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Where has all the wealth gone?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Typically it trails behind inflation.

But the increase in poverty level does reflect the fact that the income line has increased because of inflation.

Sure. Is your point that you think this offsets the drastic increase of wealth disparity?

The point is it doesn't really reflect actual income because in-kind help is still income.

Its a debunked argument that people are poor because they buy starbucks. Do you have any kind of evidence that suggests the poor simply are outspending a proportional gain of wealth? Fact of the matter is people by in large make far less than they did earlier while the rich make exponentially more than before. The average person in that 50% or below line might have a few hundred dollars of unnecessary money a year. Hell maybe just maybe they might have a thousand.

I don't want to assume any of your arguments but I have heard similar arguments from people who have also said that the millennials are just lazy or poorly equipped. But evidence shows millennials take fewer vacations, work more hours per week on average and are definitively the best educated generation that has ever existed in America. Again I don't know if you take that position and if not feel free to ignore.

I have helped people earning from 16,000/year to 6 figures income. In all cases they were in need and in all cases they had no budget.

So, when someone is earning 30,000 a year and is spending 15% of their income in restaurants and more in cigarettes/beer, they have lost potential to gain wealth, invest in additional income streams and progress forward. They have opted to enrich the bottom line of Starbucks, Anheuser Busch and Phillip Morris.

Do you think that it would make a difference over the years?
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
How do you propose homeless people budget their income so they can buy a home for themselves?
I hear homeless people don't have a job and get free handouts and welfare. Since you don't need a job to receive welfare, they get to live on $40k per year free handouts.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
But the increase in poverty level does reflect the fact that the income line has increased because of inflation.
I don't think we are in contention on this point. Households on average make 30% more but inflation is 102%. That was the main point.
I have helped people earning from 16,000/year to 6 figures income. In all cases they were in need and in all cases they had no budget.

So, when someone is earning 30,000 a year and is spending 15% of their income in restaurants and more in cigarettes/beer, they have lost potential to gain wealth, invest in additional income streams and progress forward. They have opted to enrich the bottom line of Starbucks, Anheuser Busch and Phillip Morris.

Do you think that it would make a difference over the years?
Sure. No one budgets perfectly. But what I'm arguing is that it is laughable to think that the current income gab between the decades isn't a resource management issue on part of the general citizens but rather due to several economic factors that have stagnated wage growth for 90% of people. And that difference is so overwhelmingly significant that all other factors combined x10 doesn't even touch it.

We are at a near all time low for smoking in this country so it seems a non-issue to blame cigarette use. Though I would have to have more specifics on how long it takes a person to go from 30k a year to 100k a year. I would just wager a general guess and say a job change was the major factor. I have significant doubts that your average client simply ate pbj and ramen noodles sober every night for 5 years and now make 70k a year from dividends. So I'm guessing it had something to do with budgeting better and eventually getting training for better jobs that then grant them a better income.

And if that is the case do you think that our current economy is more or less fixed at its current state? And by that I mean do you think that "everyone" could do this and get money or is it only so long as the majority stay in poverty? Can we make the average income in the united states 100k in today's dollars adjusted for inflation? Or will we always have mcdonalds workers, retail workers, ditch diggers, ect. The wealth opportunities are finite in our current system. Yes someone can become rich. But the % of poor people will remain largely the same.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Sure. No one budgets perfectly. But what I'm arguing is that it is laughable to think that the current income gab between the decades isn't a resource management issue on part of the general citizens but rather due to several economic factors that have stagnated wage growth for 90% of people. And that difference is so overwhelmingly significant that all other factors combined x10 doesn't even touch it.

Certainly economic factors have an impact... not disputing that fact.

However, i would still say that budgeting is the main factor! Vision writing is the second most important thing... and circumstances is third.

When I was in need, we made it work with food stamps, WIC coupons, and government cheese, canned pork and canned peanut butter that bent the spoon when you tried to put the oil back with the ground peanuts. (But I had a budget - $3 a week for clothing, $3 a week for entertainment, $3 a week for dental, $3 a week for savings - paying bills first (electric, rent etc) for a family of 5 (and sometimes 6 when I raised by wife's sister or my brother.)

No potato chips, no soft drinks, ice-cream was a treat - no pop-tarts, no candy. My wife sewed to make shorts, we made our own deserts and entertainment was the beach or a park (free).

Plenty of chicken and eggs and tuna fish. Plenty of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, cheese sandwiches, soups. French fries from fresh potatoes instead of potato chips in the bag.

Do that for 45 years, and YES you are in a sweet spot.

Next time you go to the grocery store, look at how much people buy more expensive processed foods.

