Where does your faith leave you?

[sandy whitelinger]

Everyone puts faith in something. For example before you drive over a bridge you do so because you have faith that it will hold you up. Otherwise you would not drive over it (unless you are mentioned often in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). That is an exercise of faith.

What many people who want to take a scientific approach to things fail to understand is which parts of their belief is pure fact and what part is faith, or what they deem to be pure fact is based on something ultimately taken on faith.

What many people who place their faith in God fail to realize is that their faith will only carry them as long as they don't forget that it is faith alone which guides them. But just as the science believers, both have their fundamental truths that are ultimately based in faith.



Now, where does your faith lie? In something that yields a finite end or leads to life eternal?
Here are what I see as the options:

1. Believe science and be right. Final end- Dead.

2. Believe science and be wrong. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

3. Believe God and be wrong. Final end- Dead.

4. Not believe God and there be God. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

5. Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness.

Now, it seems to me that the best solution is #5, to believe in God. You either end up dead (if there is no God) or living life eternal in happiness. The logic seems clear to me.

I think what bugs most people is that they might be wrong or not believe truth. I mean this in a generic sense. This is true for both the science guy and the God believer. What each feels most secure in is the belief that what they believe is truth. Consequently they put their faith in what they believe and thereby convince themselves that what they believe is true (whether it is or not)and trust this by faith. Unfortunately, for the science guy, in the final end their faith has really done nothing to bring them any great gain except their own peace that what they believe is correct.

In conclusion I quote Joshua 24:15 , "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for meand my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

 

[Darkdale]

I put my faith in reason, in logic, and in my own experience. I put my faith in my friends, my family, and my community. I put my faith in freedom, in free markets, and in free people. I am agnostic with regard to the afterlife, to the realities of divine forces, spirits, and so forth, but choose to believe in the mythology of my pre-christian ancestors.

I really have nothing in common with Middle Eastern religions. I don't believe in dualism. I don't believe in eternal life (though that doesn't mean there won't be another one), but even the gods will one day pass away.

Science is the best objective standard we have, so I defer to it whenever possible. I don't believe there is anything called pure facts, or pure faith. We have to use our reason, and choose to believe what seems the most logical to us.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I put my faith in reason, in logic, and in my own experience. I put my faith in my friends, my family, and my community. I put my faith in freedom, in free markets, and in free people. I am agnostic with regard to the afterlife, to the realities of divine forces, spirits, and so forth, but choose to believe in the mythology of my pre-christian ancestors.

I really have nothing in common with Middle Eastern religions. I don't believe in dualism. I don't believe in eternal life (though that doesn't mean there won't be another one), but even the gods will one day pass away.

Science is the best objective standard we have, so I defer to it whenever possible. I don't believe there is anything called pure facts, or pure faith. We have to use our reason, and choose to believe what seems the most logical to us.

And in the end, where does this leave you?

 

[mingmty]

I'm a philosophical Taoist and practical scientist, don't really like the religious Taoism that was born long after Lao-Tse, I love the original Taoism revived by Chuang-Tzu.

Once that has been cleared up I will answer your question according to my beliefs:

This is true for both the science guy and the God believer. What each feels most secure in is the belief that what they believe is truth. Consequently they put their faith in what they believe and thereby convince themselves that what they believe is true (whether it is or not)and trust this by faith.

You are wrong, science has uncovered many unquestionable truths using the scientific method, what most religious driven persons can't seem to understand is that science and religion use a different approach that uncover different truths about life, science explains the "how" while religion explains the "why", they can't be mixed up.

Using differential equations I can predict quite a lot of events, that's because I know before hand how are they going to unfold by years of human scientific investigation, using very complex ideal systems I can tell you how a reciber is going to modulate a signal with an exactitud of nanoseconds, and that my friend is the truth, no matter where and when or by who, the electromagnetic fields will do just what I predicted.

Science is not a matter of faith, and if you think so then you didn't pay attention to your high school lessons.

Now, if you ask me "why" does electromagnetic fields work that way, well, I don't know, they just do. Here you can chose whatever belif you like but your comparison between science and religion is ridiculous.

