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Featured Where does the NWT Bible Falsify?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

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    Jesus sacrificed himself, he went like a lamb to the slaughter. We know that. But he also knew it was the Father's will for him to do so. It was written and he fulfilled the prophecies regarding the Messiah. He was not "God in the flesh," one manifestation equal to one or two other 'manifestations.' Also known by some as persons. But it's for you to realize that while Jesus came from heaven, he did not come as "God" in human form inhabiting a body of flesh he couldn't get out of as "God."
     
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  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue I'm found.

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    Isaac was not the sacrifice Jehovah God wanted for all mankind, since Isaac was not perfect. But Abraham's faith was tested and his obedience pleased Jehovah.
    Hebrews 11:17-19 says, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and in a sense, he did receive Isaac back from death."
     
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  3. tigger2

    tigger2 Member

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    A criticism I have been confronted with concerns the rendering of Rev. 5:10 in the NWT. Most translations have "reign upon [epi] the earth" or similar renderings.

    The NWT has: " ... and they are to rule as kings over [epi] the earth."

    The NT Greek word in question ("upon" or "over") is epi (ἐπὶ ).

    The scripture is:

    (King James Version) Revelation 5:10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on [epi] the earth.” - cf. most translations.

    (Darby) Revelation 5:10 and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over [epi] the earth.

    (AT - Smith-Goodspeed) Rev. 5:10 ...and they are to reign over the earth.

    (C.B. Williams) ... and they will rule over [epi] the earth.

    (W.F. Beck) ... and they will rule as kings over [epi] the earth.

    So the question is: what does epi mean?

    Well, NT Greek dictionaries give the major meaning as "on" or "upon." However a significant alternate is "over."

    For example of the 54 times that epi is rendered as "over" in the NASB, the following have to do with ruling over or having authority over:

    Luke 1:33; 9:1; 19:14; 19:27; Acts 7:18; 7:27; Ro. 9:5; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 2:7; 3:6; 10:21; Rev. 2:26; 9:11; 13:7; 17:18.

    Sticking with Revelation alone we find:

    Revelation 2:26 `He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER [EPI] THE NATIONS; - NASB. Also KJV; NKJV; RSV; TEV; ASV; and many more.

    Revelation 9:11 They have as king over [epi] them, the angel of the abyss; - NASB. Also KJV; NKJV; RSV; TEV; ASV; and many more.

    Revelation 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over [epi] every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. - NASB. Also KJV; NKJV; RSV; TEV; ASV; and many more.

    Revelation 17:18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over [epi] the kings of the earth." - NASB. Also KJV; NKJV; RSV; TEV; ASV; and many more.

    Furthermore in all other cases in the KJV where 'reign' and epi are used together it always means 'over':

    Luke 1:33; 19:14; 19:27; Romans 5:14; Rev. 17:18.

    It is not inappropriate, therefore, to use "over" at Rev. 5:10 also.

    In fact, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon notes specifically that epi "A. with the GENITIVE .... I. of Place; and 1. of the place on which; .... d. fig. used of things, affairs, persons, which one is set over, over which he exercises power .... Rev. v. 10;" - p. 231, Baker Book House, 1977.
     
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  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Here is the Jewish interpretation, which to me makes more sense because of the events covered and the names of the towns involved, some of which did not exist or went by different names during Jesus' time. Also, the ending of Deutero-Isaiah mandated the close following of the Law, which are the 613 Commandments as found in Torah, and the Church did not do that since the Law does not apply to Gentiles:
    It is argued that the "servant" represents the nation of Israel, which would bear excessive iniquities, pogroms, blood libels, anti-judaism, antisemitism and continue to suffer without cause (Isaiah 52:4) on behalf of others (Isaiah 53:7,11–12). Early on, the servant of the Lord is promised to prosper and "be very high". The following evaluation of the Servant by the "many nations, kings", and "we" Isaiah 52:15 is quite negative, though, and bridges over to their self-accusation and repentance after verse 4 ("our"). Then, the Servant is vindicated by God, "because he bared his soul unto death". On the other hand, it is argued that the "servant" in this song might be an individual.

    Some believe the individual to be Hezekiah, who, according to Isaiah 38:5, lived another 15 years (i.e., "prolonging his days") after praying to God while ill (i.e., "acquainted with grief"). His son and successor, Manasseh, was born during this time, thereby allowing Hezekiah to see his "offspring."...
    Isaiah 53 - Wikipedia
     
  5. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Like my previous post noted, Israel cannot be the suffering servant because, "The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

    Moreover, numerous ancient rabbis confirmed Isaiah 53 was speaking about the Messiah, and Israel the country is no Messiah.

    Early Rabbinic Quotes on Isaiah 53 speak of the Messiah

    What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53 - Hope In Messiah


    Also,

    The Rabbis' Dilemma: A Look at Isaiah 53 • Jews for Jesus
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    From the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, which is not affiliated with any relighion or denomination, here's what is says about the Suffering Servant accounts: The figure in Deutro-Isaiah who bears suffering in hope of redemption, perhaps an individual, but understood as Israel in exile. It was applied to Jesus.

