1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Where does the NWT Bible Falsify?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    29,007
    Ratings:
    +12,281
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    I got a couple of minutes, so this will be very brief.
    Depends on how one defines "deity" under these circumstances, plus the strong impression I get is that you did not get into the link on what "essence" means and implies in this arena.

    The Suffering Servant is Israel personified as even some Christian commentaries state. A careful reading of Deutero-Isaiah makes that quite clear as places and events deal with matters hundreds of years prior to Jesus during the Babylonian exile.

    You say "manifested", and I say "essence", so we may not be that far apart even though I believe the latter to be far more to the point as it is used throughout the scriptures, whereas "manifested" is not. Again, maybe look it up.

    Take care.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,002
    Ratings:
    +5,272
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Verse 2 clearly states that it is an angel. Why did you leave it out? This one spoke as if he was God....a true spokesman, using God's words. Do you understand this? He is God's representative.

    Jesus is most certainly the Logos....the one who spoke for God before his birth as a human. He spoke for God whilst on earth as well. He is "the only begotten son" of his Father. Do you know why the father/son relationship between God and Jesus is stressed in scripture? Because God is the creator of his son.....Jesus is not the only son of God but he is unique.....he is the first and only direct creation of his Father and the one used by God to create all other things.

    Colossians 1:15-17 NASB....
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

    How are "all things created for him and through him" if he is God? How is he a "firstborn" if he is God? Can the son be his own father? Seriously?

    I believe that scripture interprets itself....you just have to know what it says....what the whole of the Bible teaches, not just selected verses taken out of their proper context.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    967
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    It's been interesting. So again, perhaps a direct answer could be offered here by you about the statement at Matthew 3:17 -- was Jesus talking to himself at Matthew 3:17, or was another person saying: "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (As I said, it's been interesting. :))
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    967
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    I think Metis spoke accurately. As in, hit the nail on the head. He squared it.
     
  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    967
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    That's a rather astounding statement -- you say "When Jesus isn't God..." When he isn't God?????? I'm going by your words and wondering when you think (according to your understanding) that Jesus wasn't "God" sometimes. God means superior entity. Therefore, many have many "gods." But for a Christian, the word denoting the Most High God is He who spoke from heaven stating that we should listen to His son.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,002
    Ratings:
    +5,272
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Philippians 2 is not a trinity admission at all.....read it carefully. I posted this in another reply....

    Philippians 2:5-11....
    "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    This is often presented as a proof text for the trinity but on closer inspection it becomes just the opposite.

    Jesus was "existing in God's "form".....what is God's form? John says that "God is a spirit"....so Jesus was a spirit too before coming to earth to be born as a human child. All who dwell in heaven are spirits.
    He had no desire to grasp equality with God even though some may have wanted to give him that status because he could perform miracles. Emptying himself willingly of his glorious spiritual form and taking the humble form of men he 'became obedient to the point of death"......obedient to whom? Can one part of God be obedient to an equal part of himself?

    But what else do we see here? "God highly exalted him" and "bestowed a name that is above every name"....how is that even possible if he is God? One part of the Almighty exalts an equal part of himself and then gives him a name above every other? Yahweh already has the highest name in existence (Psalm 83:18KJV)
    Then we have every knee bowing to Jesus, both angels and humans, but does the glory go to Jesus? NO! Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord is "to the glory of God the Father".

    On closer investigation, there is no trinity there at all.

    You can read into scripture what is not there by looking for things that imply what you want to believe.....unless you have a direct statement from either God or his son stating that they are equal parts of a triune godhead.....then it is an assumption, not a Biblical fact. Even the Catholic church admits that the trinity is not in the Bible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +228
    Religion:
    Christian
    Here's why Israel cannot possibly be the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah chapter 53:

    1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

    2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.

    3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

    4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

    5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.

    6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel? (website no longer exists)
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    5,508
    Ratings:
    +3,163
    Religion:
    Christian
    This is a form of Modalistic Monarchianism, not trinitarianism.

    Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia

    Grief, there are so many different views!

    No wonder there are over 30,000 sects in Christianity! (And during a conflict, most groups support their respective national brotherhood over their spiritual brotherhood.)

    Satan (the Great Deceiver) has had a field day w/ Christianity, more so than with any other religious base.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +228
    Religion:
    Christian
    Nice try but Philippians above agrees with other scriptures, including John chapter one and all the other "deity of Jesus" scriptures.

    And the ideal that Jesus was an angel before his incarnation is nuts. Jesus created angels.
     
  10. tigger2

    tigger2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2019
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +114
    Religion:
    JW
    ..............................

    Although the following Bible has plenty of mistranslations, it has rendered this part of Phil. 2:6 correctly:

    “He did not think that by force [harpagmos] he should try to become equal with God” - GNB.

    The reason is because of the clear meaning of the New Testament (NT) Greek word harpagmos (ἁρπαγμὸς).

    Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

    “725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

    And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

    In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

    “We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”

    Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

    And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

    “have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

    The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,608
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    I'm not sure what you're getting at, the trinity is a description, and it can vary as such. The church didn't invent the trinity, they attempted to describe and codify it. It's like saying that the church invented salvation from Jesus, or such.
     
