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Where in the Qur'an does it say to hurt/kill nonMuslims?

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
I've repeatedly heard this from various people, but never seen anyone cite a part of the Qur'an for it. I'm not exactly studied on Islam, but from what I've read these parts of the Qur'an are just being twisted and horribly translated (similar to some Bible verses; 'bash thy little ones upon the rocks', anyone?).

Enlighten me?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The Qur'an does not allow force to be used to compell religion, in fact Muhammed specifically forbids it in the Qur'an.

"There is no compulsion in religion; the right way has been distinguished from the wrong, and whoso disbelieves in Taghut and believes in God, he has got hold of the firm handle in which is no breaking off; but God both hears and knows.
God is the patron of those who believe, He brings them forth from darkness into light. But those who misbelieve, their patrons are Taghut, these bring them forth from light to darkness,- fellows of the Fire, they dwell therein for aye."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)



Muhammed describes the concept of "Treaty" in the Qur'an, and explains that if a treaty can be arrived at with "unbelievers" then muslims may not in any wise break that agreement. But if the other parties (unbelievers) DO break that treaty and engage in fighting or killing THEN the muslim parties to the treaty should fight hard UNTIL the breakers of that treaty repent, and swear to follow the treaty again.
"55 Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
56 Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not duty (to Allah).
57 If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.
58 And if thou fearest treachery from any folk, then throw back to them (their treaty) fairly. Lo! Allah loveth not the treacherous.
59 And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
60 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
61 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
62 And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,
63 And (as for the believers) hath attuned their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth thou couldst not have attuned their hearts, but Allah hath attuned them. Lo! He is Mighty, Wise.
64 O Prophet! Allah is Sufficient for thee and those who follow thee of the believers.
65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
66 Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast."
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 8 - The Spoils Of War)
"12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
13 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first ? What! Fear ye them ? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers"
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)
"If two bodies of the faithful are at war, then make ye peace between
them: and if the one of them wrong the other, fight against that part which
doth the wrong, until they come back to the precepts of God: if they come back,
make peace between them with fairness, and act impartially; God loveth those
who act with impartiality."
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 49 - The Apartments)

The English language does not handle the concept of "Jihad" well. Under the instructions of Muhammed a muslim may not fight righteous war if he fights as an agressor, only war in defense of the faith and nation is righteous war,

Jihad does not mean "war", or even "Holy War". It simply means "struggle". There can be struggles which have nothing to do with the physical at all. Indeed the Greatest Jihad is the struggle within oneself to submit to the will of God. After all, "al-Islam" means "the Submission (to the will of God)" and that is entirely within one's own self.

"Surah 90
Al Balad (The City)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. I do call to witness this City --
2. And thou art a freeman of this City --
3. And (the mystic ties of) Parent and Child --
4. Verily We have created Man into toil and struggle.
5. Thinketh he, that none hath power over him?
6. He may say (boastfully): "Wealth have I squandered in abundance!"
7. Thinketh he that none beholdeth him?
8. Have We not made for him a pair of eyes? --
9. And a tongue, and a pair of lips? --
10. And shown him the two highways?
11. But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.
12. And what will explain to thee the path that is steep? --
13. (It is:) freeing the bondman;
14. Or the giving of food in a day of privation
15. To the orphan with claims of relationship,
16. Or to the indigent (down) in the dust.
17. Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion.
18. Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
19. But those who reject Our Signs, they are the (unhappy) companions of the Left Hand.
20. On them will be Fire Vaulted over (all round)."

Regards,
Scott
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
Here is where the Qur'an and Hadith says to hurt and kill nonMuslims.

002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Um, here!
[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."
Er...
[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."
This has got to be it...
[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."
Er, wait. Maybe here.
* Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should not harm his neighbor. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet.
o Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 47
Wait, no. This is it!
Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers.
-Final Sermon of Muhammed
Hold on, this has to be it.
7:199
You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

Oh, goshdurnit, I just can't seem to find where the Qur'an or Muhammed (pbuh) tells us to go out and slaughter nonMuslims for the heck of it.

The Qur'an does tell us that we are allowed to fight back when being oppressed or our lives threatened (like sane groups of people who defend themselves)- but no innocents, women, or children are to be hurt.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term.