    Anyhow, I don't really have to time to continue this, so let me just finish with this, namely that if we summarize the entire Book of Isaiah, it sorta reads like this: Jews did not keep the Law closely enough, they were punished and sent into exile, whereas many years later a remnant returned and was told by God that they must fully observe the Law (all 613 Commandments). Simply put, that cannot be directly applied to Jesus and the Church, as even Jerome's Bible Commentary states.

    OTOH, to "prefigure" Jesus, yes.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Oh sure, I believe I did not jot everyhting down that I found as though I were looking to prove something. I suppose then that if the translation is right that you now acknowledge that Jesus is God in the flesh.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is a far fetched fantasy. The 144,000 are going to the same place we are on earth.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I have refuted those false idea many times. Have you not seen that before?
     
  10. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said he came for fulfill the Law, not abrogate or abolish it. No one can keep the entire law. Jesus reduced to to two laws, which he said fulfills the entire law. Love God and love your neighbor.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It was this picking & choosing of which Laws to follow that lead to the punishment as found in Isaiah. For example, Peter in his dream covered in Acts concluded that the kosher Laws need not be followed, and yet several of the Laws directly deal with keeping kosher. At the end of Isaiah, the necessity of keeping kosher is repeated.

    BTW, I'm sorta just playing devil's advocate here, which might lead to some misunderstanding of where I'm actually coming from, so I think it's best for me just to move on. :)
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'm sorry, but no one has refuted that argument. To claim that Jesus is God, is blasphemy. It is a clear breach of the first Commandment.

    If you can give me one single statement from either God or his son that they are one and the same God...i.e. separate but equal parts of a "godhead" ( a word that does not appear in any part of scripture) then you might be able to claim refutation. As it stands, all you have is very weak implication.
    There is more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.
     
  13. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    No, rather to deny he is God is what constitutes blasphemy.

    No again. Jesus is the God who gave the Ten Commandments. He is the Great "I am" of Exodus and John 8:58
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Ok, so you read your own argument?

    I mean, read it again, if you are saying that jesus is the son of g-d.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can you tell me where I might find one single admission from Jesus that he is God or his Father's equal?
    Where will I find the name Jehovah as identifying Jesus Christ? Where will I find Jehovah calling his son "the only true God" as Jesus did of his Father? (John 17:3)

    Why would the apostles identify only the Father as their God and not Jesus? (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) The trinity has no support in the Bible except in vague verses where they see it implied. Without a direct statement...the trinity is a blasphemous addition that officially, and after much controversy, entered "Christianity" over 300 years after Jesus died.

    Jesus is not Almighty God although he has divine origins.

    Here is how Exodus 3:13-15 reads in the Tanach...
    "And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
    God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
    And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God [יְהֹוָ֞ה] of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

    You will see there that Jehovah's name never meant "I AM". His name is a statement of his intentions to "BE" whatever he needs to be in order to accomplish his will. He did not need to tell his own people that he existed, because they had already witnessed his powerful works in rescuing them from Egyptian slavery...the 10 plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire to guide them day and night. They had no reason to doubt his existence.


    In John 8:58, Jesus is answering a question about his age. He was saying that he existed before Abraham. There is no relationship between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 except in the minds of trinitarians. Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am"? (I am the way the truth and the life"....."I am the bread from heaven") Was he claiming to be God in those verses?

    There is way more scripture that disproves the trinity than ever supports it. If you understood the mechanics of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, you would see why it is impossible for God to incarnate and then die.
     
    #235 Deeje, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
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  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    What? You also said that anyone can be called 'g-d', without specification, yet you say Jesus can't be g-d.

    Your argument makes no sense.
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Anyways Im outta this debate, it's complete nonsense.
     
    #237 Desert Snake, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Satan is g- d, moses is a g-d, Beezlebub is g-d, in fact anyone or anything can be g-d, therefore Jesus can't be g-d!

    Great argument!:thumbsup:
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You just don't get it do you? I am thinking that perhaps 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 applies here.

    You just refuted your own argument....there are many "gods" in Greek mythology who are deemed to be "divine mighty ones" because that description fits the Greek word "theos". The Greeks had gods and demi-gods all of whom had a name.
    Jesus had a name too, but not once is he called Yahweh. He has many names, titles and roles in God's arrangement, but he is not, and never has been, the Almighty. He was "sent" by his God to accomplish a difficult mission on earth, which he completed perfectly.....and then returned to heaven where he continued to call his Father "my God". (Revelation 3:12) Does one part of God worship an equal part of himself? I think you need to examine the validity of your own argument.

    When Jehovah said that he would make Moses "god" to Pharaoh, he was doing so from Pharaoh's point of view, not bestowing deity on Moses. When the Bible calls satan "theos" its not saying that he is the Almighty. Jesus is also a "god" (theos) in the Greek definition of the word......but he is not "ho theos".

    There is one Almighty God who is identified in Psalm 83:18 as YHWH ...יְהֹוָ֞ה
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    We don't have the same God belief, this argument is just semantics, at this point.

    Exodus 3:4-14

    John 5:37

    You can try to explain those verses in Exodus as an angel saing 'I', so forth, even though the text directly says 'God'.
     
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