1. Believe science and be right. Final end- Dead.

2. Believe science and be wrong. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

3. Believe God and be wrong. Final end- Dead.

4. Not believe God and there be God. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

5. Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness.

Now, it seems to me that the best solution is #5, to believe in God. You either end up dead (if there is no God) or living life eternal in happiness. The logic seems clear to me.

Your logic is completely Christian, your options are meaningless to someone who isn't Christian and are incomplete. You are too concerned about death and that has been the primary tool for manipulation, fear makes people easy to manage. Essentially what you said is "I believe in God not really because I belive in him but because I'm scared of death and is my best shot"

 

[Popeyesays]

Everyone puts faith in something. For example before you drive over a bridge you do so because you have faith that it will hold you up. Otherwise you would not drive over it (unless you are mentioned often in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). That is an exercise of faith.

What many people who want to take a scientific approach to things fail to understand is which parts of their belief is pure fact and what part is faith, or what they deem to be pure fact is based on something ultimately taken on faith.

What many people who place their faith in God fail to realize is that their faith will only carry them as long as they don't forget that it is faith alone which guides them. But just as the science believers, both have their fundamental truths that are ultimately based in faith.



Now, where does your faith lie? In something that yields a finite end or leads to life eternal?
Here are what I see as the options:

1. Believe science and be right. Final end- Dead.

2. Believe science and be wrong. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

3. Believe God and be wrong. Final end- Dead.

4. Not believe God and there be God. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

5. Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness.

Now, it seems to me that the best solution is #5, to believe in God. You either end up dead (if there is no God) or living life eternal in happiness. The logic seems clear to me.

I think what bugs most people is that they might be wrong or not believe truth. I mean this in a generic sense. This is true for both the science guy and the God believer. What each feels most secure in is the belief that what they believe is truth. Consequently they put their faith in what they believe and thereby convince themselves that what they believe is true (whether it is or not)and trust this by faith. Unfortunately, for the science guy, in the final end their faith has really done nothing to bring them any great gain except their own peace that what they believe is correct.

In conclusion I quote Joshua 24:15 , "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for meand my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

This is just "Pascal's Wager" re-cast, and as such is logically and morally bankrupt.

Regards,
Scott

 

[cardero]

sandy whitelinger writes: Everyone puts faith in something.

I don’t.

sandy whitelinger writes: For example before you drive over a bridge you do so because you have faith that it will hold you up.

The truth stands that the bridge will either hold you up or it won’t. Putting faith into the belief that you will cross safely does not make the bridge any stronger or a lack of faith, make it any weaker.

sandy whitelinger writes: What many people who want to take a scientific approach to things fail to understand is which parts of their belief is pure fact and what part is faith, or what they deem to be pure fact is based on something ultimately taken on faith.

Go ahead. I’m listening.

sandy whitelinger writes: What many people who place their faith in God fail to realize is that their faith will only carry them as long as they don't forget that it is faith alone which guides them.

I agree, faith breeds expectation. What many people do not realize either is that they are putting faith into a GOD who only operates on truth. These same people would become very disappointed if they found out that GOD encouraged a relationship with them on the same basis.

sandy whitelinger writes: Now, where does your faith lie? In something that yields a finite end or leads to life eternal?

I do not depend on GOD to guide my life anymore than I expect Him to reward me after death for a life well done. I expect nothing from GOD. People should enjoy a relationship for who someone is, not for what they have or what you can expect them to give you.

sandy whitelinger writes: I think what bugs most people is that they might be wrong or not believe truth.

Faith will do this to you. Can you imagine someone practicing a faith for over 5 (10, 15, 20) years just to find out they were wrong. It is a very ego shattering experience. This I would believe, is something that many people would want to avoid.

sandy whitelinger writes: What each feels most secure in is the belief that what they believe is truth.

There is a convenience to religion, a sort of shade to hide behind. A belief in a GOD that cannot be proven, often makes you wonder if this is intentional and should aslo make one wonder who is behind this intention.

sandy whitelinger writes: Consequently they put their faith in what they believe and thereby convince themselves that what they believe is true (whether it is or not)and trust this by faith.