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Thou hadst no hope that the Scripture would be inspired in thee; but it is a mercy from thy Lord, so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
JerryL said:

Put the verses in their context and dont' taking them out of it to mislead readers. God never order us to wrong or fight other without being fighted. We are given the right to fight if others started fighting us or taking our rights. The verses mentioned have been already discussed and explained within their context. So read the whole chapter and not just one verse in order to well understand. Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Peace said:
Put the verses in their context and dont' taking them out of it to mislead readers. God never order us to wrong or fight other without being fighted. We are given the right to fight if others started fighting us or taking our rights. The verses mentioned have been already discussed and explained within their context. So read the whole chapter and not just one verse in order to well understand. Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance.
I did read teh whole chapters for several of those. I was particular in which refernces I reprinted here.

It's extremely suspicious that you assert that the context changes the meaning but did not expound by actually showing that to be true on the ones I quoted. Don't make assertions, make actual arguments.

Section 9, from the beginning.
9.1 You don't have to follow the treaties you made with non-Muslims.
9.3 Tell them you are free from treaties and they will be doomed if they do not convert.
9.4 On second thought, keep alliances with non-Muslims who have been true to them.
9.5 Until the alliance expires. Then, even though they've done nothig to you, kill them all.
9.6 If he converts, spare him.

Here's two translations http://www.soundvision.com/info/~quran/sura_compare.asp?sura=009
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
JerryL, I need to commend you for using the worst possible and most twisted translations of the Qur'an.
:banghead3

However, Peace has already established that you have taken most of those way out of context- and I will now point out from a very wrong translation context at that.


Here are three translations of al-Tawba.

009.001
YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

009.002
YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

009.003
YUSUFALI: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
SHAKIR: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.006
YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

009.007
YUSUFALI: How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
PICKTHAL: How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
SHAKIR: How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.008
YUSUFALI: How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
PICKTHAL: How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
SHAKIR: How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

009.009
YUSUFALI: The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
PICKTHAL: They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
SHAKIR: They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do.

009.010
YUSUFALI: In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
PICKTHAL: And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
SHAKIR: They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits.

009.011
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
PICKTHAL: But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
SHAKIR: But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

009.012
YUSUFALI: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
PICKTHAL: And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
SHAKIR: And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

009.013
YUSUFALI: Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
PICKTHAL: Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers
SHAKIR: What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
PICKTHAL: Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
SHAKIR: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

009.015
YUSUFALI: And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
PICKTHAL: And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And remove the rage of their hearts; and Allah turns (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

009.016
YUSUFALI: Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
PICKTHAL: Or deemed ye that ye would be left (in peace) when Allah yet knoweth not those of you who strive, choosing for familiar none save Allah and His messenger and the believers? Allah is Informed of what ye do.
SHAKIR: What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet known those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken any one as an adherent besides Allah and His Messenger and the believers; and Allah is aware of what you do.
These Pagans the Qur'an talks about aren't exactly the most tolerant and wonderful bunch- they used to bury their female children alive just because of their gender. : P

Also- when the Qur'an talks about believers, it means Muslims, Jews, Christians, Gnostics, and perhaps (according to some scholars) anyone who has a strong moral code they follow and who do good (that can be extended to people like Buddhists and the like).
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Good post Jamaesi; I have been through the Qu'ran to find anything relating to instructions that Muslims should hurt/Kill Non Muslims, and found no evidence of that.

As you have said, the only passages I found were those that said that killing whilst defending the faith, or Mosques was permitted.:)
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Every time I read through the Quran (Koran) I look for verses that would say "destroy everyone except yourselves." I couldn't find anytyhing either. Interestingly enough, I had a Jewish woman explain to me that Islam is an extremely peaceful dedicated religion, much like that of the Mormons. My Christian Humanities teacher told my class that he's going to explain where in the Koran it incites violence... i think i may ask him to take a look at the Bible as well... in most religous texts there explain wars and why they happen, not to mention which side God (god) was on!? I mean... i dont honestly think God, would want people to die no matter their belief... right? So far, I've only seen the good in Islam. It is truly a beautiful religion. Extremists can be found anywhere.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
Good post Jamaesi; I have been through the Qu'ran to find anything relating to instructions that Muslims should hurt/Kill Non Muslims, and found no evidence of that.
We are instructed many times to live in peace with everyone (especially People of the Book!) and let G-d do all the judging.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
jamaesi said:
We are instructed many times to live in peace with everyone (especially People of the Book!) and let G-d do all the judging.
Of course, as most religions are.;)
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
Of course, as most religions are.;)
But Islam seems to be singled out and called a violent religion the most (and mostly without basis)- even though the Bible has a lot of violence itself. :/
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
JerryL, I need to commend you for using the worst possible and most twisted translations of the Qur'an.
I used three different versions, two chosen at random and made by Muslims.

Firstly, support your claim that these are the three worst, and then support your inference as to why and how I chose them. Consider this post reported.

