1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Where does the NWT Bible Falsify?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,007
    Ratings:
    +5,274
    Religion:
    Christian JW

    Matthew 1:23...

    “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will name him Im·manʹu·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”

    Was Jesus ever called Immanuel? He was called Jesus, [Ye·shuʹaʽ or Yehoh·shuʹaʽ] and means “Jehovah Is Salvation

    Nope, he was not a manifestation of God, but a servant sent on a mission which he fulfilled willingly and obediently.
    As Paul states in Philippians 2:5-11....
    "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    This is often presented as a proof text for the trinity but on closer inspection it becomes just the opposite.

    Jesus was "existing in God's "form".....what is God's form? John says that "God is a spirit"....so Jesus was a spirit too before coming to earth to be born as a human child. He had no desire to grasp equality with God even though some may have wanted to give him that status, because he could perform miracles. Taking the humble form of men he 'became obedient to the point of death"...obedient to whom? Can one part of God be obedient to an equal part of himself?
    But what else do we see here? "God highly exalted him" and "bestowed a name that is above every name"....how is that even possible if he is God? One part of the Almighty exalts an equal part of himself and then gives him a name above every other? Yahweh already has the highest name in existence (Psalm 83:18KJV)
    Then we have every knee bowing to Jesus both angels and humans, but does the glory go to Jesus? NO! Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord is "to the glory of God the Father".
     
  2. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,618
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    You are saying that Jesus isn't the Messiah, aside from saying that Jesus isn't the Lord. Here's why.
    Matthew 1:21
    ...'for he shall save his people from their sins'.

    Yoheshua doesn't mean what that verse just stated; that he will save... not someone else. Him.

    Matthew 1:22
    [KJV]
    Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
    Matthew 1:23

    In other words, the names have to have the same meaning, in order for Jesus to be the Messiah.

    You are allowing faulty scholarship to make Scriptures that you claim to be true, to not only contradict the Bible, it also even contradicts your own beliefs, presuming you believe Jesus to be the Messiah.


    How they derived 'Yoheshua' from Jesus, is from guessing. They guessed incorrectly. They basically went from 'Yeshu', to Joshua, to Yoheshua; however since they presumably were not reading their Bibles, who knows, they failed to notice that Matthew tells us that the name cannot be Yoheshua.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,007
    Ratings:
    +5,274
    Religion:
    Christian JW

    Hang on...I did not say that Jesus is not the Messiah, because he most certainly was. How did Jesus save his people from their sins? By offering his life for them. He did not have to be God to do that. He is called our redeemer....do you understand how redemption laws worked in Israel? Please tell me if you know.

    Jesus is "Lord"....."to the glory of God the Father"......he is not the Father because he is Jesus....his Father is Jehovah. Jesus is a creation of his Father. (Colossians 1:15-17) Jesus called his Father "the only true God"...he never once said that he was God. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to claim that Jesus is God.

    Yes, Jesus' birth was foretold by Isaiah over 700 years before he was born. It is the meaning of the name "Immanuel" that applies and God was certainly with Jesus and his mission. "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation"....both significantly related to his role as Messiah.

    The scholarship I follow has proven to be absolutely correct in every research topic I have ever undertaken. Anyone who can say that Jesus is God, does not know what the Bible as a whole, teaches. Before the Catholic Church made it into a doctrine, no one had ever heard of a trinity......only in pagan religions.

    Seriously..... Do we speak Hebrew? Whatever names are used in scripture, the English translation takes care of it. According to the Jewish Tanah, Yehoshua is Joshua.
    Jesus and Jehovah are perfectly acceptable in English and if you want to get pedantic about the names, then we need to change every Bible with a "J" name in it because there is no "J" in Hebrew. Do you know how many "J" names there are? Most of them incorporate the name of God.

    I think that God and his Christ can speak every language.....what about you?

     
  4. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Messages:
    342
    Ratings:
    +105
    Religion:
    Natsari
    I have to interfere for a moment.
    Christians believed in the Trinity before the Catholic Church even teached it.
    For example, Justin Martyr:
      • 150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)
      • 150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.
      • "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
    Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity:

    "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).


    170 AD Tatian the Syrian:

      • 170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

    Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity:

    "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
    "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

    "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

    177 AD Athenagoras:
      • 177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).

    "He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things." (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks. A.D. 200).