I have learned that faith is neither trust or truth which is why I find it easy to recognize so that I do not step in it.

 

[painted wolf]

I choose 6: believe in Science and God.... if I'm wrong I'm dead, if I'm right woot, I'm still dead but I'm not alone and bord.

as a non-christian who believes in a loving non-hell making Creator...
I'm pretty ok with Science.
I can happily have faith both in the Bridge and in Creator who (through evolution )gave us the intelligence build the bridge.
I don't worry about the lake I cross being on fire.

wa:do

 

[dawny0826]

Not believe God and there be God. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness

I believe in these two...to an extent...I don't believe that mere belief in God...results in everlasting life.

And my faith sustains me....so that's where I am.

 

[Atheist_Dave]

I dont see what the point of this is sandy, are you saying I should believe just in case he happens to exist? He likes cowards does he? Just a thought.

 

[Halcyon]

I have to go with;

7)Believe in science as it governs this universe, but has an open mind to what lies beyond.

 

[gnomon]

I do not equate faith with making an assumption. I have no faith that the bridge will hold when I drive over it. I get out of the truck, tiptoe to the bridge, scream back at the cars honking their horns, test the stability of the bridge by tentatively placing a toe on it, then run back to my truck, turn around and drive the other direction.

I really have nothing constructive to say, but I'm in a mood....

 

[michel]

Everyone puts faith in something. For example before you drive over a bridge you do so because you have faith that it will hold you up. Otherwise you would not drive over it (unless you are mentioned often in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). That is an exercise of faith.

What many people who want to take a scientific approach to things fail to understand is which parts of their belief is pure fact and what part is faith, or what they deem to be pure fact is based on something ultimately taken on faith.

What many people who place their faith in God fail to realize is that their faith will only carry them as long as they don't forget that it is faith alone which guides them. But just as the science believers, both have their fundamental truths that are ultimately based in faith.



Now, where does your faith lie? In something that yields a finite end or leads to life eternal?
Here are what I see as the options:

1. Believe science and be right. Final end- Dead.

2. Believe science and be wrong. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

3. Believe God and be wrong. Final end- Dead.

4. Not believe God and there be God. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

5. Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness.

Now, it seems to me that the best solution is #5, to believe in God. You either end up dead (if there is no God) or living life eternal in happiness. The logic seems clear to me.

I think what bugs most people is that they might be wrong or not believe truth. I mean this in a generic sense. This is true for both the science guy and the God believer. What each feels most secure in is the belief that what they believe is truth. Consequently they put their faith in what they believe and thereby convince themselves that what they believe is true (whether it is or not)and trust this by faith. Unfortunately, for the science guy, in the final end their faith has really done nothing to bring them any great gain except their own peace that what they believe is correct.

In conclusion I quote Joshua 24:15 , "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for meand my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

I think I am totally happy in my faith, in that there is an everloving God, and that I will be proved right in the end. If I am not right ? I won't know about it....just dust to dust, with nothing to show for it.

Guess I can't loose!:biglaugh:

 

[Darkdale]

And in the end, where does this leave you?

Six feet under and slightly less attractive. I'm happy with that. Makes this trip that much more beautiful.

 

[Atheist_Dave]

Well said darkdale, life isnt something to put up with until we die, it is a marvalous journey we should enjoy

Peace x

 

[Feathers in Hair]

5. Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness.

Now, it seems to me that the best solution is #5, to believe in God.

This last 'solution' seems entirely dependant upon the assumption that only belief in one, very specific god will 'net' you eternal happiness.

You either end up dead (if there is no God) or living life eternal in happiness. The logic seems clear to me.

Again, based only upon one specific belief of the afterlife.

Unfortunately, for the science guy, in the final end their faith has really done nothing to bring them any great gain except their own peace that what they believe is correct.

Is one assuming that the 'science guy' is of another faith or of no faith? And is one then assuming that this will not garner them an acceptable afterlife, if any?