We are at a near all time low for smoking in this country so it seems a non-issue to blame cigarette use. Though I would have to have more specifics on how long it takes a person to go from 30k a year to 100k a year. I would just wager a general guess and say a job change was the major factor. I have significant doubts that your average client simply ate pbj and ramen noodles sober every night for 5 years and now make 70k a year from dividends. So I'm guessing it had something to do with budgeting better and eventually getting training for better jobs that then grant them a better income.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that a person went from 30 to 100K in a year. I meant to convey the thought that I have counseled people making 30 K and 100K.

But whether 5 figure or 6 figure, the basics were the same. No budget, credit card use and unbridled purchasing.

And if that is the case do you think that our current economy is more or less fixed at its current state? And by that I mean do you think that "everyone" could do this and get money or is it only so long as the majority stay in poverty? Can we make the average income in the united states 100k in today's dollars adjusted for inflation? Or will we always have mcdonalds workers, retail workers, ditch diggers, ect. The wealth opportunities are finite in our current system. Yes someone can become rich. But the % of poor people will remain largely the same.

With economic growth comes economic opportunities. Current economy fluctuates - like the ant, you save during the abundance so that you have in lack. Most people spend in the time of abundance and then find themselves in lack.

Most of my life, I was no more than $30K a year. Two children went to 4 year college - total cost $6,000. One went to two years - total cost $0. Planning and dedication were essential.

A famous Henry Ford quote, “Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t – you’re right,”

If you think "the wealth opportunities are finite" - then you are right. If you think "the wealth opportunities are infinite - then you are right.

When was the last time you saw "budgeting" at the high-school level? When was the last time you saw "discover the purpose of your future" along with "create your future vision" as an instruction?

You can earn $50,000 a year (at the end of your life) and still be rich. You can also have $10,000,000 and your marriage is a mess and your children are lost.

You equate success and wealth in terms of dollars. I have a Jesus perspective, "AMPC Luke 12:15 And He said to them, Guard yourselves and keep free from all covetousness (the immoderate desire for wealth, the greedy longing to have more); for a man’s life does not consist in and is not derived from possessing overflowing abundance or that which is over and above his needs.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
You equate success and wealth in terms of dollars. I have a Jesus perspective, "AMPC Luke 12:15 And He said to them, Guard yourselves and keep free from all covetousness (the immoderate desire for wealth, the greedy longing to have more); for a man’s life does not consist in and is not derived from possessing overflowing abundance or that which is over and above his needs.
Didn't you vote for Trump?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Didn't you vote for Trump?
What does "voting for Trump" mean to you? I voted for the Supreme Court.

Today I am voting for peace instead of violence. I am voting for a nation of laws and not one without laws. I am voting for a Republic instead of Socialism. I am voting for the original Constitution and not a new version.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
What does "voting for Trump" mean to you? I voted for the Supreme Court.

Today I am voting for peace instead of violence. I am voting for a nation of laws and not one without laws. I am voting for a Republic instead of Socialism. I am voting for the original Constitution and not a new version.
Your bible verse only matters to you when it comes to the SCOTUS and not the Presidency?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Your bible verse only matters to you when it comes to the SCOTUS and not the Presidency?
I don't think you understand the verse. Nothing in that verse says you can't have money. Just that the sum total of your life is not represented in dollars... does that make sense?


But what does "vote for Trump" mean to you? I expressed what it meant to me.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I don't think you understand the verse. Nothing in that verse says you can't have money. Just that the sum total of your life is not represented in dollars... does that make sense?
It makes sense, Donald's life is only represented in dollars. Always has been. Greed.


But what does "vote for Trump" mean to you? I expressed what it meant to me.
I assumed you voted for Trump
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Certainly economic factors have an impact... not disputing that fact.

However, i would still say that budgeting is the main factor! Vision writing is the second most important thing... and circumstances is third.
I cut the rest of it because this statement pretty much summed up your whole point. And it is false. Budgeting is something great. I'm not ever going to talk down on budgeting. It is a useful skill weather you are a millionaire or below the poverty line. But it isn't the source of income inequality or any of the issues I've been talking about. We simply don't make the money we used to if you exist in the bottom 90%. No amount of budgeting will change that. It has been a clear trajectory since the 70's. There are clear economic reasons as to why this happens and clear solutions to reverse it.

Personal responsibility of the average person does not change the market trends. There is no evidence that people are more frivolous with their money now vs any other time in the last 50 years. What needs to change is the income.

If a person is poor and 30 years old just telling them to live life with zero pleasures that cost money and maybe they will have a sizeable savings by 75 isn't a good model for economic reform.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why is there so much poverty in the U.S.?
This was all too predictable, such as Anthropologist Desmond Morris' prediction that this would happen that he made back in1970 and Alan Greenspan's prediction back in 2009 whereas he said that this was the most dangerous single thing for the security of this country.
 
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