    #171 Desert Snake, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  12. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Messages:
    340
    Ratings:
    +105
    Religion:
    Natsari
    The discussion from both sides is unnecessary. It is not possible to explain something with the help of individual biblical passages, it does not work. You have to look at the Bible in its entire context to understand it, if you don't do it, it's no wonder that contradictions appear. One also has to put oneself in the former time and ask oneself, what was the meaning of this word at that time? What is also unnecessary is that @tigger2 every time try to prove his view through Bible scholars. But what he doesn't mention is that there are just as many scholars who have a different opinion. He seeks only those who support his opinion, the rest he ignores.
    (Jehovah's Witnesses also misquote sometimes)
    So relying on the opinion of the bible scholars doesn't help because everyone says something different. One should rely on the Holy Spirit because he is the only true scholar who guides us right.
    If one now sees the Bible as a whole picture, then one will recognize that Jesus is the God who came into the flesh.
    Deeje says it is the biggest blasphemy to see Jesus as the one true God. If you think that, then think that. But notice one thing, our word is powerful. For our word we will be justified or cursed forever.
     
    #172 calm, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,608
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    By the way, before being claimed a heresy, most Christians believed this with slight variation.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    Christians have taken Isaiah 53 out of context... which is a pathetic thing to do. Read ALL of Isaiah.. Israel is the suffering servant.
     
  15. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +228
    Religion:
    Christian
    Not a chance. Post # 167 blows that completely out of the water.

    Where does the NWT Bible Falsify?
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,306
    Religion:
    Christian
    Read ALL of Isaiah.. Israel is the suffering servant all the way thru.

    Jesus wasn't despised of men. By all accounts the people loved him and swarmed to hear him speak.
     
  17. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +228
    Religion:
    Christian
    I have read all of Isaiah. It doesn't change a thing about Isaiah 53.

    And if you think Jesus wasn't despised by men, then YOU haven't read John chapter 8, among other examples.

    48
    The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
    49
    "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.
    50
    I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.
    51
    I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
    52
    At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
    53
    Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"
    54
    Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
    55
    Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.
    56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
    57
    "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
    58
    "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
    59
    At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    And finally, they CRUCIFIED HIM. Oh, how they loved him! LOL.

     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,002
    Ratings:
    +5,272
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    You do understand that Jesus can be divine, without being God....? He can be god-like without being God....? John chapter one does not say that Jesus is Almighty God. He is "the Logos" and it was 'the Logos who became flesh', not God.

    John 1:18 says that no man has ever seen God, but that "the only begotten god" has explained him.
    In order to be "begotten", the son had to have a begetter...one who gave him life.

    Like God, Jesus was a spirit creature before his human birth. He willingly gave up his glorious spirit body to become a mortal human. If he was God, he was immortal and immortals cannot die. If Jesus did not really die, then the ransom is not paid, and we are all still condemned. (Matthew 20:28)

    Do you understand the mechanics of the ransom? Do you know how the laws of redemption worked in Israel? If you did, you would understand why a third of God could not possibly come to earth to pay for something a mere human did. It also requires belief that humans can kill an immortal God.

    Every one of your scriptures "suggests" what you want it to, but not one of them is a direct statement from either God or his Christ that Jesus is Jehovah. You are only going by implication. Twisting the words can make it say whatever you want it to, but if there is no direct statement (and countless verses to the contrary) then you stake your life on a blasphemy....a clear breach of the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) Trinitarians put the son in place of the Father....something Jesus would never have tolerated.

    Jehovah shares his sovereignty with no created being....not even his beloved "firstborn" son. (Colossians 1:15-17) Jesus himself would be appalled at the suggestion. He is a dedicated "servant" of his Father. (Acts 4:27; 30) Never once did he claim equality with his own God. In fact, when he returned to heaven, he still called his Father "my God". (Revelation 3:12) Does God worship part of himself in heaven? Ridiculous!

    In John 1:1, if you read the Greek, there are two "gods" mentioned in that verse....only one is Jehovah (ho theos). Understanding what "theos" means in Greek, leads to a different conclusion if you only read the English translation. There is a little word "ho" which is translated "the", and if you read it in Greek, you will see that "ho" is used for "the Word" who was "with THE God" but he was not "THE God" but "a god"...a "divine mighty one", which is the meaning of "theos" in Greek.

    The Greeks were polytheistic and all their gods had names.....the one God of the Jews had no name, (because the Jews had superstitiously stopped uttering it) so to distinguish him from any other "divine mighty one", they added the definite article "the", in much the same way as we would identify a celebrity with the same name as a person who is not famous. If I said I was going to invite Brad Pitt for dinner....one would ask....not THE Brad Pitt?

    Following on in John 1:14, we see that it was "the Word who became flesh", not THE God. Further again in V 18 we have confirmation that "no man has ever seen God"....so how many people saw Jesus? There are countless verses that show how Jesus could not be God incarnate. He did not have to be God to redeem mankind. That would be like paying $100,000,000 trillion for a ransom that demanded $10,000. Tens of millions of cans of bug spray to take down one mosquito.

    In scripture, Jesus has many names depending on the role he is fulfilling, but there is only one Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18) God has only one name and it is mentioned almost 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. (Exodus 3:13-15) Not once is Jesus ever called "Jehovah" (YHWH).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,608
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    Even going by your interpretation of that verse, *which I don't , you would have an Angel noted, then G-d speaking from the burning bush.
    So, not direct at all, just an interpretation, even by your own interpretation.
    Exodus 3:4-14
    If these verses aren't direct,
    then nothing can be considered direct, which of course goes with your general interpretation of Scripture, anyway.

    *I believe that it is God noted, and God talking, the whole way through.
    Exodus 3:2-14
     
    #179 Desert Snake, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  20. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,825
    Ratings:
    +228
    Religion:
    Christian
    No, I'm not buying that.

    In his glory.
    Jesus was God before his incarnation (John 1).

    False. Jesus and the Father are both God. Neither one is in place of the other.

    Jesus is Jehovah.

    Please save your JW revision of John 1 for someone else. If you think there are two "gods" there then you guys are polytheists.

    God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one." - John 17:11

    Jesus Must be Jehovah

    Jesus Must be Jehovah
     
Loading...