In conclusion I quote Joshua 24:15 , "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for meand my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

That's nice, and I'm glad that works for you and your house. Personally, I serve no one, save the rest of existence. I will not have anyone tell me that I must make a choice of who I will serve. I am a servant, a priestess and a princess of the universe. Settling for anything less would be dishonorable.

 

[sojourner]

Everyone puts faith in something. For example before you drive over a bridge you do so because you have faith that it will hold you up. Otherwise you would not drive over it (unless you are mentioned often in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). That is an exercise of faith.

What many people who want to take a scientific approach to things fail to understand is which parts of their belief is pure fact and what part is faith, or what they deem to be pure fact is based on something ultimately taken on faith.

What many people who place their faith in God fail to realize is that their faith will only carry them as long as they don't forget that it is faith alone which guides them. But just as the science believers, both have their fundamental truths that are ultimately based in faith.



Now, where does your faith lie? In something that yields a finite end or leads to life eternal?
Here are what I see as the options:

1. Believe science and be right. Final end- Dead.

2. Believe science and be wrong. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

3. Believe God and be wrong. Final end- Dead.

4. Not believe God and there be God. Final end- Dead or in the lake of fire.

5. Believe God and be right. Final end- Living life eternal in happiness.

Now, it seems to me that the best solution is #5, to believe in God. You either end up dead (if there is no God) or living life eternal in happiness. The logic seems clear to me.

I think what bugs most people is that they might be wrong or not believe truth. I mean this in a generic sense. This is true for both the science guy and the God believer. What each feels most secure in is the belief that what they believe is truth. Consequently they put their faith in what they believe and thereby convince themselves that what they believe is true (whether it is or not)and trust this by faith. Unfortunately, for the science guy, in the final end their faith has really done nothing to bring them any great gain except their own peace that what they believe is correct.

In conclusion I quote Joshua 24:15 , "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for meand my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

Yes. That's, I believe, Paschal's famous logic. It makes sense in an empirical way, but empiricism is not the way of the Christian. Paschal's logic diminishes Christian faith by making it something that "gets you the prize" at the end of the game. Sadly, I have to agree moe with the atheists here. This life is a marvelous journey.

Christian faith isn't about "getting the prize at the end." Christian faith is about claiming the abundant life that is already yours because of Jesus, and it's about the privilege of following Jesus. Today.

The whole point of the gospel message, I think, is that our salvation is sure. We don't have to spend any more time worrying and wondering and toiling to assure our spot at the Table. The good news is that we are now free to spend our time loving God and loving our neighbor, not having to worry about ourselves.

That's where my faith leaves me.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Science is not a matter of faith, and if you think so then you didn't pay attention to your high school lessons.

Let me help you with a very simple analogy then.

First of all the Biblical definition of faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Lets take an atom for the example. You can't see it yet there is evidence that it is there. That is faith.

 

[meogi]

First of all the Biblical definition of faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Lets take an atom for the example. You can't see it yet there is evidence that it is there. That is faith.

Except we can see atoms. Your analogy falls apart with that.

 

[painted wolf]

you can oberve an atom if you have the equipment.... Particle physicists do it all the time... I've
seen an atom smasher (unfortunatly it was down for repairs, but the guts were really informative) that a friend of mine worked with in college.

if you want to see an image of individual atoms a photo taken with a Transmission Electron Microscope can be found in the Encyclopedia Britanica here: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-48378

you can even observe the paths of traveling atoms with this simple experament:
http://spikesworld.spike-jamie.com/science/atoms/c413-09-oberserving.html

wa:do

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

Hello, Pascal's wager! It's been a while. And now, I will bring up the inevitable question: what if you've got the wrong G-d? Plus, d'you know, I don't think the two (religion and science) are exclusive. I happen to be a Jew with a deep love for physics, for example.

And also the inevitable objection: surely belief is not simply about measuring the odds and going for what seems like might work out best for you.

And yeah, sure, faith does at some level come into science. Comes into all sorts of things. But it's pretty fundamentally different from religion. Science is fact with a bit of faith, religion is faith with a bit of fact.