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Where in the Qur'an does it say to hurt/kill nonMuslims?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jaymes, Nov 24, 2005.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Hitler was a Christian, the Holocaust was sixty years ago. How much evolution in sixty years? Pat Robertson would gladly wade through other people's blood to see Christianity vanquish the foes he, himself has created. He's still on TV today.

    Judaism still has its killers in the name of God, even though it was the victim of genocide.

    The point is that any religion can be fanned for a zealot flame. It is the individual leaders who look for power by fomenting hate who are the criminals, moral and legal. But they do so with the express knowledge that they are twisting the faith of others for political purposes. That is reprehensible, and the victims of that sin are the terrorists as well as the victims of the acts of terror.

    Don't blame, Muhammed for the crimes of binLaden.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    You said it yourself- extremists. I even bolded it.

    Extremists of any religion do not follow their holy book.

    And you say civilized- are those nations civilized? They are third world countries in developing areas.


    But of course, killing those who leave the faith (and by stoning at that!) is not exclusive to the Qur'an. Deuteronomy 13:6-9, Deuteronomy 17:3-5, 2 Chronicles 15:13, and Romans 1:20-32 all say the same- they deserve death- and if you think Fred Phelps or good old Pat wouldn't follow them if given half the chance you're kidding yourself.
     
  3. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    What's more, what if we started talking about some primitive culture that still enforced execution?
     
  4. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Like the United States?
     
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  5. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    that's crap :149:

    I lived in Saudi Arabia for a while and i never see or heard that they have stoned any.
     
  6. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    It happens in Africa now with some sort of frequency... but that is Africa. It's sort of hard to compare Africa with a developed nation.


    But hello my good friend AI.

    http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-sau/index

    Saudi, and all other repressive goverments, aren't exactly the shining light of human rights or good followers of the Qur'an, though.



    By ignorant people then, because these are carried out by governments who have strayed far from the message of Islam.
     
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  7. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I believe that there is no country in the whole world which we can call thier law islamic 100% even though Saudi Arabia try to be so but none is perfect and all are just human beings and we can't forget the affect of the culture in twisting the religion for personal interest.



    I agree :)
     
  8. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Er. I believe Saudi Arabia stopped trying long ago.
    And even then, I'm a firm believer in the seperation of religion and government- but a true and modern Islamic government (because I think it will be quite some time before a secular government would stick) would be far better than the mess Saudi is now.

    But about the culture, yes, I completely agree with that. Some just can't seem to realise that a lot of what goes on there in the Middle East is completely against the Qur'an and not Islamic at all in nature, but culture.
     
  9. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying that the honest man is not neccessairily the better president. It's not the intent as much as the result.

    Would you support a truth that killed millions over a lie that brought world peace?

    Or, we could take these into account in looking at the broadrer picture.

    You see the same thing in economic ideologies. Communism, for example, is a utopian ideal on paper; but it doesn't actually work. Therefore it's a bad system.

    Let's look at the examples you'e brought up... the crusades, the holocaust, the anti-intellectual purging from Pol Pot. The commonality here is one of fundamental ideology and totalitarianism.

    A true and fair point. We must look at two things, the actions of the originators (Muhammed conqured Arabia by force of arms) and the general tennor of what followed.

    We cannot look solely at Bin Lauden. That would be applying a very small sample-set. We must look at a much more broad picture. The history of Islam in the world. The actions in the MIddle East, and North Africa, and Indonesia, and Central Asia, over the past 1500 years.

    So your defense is "other religions are brutal too"?

    I'm curious. What modern Christian nation is executing people for converting? What modern Jewesh nation?

    I think the better defense was questioning whether it actually happens. I'm not aware that Saudi Arabia has any such law.

    Africa is engaged in ethnic and religious genocide. While we can look at that in the large context (above), it does not establish it as indicitive of the religion... it's too small an area.

    If, in fact, this does not happen in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc; it would be contra-indicated.

    We are back to inefficacy and the proof being in the pudding.
     
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  10. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Okay, good to see you ignored the line right above that.

    And you say civilized- are those nations civilized? They are third world countries in developing areas.
     
  11. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    I did not ignore it. That seemd to be part of a different comment. You were asserting that Saudi-Arabia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and other unnamed countries were uncivilized; this seemed very seperate from your claim that religions other than Islam preach such behavior. I must confess I still don't see how these two connect, but I certainly did not intend to seperate them if they do.

    But let's address your previous quote. If Saudi-Arabia is not civilized; I must ask what Muslim country is. Saudi has been under Muslim control since the time of Muhammed. Do you think that Islam prevents civilization?
     
  12. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    No, Islam is pretty in favour of it.

    I can't say the same for it's "followers."
     
  13. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. Do you think Muslims are anti-civilized? Or can you think of some civilized Muslim countries to point at?
     
  14. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    I'm having trouble of thinking of ANY religion-run government that was civilised. This is like looking at Bloody Mary and saying Christianity hates peace. As a Muslimish person who knows many many Muslims- many of them currently living in or from a Muslim country, I can we're a all a pretty peaceful folk. But the same is true for most religions- you have a fringe element that manages to snag the power and screw the rest of us over.

    I was also thinking about why so much of the Middle East, Africa, and Central and South America are third world nations and "backwards" and the two things I could think of that they all had in common were being too darn hot (Brasil summer is killing me) and European imperalism. Hm.
     
  15. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Decolinization did a great deal of harm, no doubt there; although some of these places (arabia for example) have histories going much farther back than that.

    I do also agree with your inference that theocracies are a bad idea... that as a system of government it's prone to such behavior.
     
  16. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Well. I'm not even close to being completely knowledgable about imperalism and colonization, but from talking to (Brasilian) people about the history of Brasil it wasn't the decolonization that did us in, it was the colonization and the fact the Portuguese took the wealth of Brasil (it's gold) and ran off to leave us with well, dirt.

    Well, it's sort of unfair to single Islam out as a "violent" religion (as many seem to do) and point at Islamic governments as "proof"- especially when you can point at other religions that controled the government with the same violence.
     
  17. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Do you agree that colonization had no effect a melennia before it happened?

    Good thing I didn't do that then huh?

    Mind you, there were some governmental references in there (for example, the one Muhammed ran); but mostly I've cited the quranic passage and then how Muslims et al have acted... the high support within the middle-east for Bin Lauden, for example.
     
  18. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Where are you going with this?

    :) I know, I included the many part to keep people from thinking that.
     
  19. finalfrogo

    finalfrogo Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned before, the truth is quite the opposite. Islam supports a religious tolerance seldom seen in the texts of other religions. Actually, the Koran only promotes war when defending against attackers. However, this portion has become somewhat twisted to justify the wars that Muslim leaders have waged against others. They're simply "Bad Muslims"

    But they're not the only ones, Christians haven't acted so well either, when considering history. For example: The Crusades, The Inquisition. Every religion screws up somewhere, and it kinda drags the whole religion down with it, creating stereotypes that aren't anywhere near the truth.
     
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  20. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Simply that, even without a through knowledge of the effects of colonialization and decolonialization, we can agree that they had no effect a melennia before they happened. So if we look back at (say) 500AD, we don't have to worry about them.
     
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