seems a very clear decree to kill allies who have not attacked you nor slain your enemies.

But they're not the only ones, Christians haven't acted so well either, when considering history.

Absolutely. The Bible, particularly the OT, is a pretty violent book.

Every religion screws up somewhere, and it kinda drags the whole religion down with it, creating stereotypes that aren't anywhere near the truth.

I think the Daoists have only had one religious war in history. That's a pretty good record.

 

[Popeyesays]

Again I must disagree. It seems a very clear decree to kill allies who have not attacked you nor slain your enemies..

Then its a good thing the Qur'an doesn't say that.

Absolutely. The Bible, particularly the OT, is a pretty violent book..

So you condemn equally Jews and Christians?

I think the Daoists have only had one religious war in history. That's a pretty good record.

The Daoists recognize the independent nature of politics and how politics causes war.

Regards,
Scott

 

[JerryL]

Then its a good thing the Qur'an doesn't say that.

Of oucrse it does, Surah 9

So you condemn equally Jews and Christians?

I wasn't aware I had condemned anyone

The Daoists recognize the independent nature of politics and how politics causes war.

It's also a philosophy that finds war rather antithetical... a "religion of peace". I'm surprised they even had one.

 

[Popeyesays]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryL

Absolutely. The Bible, particularly the OT, is a pretty violent book..



And I asked: "So you condemn equally Jews and Christians?"
And you answered: "I wasn't aware I had condemned anyone"

And I ask how is your original statement not a condemnation?

I tend to get amused by evangelical aetheists.

Regards,
Scott

 

[JerryL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryL

Absolutely. The Bible, particularly the OT, is a pretty violent book..



And I asked: "So you condemn equally Jews and Christians?"
And you answered: "I wasn't aware I had condemned anyone"

And I ask how is your original statement not a condemnation?

You ask how my statement that the BIble is a violent book is not a condmnation of Muslims?

Because it doesn't mention muslims.

You ask how it's not a condemnation of Christians or Jews? I didn't mention either of them either.

Unless you are asserting the Bible is a "one" instead of a "thing"; I'm not aware that I've condemned anyone.

I tend to get amused by evangelical aetheists.

wouldn't know, never met one.

 

[TashaN]

Dear Popey,

Allah said in The Holy Quran:

[7:199] You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

I already explained Surah 9 in details in post # 207 and there was nothing wrong with it but he totally ignored it and kept going in his irrational arguments with others.

just disregard the ignorant.

 

[JerryL]

I already explained Surah 9 in detail and there was nothing wrong with it but "The Truth" totally ignored it and kept going in his irrational arguments with others.

 

[Popeyesays]

You ask how my statement that the BIble is a violent book is not a condmnation of Muslims?

Because it doesn't mention muslims.

You ask how it's not a condemnation of Christians or Jews? I didn't mention either of them either.

Unless you are asserting the Bible is a "one" instead of a "thing"; I'm not aware that I've condemned anyone.

wouldn't know, never met one.

A: You mentioned that the Bible - particularly the Old Testament - was a violent book.
I asked do you condemn Jews and Christians equally. I never mentioned Muslims in that statement - you did, which, I think shows your bigotry and obsession.

Yes, my brother Truth says I should ignore the ignorant, and I should. There is an old Arabic proverb: "In the night the caravan passes, and the little dog yaps." Jerry, you've let us know the caravan has passed you by.

Regards,
Scott

 

[JerryL]

A: You mentioned that the Bible - particularly the Old Testament - was a violent book.
I asked do you condemn Jews and Christians equally. I never mentioned Muslims in that statement - you did, which, I think shows your bigotry and obsession.

Actually you mentioned my "original statement". I was not certain if you were referring to the statement you quoted or my actual original statement, which was about the Quran (and I assumed you'd therefore be referring to Muslims). Rather than guess, I simply answered both.

Your readyness to mistake a through response with a slanderous claim of bigotry shows your own bias far more than it says anything about mine.

Now, about your accusation that I've issued a condemnation on Jews/Christians; would you care to substantiate your claim that I condemned either, or are you only interested in this red-herring that should really be reported as an ad hominym?

Yes, my brother Truth says I should ignore the ignorant, and I should. There is an old Arabic proverb: "In the night the caravan passes, and the little dog yaps." Jerry, you've let us know the caravan has passed you by.

It's nice that there's a Quranic passage that describes you so well. I'm sorry that you missed the caravan.

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually you mentioned my "original statement". I was not certain if you were referring to the statement you quoted or my actual original statement, which was about the Quran (and I assumed you'd therefore be referring to Muslims). Rather than guess, I simply answered both.

Your readyness to mistake a through response with a slanderous claim of bigotry shows your own bias far more than it says anything about mine.

Now, about your accusation that I've issued a condemnation on Jews/Christians; would you care to substantiate your claim that I condemned either, or are you only interested in this red-herring that should really be reported as an ad hominym?

It's nice that there's a Quranic passage that describes you so well. I'm sorry that you missed the caravan.

Actually, you remind me of a seven-year-old on the playground saying to his opponent: "I know you are, but what am I?"
Keep yappin'.