    "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan." (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians. A.D. 110).

    There is much more evidence to prove that there were Christians who believed in the Trinity before the Catholic Church added it to its teachings in the 4th century.
     
    #104 calm, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,829
    Ratings:
    +228
    Religion:
    Christian
    If I "got out more"? What, 40+ years of serious studying of the Bible / New Testament, plus two Biblical Theology degrees and I'm the one who needs to get out more? You need to pay attention to what was written, and in this case it's the numerous scriptural examples in post # 64 that Jesus is Jehovah.
     
  6. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    969
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well, that's interesting that you write post-apocalyptic fiction. Where do you get your ideas from about what happens after the Apocalypse? The Bible does have a description, obviously though not mentioning by name in particular who will be alive after the Apocaplyse. But there are general understandings as to how life will be after. A very favorite scripture of many is that at Isaiah 11:6-9

    6The wolf will live with the lamb,
    and the leopard will lie down with the goat;
    the calf and young lion and fatling will be together,a
    and a little child will lead them.

    7The cow will graze with the bear,
    their young will lie down together,
    and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

    8The infant will play by the cobra’s den,
    and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.

    9They will neither harm nor destroy
    on all My holy mountain,
    for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
    as the sea is full of water.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. tigger2

    tigger2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2019
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +114
    Religion:
    JW
    The name to be given was simply a common expression for Israelites throughout the ages: 'God is with us' meaning, obviously,' God is helping us' or 'God is on our side.' Mathew 1:23 does not say the Lord is with us - this is 'falsifying the Bible.'

    The name 'Jesus' is a mistransliteration of Yehoshua which means 'Yehowah [YHWH] is Savior.' The actual meaning, like the symbolic Immanuel, is applied to the Father, not the person who bears the name.
     
  8. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,217
    Ratings:
    +2,039
    I have my own opinion about some things and those who believe themselves superior to me should at least humble themselves before God. There are reasons that I feel what I do, and some of that is because of my experiences before the Christian Pastorate. For me Jesus is not God. He can't be both the Son of God and God too.

    I too served in uniform during Vietnam, and have studied the Bible for over 40 years. I was trying to find a way to go to Bible College when my world blew up. Since then I have remained faithful to God, or Allah SWT, while just lots of churches rejected me. And, doing some reading the JW would too.

    Go your way in peace Sir, but leave me alone. I'll face a loving God without you.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,618
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    What you are presenting is a theory.

    If you read the verses in a straightforward manner, it is the meaning of the names, that matches, not an esoteric "inference" from how one might interpret Immanuel, in usage.
    Matthew 1:22
    Matthew 1:23
    Matthew 1:24
    In other words, because of the prophecy, JESUS has the same actual meaning, as a name, as Immanuel.

    Nowhere does Matthew say that Jesus's name is Yehoshua, Yoheshua, or even Joshua.



    Jesus isn't a mistransliteration of Yehoshua, the name Jesus is a direct variant of Greek language Iesous, Iesou
    Iesu
    Yesu
    Jesus
    Iesous

    and some others,
    Are all variants of the correct name, since letter changes do not necessarily change the actual name and name meaning.
    Note that none of these correct variants of JESUS'S name change the meaning, or change the name itself, as your theory does.
     
    #109 Desert Snake, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,007
    Ratings:
    +5,274
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Well thank you for all of that......but what does it change?

    It's responses like this that are typical of trinitarians. Do you realise that anything written after the close of the Bible canon cannot be relied upon to be as accurate as scripture? Do you not understand that the 'great apostasy', that was foretold by Jesus and his apostles was "already at work" even before the death of the apostles?

    The Bible says that the apostles were 'acting as a restraint' against this apostasy until the last inclusion in Christian scripture was penned. (2 Thessalonians 2:3; 6-12) As soon as the last apostle John died, then there was nothing to stop that apostasy from corrupting Christianity, just as thoroughly as it did to Judaism.....it has the same enemy tirelessly working behind the scenes, influencing humans who thought they knew better. All Catholicism did was make these apostate ideas that slowly filtered into church teachings, into "church" doctrine. The fact that these doctrines were never part of Jesus' teachings never seemed to bother them. The fact that it took over 300 years to be officially accepted should tell you something.
    These teachings became so ingrained in the thinking, practices and power of the church that, when the Reformation took place, those core doctrines were carried over into Protestantism and on into all the divided churches of Christendom. The fact that you support them too, says a lot about your own education. Who are you relying on to provide your own beliefs?