These Pagans the Qur'an talks about aren't exactly the most tolerant and wonderful bunch- they used to bury their female children alive just because of their gender.
This is entirely irrellevent. You can't argue "it's not murder because the people are not nice".

Also- when the Qur'an talks about believers, it means Muslims, Jews, Christians, Gnostics, and perhaps (according to some scholars) anyone who has a strong moral code they follow and who do good (that can be extended to people like Buddhists and the like).
Support your claim. Here are some passages on the Quran regarding Allah's opinion of the Jews:

"And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them [the Jews] and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression. " 2:61

"And thou wilt find them [the Jews] greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do. "

The passages preceeding are clear that it's referring to those who were with Moses in the desert, who then changed what Allah had said (correct my if I'm wrong in saying you believe the Jewesh holy texts to be corrupted, an only the quran to be unaltered).

Finally, let's look at your translations:
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Wow, that really changed nothign at all from my quotes. Show me the context that changes this... becuase you certainly have not.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Every time I read through the Quran (Koran) I look for verses that would say "destroy everyone except yourselves." I couldn't find anytyhing either. Interestingly enough, I had a Jewish woman explain to me that Islam is an extremely peaceful dedicated religion, much like that of the Mormons.
I'm assuming that she doesn't live in Isreal.

The Quran, while nowhere near as violent as the OT, is full of disparagement, condemnation, and the occasional call to war. Equally of interest, the marority of the history of Islam has been one of war. I certainly have no desire to single out noe group as representing Islam's violent nature; but I'm hard pressed to find non-violent examples. Certainly the Middle East, Africa, and Indonesia are full of Muslims killing Christians and Jews and one-another on a scale the like of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

My Christian Humanities teacher told my class that he's going to explain where in the Koran it incites violence... i think i may ask him to take a look at the Bible as well... in most religous texts there explain wars and why they happen, not to mention which side God (god) was on!?
Yes, most diestic texts do have that.

I mean... i dont honestly think God, would want people to die no matter their belief... right?
You are welcome to that belief; but it's not supported in the Bible. The Quran, despite less examples of randomly ordered homicide/genocide (the OT is rife), still paints Allah's opinion of non-believers as pretty poor (somthing about being branded while suffering eternal hellfire).

So far, I've only seen the good in Islam. It is truly a beautiful religion. Extremists can be found anywhere.
Yes, extremists can... but by what standard would you care to judge? The actions of the founder? Of the population at large? It seems that the numebr of "extremists" would support that the texts are interpretable that way. We are not discussing a few dozen nuts over a decade or two... We can try to blame regional and cultural factors; but we see such behavior in all of the majority Muslim areas.

Personally, I think faith-based fundamentalism is the flawed bit to begin with.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
I used three different versions, two chosen at random and made by Muslims.

Firstly, support your claim that these are the three worst, and then support your inference as to why and how I chose them. Consider this post reported.
You used the Skeptic´s Annoted Qur'an, for one. The translation on that is terrible and you made sure to pick quotes out of context. You linked to two translations, but used a very poor one in your post. If you read the ones I posted you can see that this is not just for the hell of it, they were being persecuted by the those people.

This is entirely irrellevent. You can't argue "it's not murder because the people are not nice".
That´s not what I am arguing, I was stating these people aren´t exactly being tolerant of Muslims and perscuting them.

But of course, I could take what you said out of context your words too and say that you´re for the murder of little female infants. : P But you said it, this is irrellevent, so let´s stop twisting things.

Support your claim. Here are some passages on the Quran regarding Allah's opinion of the Jews:

"And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them [the Jews] and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression. " 2:61

"And thou wilt find them [the Jews] greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do. "

The passages preceeding are clear that it's referring to those who were with Moses in the desert, who then changed what Allah had said (correct my if I'm wrong in saying you believe the Jewesh holy texts to be corrupted, an only the quran to be unaltered).
He was talking about the Jews in the desert with Moses, that is clear- they weren't exactly the most loyal followers G-d had. We even talked about this in my CHRISTIAN Sunday School when I was younger (does this make the Bible antiSemite then, eh?)- those people, God´s Chosen People- would go off and make Golden Cows while Moses was talking with G-d. It´s hard to support that. The Qur'an also says they were forgiven when they asked for it.


Did you miss this when I posted it?
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The Qur'an calls Jews people of the book and tells us to live in peace. The only critiera needed for salvation in the Qur'an is belief in G-d, belief in the Afterlife, and to live a righteous life. G-d says to befriend and live in peace with the Jews and Christians and everyone else if we are not persecuted.