Regards,
Scott

 

[JerryL]

Actually, you remind me of a seven-year-old on the playground saying to his opponent: "I know you are, but what am I?"
Keep yappin'.

You are full of self-descriptors aren't you? Do go on.

 

[jamaesi]

Could we stick to debating the Qur'an, please?

 

[TashaN]

Could we stick to debating the Qur'an, please?

If you have another topic so please start another thread about it because i think we already done about this and nothing more can be told about it except repeating things.

 

[jamaesi]

If you have another topic so please start another thread about it because i think we already done about this and nothing more can be told about it except repeating things.

No, this was degrading into name-calling, which is the last thing we need.

 

[Popeyesays]

Could we stick to debating the Qur'an, please?

This thread stopped debating the Qur'an a long time, unfortunately. One person has pushed his argument past all support and is left with nothing to do but jeer.

The Qur'an allows war and defines what makes a "just" war under the rules of Islam. The old testament makes no effort to do that, the new testament only says "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's", in personal conduct it says to turn the other cheek. Nations however, do not have cheeks to turn.

"Verily, those who believe, and those who flee, and those who wage war in God's way; these may hope for God's mercy, for God is forgiving and merciful."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"Whenever they light a fire for war, God puts it out; they strive for corruption in the earth, but God loves not the corrupt.
But did the people of the Book believe and fear, we would cover their offences, and we would make them enter into gardens of pleasure; and were they steadfast in the law and the gospel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they should eat from above them and below them. Amongst them are a nation who are moderate, but many of them- bad is what they do."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

"Verily, the worst of beasts in God's eyes are those who misbelieve and will not believe; with whom if thou dost make a league, they break their league each time, for they fear not God; but shouldst thou ever catch them in war, then make those who come after them run by their example, haply they may remember then."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 8 - The Spoils)

My own faith says about killing:
"Sedition hath never been pleasing unto God, nor were the acts committed in the past by certain foolish ones acceptable in His sight. Know ye that to be killed in the path of His good pleasure is better for you than to kill. The beloved of the Lord must, in this day, behave in such wise amidst His servants that they may by their very deeds and actions guide all men unto the paradise of the All-Glorious."
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 110)

In my faith which rose from Islam, war is abhorrent, but under certain circumstances war can still be just - if one nation is invaded, all other nations should come to the aid of the offended nation.
"CXII. Behold the disturbances which, for many a long year, have afflicted the earth, and the perturbation that hath seized its peoples. It hath either been ravaged by war, or tormented by sudden and unforeseen calamities. Though the world is encompassed with misery and distress, yet no man hath paused to reflect what the cause or source of that may be. Whenever the True Counsellor uttered a word in admonishment, lo, they all denounced Him as a mover of mischief and rejected His claim. How bewildering, how confusing is such behavior! No two men can be found who may be said to be outwardly and inwardly united. The evidences of discord and malice are apparent everywhere, though all were made for harmony and union. The Great Being saith: O well-beloved ones! The tabernacle of unity hath been raised; regard ye not one another as strangers. Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. We cherish the hope that the light of justice may shine upon the world and sanctify it from tyranny. If the rulers and kings of the earth, the symbols of the power of God, exalted be His glory, arise and resolve to dedicate themselves to whatever will promote the highest interests of the whole of humanity, the reign of justice will assuredly be established 219 amongst the children of men, and the effulgence of its light will envelop the whole earth. The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment.... In another passage He hath written: Take heed, O concourse of the rulers of the world! There is no force on earth that can equal in its conquering power the force of justice and wisdom.... Blessed is the king who marcheth with the ensign of wisdom unfurled before him, and the battalions of justice massed in his rear. He verily is the ornament that adorneth the brow of peace and the countenance of security. There can be no doubt whatever that if the day star of justice, which the clouds of tyranny have obscured, were to shed its light upon men, the face of the earth would be completely transformed."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 218)

Regards,
Scott

 

[JerryL]

Indeed, someone did push their argument past all support. They ignored a clearly described command in Sura 9.

They could have argued a limitied scope interms of which infidels, as one of the non-Muslims suggested; but they were so obsessed with trying to convince others that there are no commands for non-retaliatory warfare in the Quran that they completely ignored what it said.

 

[Muhhamad Abdul Salam]

Every time I read through the Quran (Koran) I look for verses that would say "destroy everyone except yourselves." I couldn't find anytyhing either. Interestingly enough, I had a Jewish woman explain to me that Islam is an extremely peaceful dedicated religion, much like that of the Mormons. My Christian Humanities teacher told my class that he's going to explain where in the Koran it incites violence... i think i may ask him to take a look at the Bible as well... in most religous texts there explain wars and why they happen, not to mention which side God (god) was on!? I mean... i dont honestly think God, would want people to die no matter their belief... right? So far, I've only seen the good in Islam. It is truly a beautiful religion. Extremists can be found anywhere.

Thats beutiful to hear; a Christian making peace with Islam through a Jewish woman's explenation, odd but inspiring none the less. Good luck in youre Christian Humanities class and salam.