    Paul wrote.....
    "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “ The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “ Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.” (2 Timothy 2:15-19 NASB)

    Do you know how quickly gangrene spreads? Did the church "abstain from wickedness"? Their history is a horror story.
    Jesus said that the "weeds" of false Christianity would be sown by the devil "while men were sleeping". (Matthew 13:36-43)......apostasy 'spread like gangrene' after the restraining influence of the apostles was gone. From the second century onward, things continued to deteriorate until finally in the 4th century, a Roman Emperor, who was an astute politician, found a way to consolidate his religiously divided empire....he created a "universal" religion to bring all of his citizens together. Christendom was born and it continues to this day to divide Christ, carving his teachings up into thousands of bickering sects, to the point of ridiculous. But we have the assurance that God knows his own. Jesus will judge us all by the same measure. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Quoting the "Church Fathers" therefore, does not negate what is written in scripture......official canonical scripture. There is NO trinity in the Bible.
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    969
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    If I might add to a point above, if a person says to a friend who is explaining something to him, "I'm with you on this," it means the person is supporting him. He doesn't have to be with him in person. When a voice was heard from heaven at Jesus' baptism, saying, "This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy,” (Matthew 3:17) it was not that Jesus ricocheted his own voice to heaven and back. Jesus did not speak those words--his Father did.
     
    #111 YoursTrue, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  12. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    969
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes, that is true.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,217
    Ratings:
    +2,039
    I'm waiting for someone to claim that Christ is Jesus' last name. :)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,618
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    There is only 'One Lord' of Believers. This is said quite plainly in more than one verse. I don't know where you are getting all of these 'lord' interpretations, do you just guess at what it means, unless it is specified?
    1 Corinthians 1:10
    'Lord of us Jesus Christ...'
    1 Corinthians 15:29
    'Lord of us, christ of him...'
    2 Corinthians 6:18
    'Lord Almighty...'

    The Bible clearly says that there is only One Lord of Believers.
     
  15. tigger2

    tigger2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2019
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +114
    Religion:
    JW
    The Messiah's Hebrew Name: "Yeshua" Or "Yahshua"?
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,618
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    Perhaps we can say Jesus's name, here, it's more apt.
    I believe neither, however Aramaic Yeshua seems like a variant that matches Yesu, Iesu, Iesou, so forth. The sound differences there are just a high 'e' , and a vowel at the end, which by my estimation can still be correct.

    Now, whether they 'Aramaic Biblicists' consider that a variation of Yoheshua, or Yehoshua, I'm not sure.

    The first vowel sound can vary, however combined with the ending, the Aramaic Yeshua seems like a variant that could happen just because of the way they speak. Aramaic might tend to high 'e's, it seems like it, they pronounce other names with high 'e's that don't have that in Greek or Hebrew.

    In other words, Aramaic Yeshua is fine by my estimation.
     
    #116 Desert Snake, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,618
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    Speaking of which, I find it very difficult to believe that both Matthew and the Greek writers of the Bible, were not able to write the name of Jesus to at least a closer approximation of what the theory is presenting.
    So, say they could not approximate the ending sound, then they would simply make sure that the general name was being imparted, in written form, by emphasizing the first vowel, so forth.

    They were masters at transliteration, and except for some completely unusual combination of sounds, they would not have presented something so entirely different from what the 'different name' theory presents.
     
    #117 Desert Snake, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    969
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes, one Lord and one God of true believers. Again, when Jesus was baptized and a voice was heard saying from heaven, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased," would you say it was really Jesus' voice boomeranging or however you would phrase it, from him to heaven and back again? (Matthew 3:17)
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    969
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why would you say above, "Perhaps we can say Jesus's name, here, it's more apt." What is more apt and why?
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,618
    Ratings:
    +1,680
    We should figure out which 'god' you're talking about. Your methodology of reading Scripture wouldn't make that specific.
     
Loading...