Wow, that really changed nothign at all from my quotes. Show me the context that changes this... becuase you certainly have not.
Yes it is, what you posted just had those parts, and not these.

How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
It wasn´t unprovoked.

In the first Ayat it talks about immunity. The Arabic word is Baraat- but immunity isn´t really a good translation- there is no real English equilvilant. In history the Muslims and the Arab Pagans regularly made treaties with each other- the Arab pagans broke them whenever it suited them. After a lot of that it was needed to stop those treaties- except for with those who faithfully kept them. Doing one´s duty and fulfilling ones obligations is a huge part of Islam. They were only permitted to fight only if the Arab Pagans kept being decitful. The talk of the fighting the Arab Pagans is so strong because you can´t half-*** a battle or you´ll never get anywhere- but it also says that if they sincerly surrender and try to make amends then we must live in peace with them again.

Banu Hamza and Bani Kinana were two tribes that kept their alliegence to the Muslims- and they were left in peace- the other groups were agressors and delt with- but the whole time it talks of dealing with them it emphasis the fact that if they stop and try to make peace to stop fighting them and make peace.

Also, it´s getting ridiculous to try to condemn people for what people did in the past. Are all Christians to be now hated because of the Crusades? Are all Germans to be hated now because of Hitler´s rule there? In the same way, we do not hate Jews because of when the Jews in the desert disobeyed Moses and G-d. : P


You only posted a few verses that showed only parts that make Islam look violent- this is why I said you were taking it out of context and mistranslating it.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
I'm assuming that she doesn't live in Isreal.
I don´t think anyone lives in Isreal.

However, Israel is a whole other ballgame.

The Quran, while nowhere near as violent as the OT, is full of disparagement, condemnation, and the occasional call to war. Equally of interest, the marority of the history of Islam has been one of war. I certainly have no desire to single out noe group as representing Islam's violent nature; but I'm hard pressed to find non-violent examples. Certainly the Middle East, Africa, and Indonesia are full of Muslims killing Christians and Jews and one-another on a scale the like of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.
So the Crusades and Witch Trials and so on have nothing to do with Christian history?



You are welcome to that belief; but it's not supported in the Bible. The Quran, despite less examples of randomly ordered homicide/genocide (the OT is rife), still paints Allah's opinion of non-believers as pretty poor (somthing about being branded while suffering eternal hellfire).
No, I´ve quoted this about 50 times. As long as you believe in G-d and the afterlife and live a good life you will be saved. The words in Sura 2 also can be translated to anyone with a strong moral code- Buddhists for example. I know of many atheists who have strong moral codes and live good lives.

The Bible condemns all who don´t believe in Christ to hell.

Yes, extremists can... but by what standard would you care to judge? The actions of the founder? Of the population at large? It seems that the numebr of "extremists" would support that the texts are interpretable that way. We are not discussing a few dozen nuts over a decade or two... We can try to blame regional and cultural factors; but we see such behavior in all of the majority Muslim areas.
Having religious nuts isn´t exclusive to Islam- Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are Christian fundementalists who call for violent actions.

Personally, I think faith-based fundamentalism is the flawed bit to begin with.
Muhammed (pbuh) said that religion is not to be forced and fundementalism to be advoided.

Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded.
  • Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 38
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Some things cannot be logically proven but yet cannot be denied without affirmation and therefore establish themselves as truth.
But the other two were not and said substantially the same thing.

That´s not what I am arguing, I was stating these people aren´t exactly being tolerant of Muslims and perscuting them.
That's simply a lie. 9:4 (your translation)
"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. "
Those are the people you are commanded to wait until the treaty is over before you kill. You are orderd to kill people who you have an alliance with who have not failed you nor aided your enemies.

But of course, I could take what you said out of context your words too and say that you´re for the murder of little female infants. : P But you said it, this is irrellevent, so let´s stop twisting things.
That's rhetoric. I've asked you to show me how the context is wrong. The only person who seems to be adding things out of context is you (such as your claim that they were "bad people" and your inference that this made killing them OK).

He was talking about the Jews in the desert with Moses, that is clear- they weren't exactly the most loyal followers G-d had. We even talked about this in my CHRISTIAN Sunday School when I was younger (does this make the Bible antiSemite then, eh?)- those people, God´s Chosen People- would go off and make Golden Cows while Moses was talking with G-d. It´s hard to support that. The Qur'an also says they were forgiven when they asked for it.
It says that they arethe greediest of mankind, and that there is "no means remove him from the doom."

Again, your claims are entirely unsupported by the Quran.

The Qur'an calls Jews people of the book and tells us to live in peace. The only critiera needed for salvation in the Qur'an is belief in G-d, belief in the Afterlife, and to live a righteous life. G-d says to befriend and live in peace with the Jews and Christians and everyone else if we are not persecuted.
Then the Quran has paradoxical claims and conflicts with itself. I'm surprised a work by a single author wuold do that, but it hardly causes me a problem.

It wasn´t unprovoked.
You are discussing the ones who violated their oath. That was not unprovoked. I'm talking about 9:4 and 9:5, which tell you to kill those who have not violated their oaths, nor helped your enemies; but only after your deal has expired.

In the first Ayat it talks about immunity. The Arabic word is Baraat- but immunity isn´t really a good translation- there is no real English equilvilant. In history the Muslims and the Arab Pagans regularly made treaties with each other- the Arab pagans broke them whenever it suited them. After a lot of that it was needed to stop those treaties- except for with those who faithfully kept them. Doing one´s duty and fulfilling ones obligations is a huge part of Islam. They were only permitted to fight only if the Arab Pagans kept being decitful. The talk of the fighting the Arab Pagans is so strong because you can´t half-*** a battle or you´ll never get anywhere- but it also says that if they sincerly surrender and try to make amends then we must live in peace with them again.
No, it says:
"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. "
Of course, having now heard the word of Allah, they know. It seems to allow people to surrender *and convert*.

Also, it´s getting ridiculous to try to condemn people for what people did in the past. Are all Christians to be now hated because of the Crusades? Are all Germans to be hated now because of Hitler´s rule there? In the same way, we do not hate Jews because of when the Jews in the desert disobeyed Moses and G-d. : P
Who said "hate Muslims"? I'm discussing what the Quran says... though one hardly needs to look to the distant past to find poor behavior in the name of Allah.

Banu Hamza and Bani Kinana were two tribes that kept their alliegence to the Muslims- and they were left in peace- the other groups were agressors and delt with- but the whole time it talks of dealing with them it emphasis the fact that if they stop and try to make peace to stop fighting them and make peace.
I'm curious. When someone in the past did something bad and said that the Quran told him to, you called citing it "rediculious"; but here you cite someone in the past doing something good. How is that any different?

You only posted a few verses that showed only parts that make Islam look violent- this is why I said you were taking it out of context and mistranslating it.
I've discussed all of 9. The request made in the original post was for these passages, so I provided them.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
So the Crusades and Witch Trials and so on have nothing to do with Christian history?
They have a great deal to do with Christian history. The fact that the Inquasition was so pervasive, supported even at the highest levels, and carried on into non-Catholic, non-European groups (like Salem) shows a great danger in the text of the OT.

But we all know that the OT is violent, that has nothing to do with the conversation... the discussion is the Quran.

No, I´ve quoted this about 50 times. As long as you believe in G-d and the afterlife and live a good life you will be saved.
And I've quoted more than once that the Quran says you will burn in hell. Perhaps the Quran is simply giving two conflicting claims.

The Bible condemns all who don´t believe in Christ to hell.
Accuratey, it condemns them to "not heaven". What does this have to do with the conversation?

Having religious nuts isn´t exclusive to Islam- Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are Christian fundementalists who call for violent actions.
Of course it isn't. But I didn't say it was, I asked what standard you would use. What does your comment have to do with the conversation?

Muhammed (pbuh) said that religion is not to be forced and fundementalism to be advoided.
He also said to kill the pagans, including the ones who had honored their alliance and not aided your enemies (9:1-6)
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. "
Those are the people you are commanded to wait until the treaty is over before you kill. You are orderd to kill people who you have an alliance with who have not failed you nor aided your enemies.

Did you not read the whole thing I posted? You are not to be go killing them willynilly unless they start it. That´s why I posted the whole verse and notes explaining it. It´s like reading one sentence of an American History textbook and expecting to pass the test on what you know from that one sentence.

This is ridiculous, you zero into one sentence and ignore the rest of them that explain it.


Of course, having now heard the word of Allah, they know. It seems to allow people to surrender *and convert*.
I´m sorry, where does it read convert them. I can listen to things and still not believe them.

I'm curious. When someone in the past did something bad and said that the Quran told him to, you called citing it "rediculious"; but here you cite someone in the past doing something good. How is that any different?
I was clearing up history because you were posted about it.


Who said "hate Muslims"? I'm discussing what the Quran says... though one hardly needs to look to the distant past to find poor behavior in the name of Allah.
There is poor behaviour in the name of very religion. Why single out just one?
 
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